im not saying its better,

but if anybody wants to pay for a new babysitter and find a way to manipulate the time space continum for me to enact the plan perfectly and by the letter (which again really isnt laid out in terms of how to deal with children in the book, unless you can tell me what page) then ill do it.

also does anybody want to come to where i live to be the IM, because i dont have one of those either...



anybody?


okay then.

i get the plan, i understand the plan.

but somethimes the resources arent there to do everything to perfection. and i think sometimes people dont realize that.

should i allow my son to be further be traumatized by this then as well? that just doesnt make sense. its already bad enough as it is. it is IMPOSSIBLE to go NC with my wife. again unless the above mentioned things can happen.


additionally, my therapist, whos familiar with and very fond of dr. harleys work says that getting it as close as i can may end up being beneficial, since shes as far long and theoretically as close to the affair ending. shes had over 20 years experiance and seen over 2000 cases where infidelity has been the theme or cause. of those 2000, only one went on to marry. and he was miserable.
thing i love bout her too is she gives me great insight to a womans mind and what shes thinking when certain things happen...



and in alot of ways, its far better than nothing.

this affair is going to die. and she know where to go, and if shes willing to do what i laid out in my plan B letter, ill be one of the few successes on these boards....of which i dont see to many sometimes....

Good for you elph

ill be one of the few successes on these boards....of which i dont see to many sometimes....



Uhhhhh, dude, most of the "successes" from this site drift away into glorious, loving, well-founded marriages. Only the marriage-supporting "junkies" (like yours truly) hang around after their own problems are resolved.

BTW: The "fog" is terrible when it surrounds a WS; it's that much worse when it envelops a BS.

Good luck to you.

im wondering why your laughing.

one of the things that strikes me is that since people come to this board looking for answers, it would seem to me that those who succeed in saving their marriage should post on it, to give people hope. or advice.

of course the overwhelming amount of posts go in the opposite direction, and sometimes it seems that there is a lot of negativity of people just want others to just give up. especially if the program cant be followed to the letter.

i dont have and cannot get an IM. should i just give up then? throw all of it out the window because of logistics? or should i take the essence of what dr. harley says and give it the best i can?

not every situation is ideal. thats just the way it is. and I know im not in a BS fog. maybe the first month out. but ive gathered my facts, followed my plan. watched the patterns that is presented with their affair. gone to my IC. ive prepared myself to move on and often find when my wife does things that tries to get her to cake eat or string me along, recognizing those and not taking them at face value.

event though my wife is cracked out now in her affair, ive seen the moments of clarity (as dr. harley calls it) shes just not there yet. but the loss of her best friend and time with her son will affect her. her family shutting her out will affect her. its already having an effect on their relationship. its only a matter of time.

and i knew this. thats why the focus of my plan A (like most) was to meet her emotional needs, to show her that ive taken the things shes said to heart. that ive changed for the better. the only thing i couldnt do was change her feeling for him. but that seems, will happen on its own.

elph,

You make good arguments about the practical problems with implementing a good Plan A and B. And I admire you for confronting the OM, though I think you dodged a bullet.

But do me this favor. Don't go in the opposite direction and rationalize that you should go to Plan C. Dr. H says, and experience confirms for me, that Plan C is the most likely to lead to divorce and no reconciliation.

If you go to Plan B, limit contact with WW as much as possible. Is your son in daycare? If so, ask the baby sitter if she is willing to use her home as the drop off point for you and your WW. If your wife calls, don't chat her up and solve your problems together. Say virtually nothing. See what I mean?

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again)
Her: WW, 34
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In Plan B since 11/15/10
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
Wife files for D: 02/10/11
Hope is fading, but still there

totally get what your saying. and really im on the same level as that.

im not rationalizing a plan C. im dealing with the cards that are dealt.

with the exception of son based things, ill have no contact. drop offs and pick ups will be brief. no how as your day. no hows work going, and certainly nothing from me. everything she needs to know about me and my stance is in the plan B letter. its clear and concise with no margin for confusion. then again were talking about somebody whos in the fog so.....

as for the daycare. my wifes aunt who does it comes over to my house because we have aback yard and everything he needs vs. her apt.

but he'll start preschool soon, so that will change the schedule a little.

we have meeting with the mediator soon too. everythings been pretty much divided and is realtivly cut and dry. the only thing that has to be settle is making sure the OM has no contact with my son, same with his wacked out family.

and it seems (of course with a grain of salt) that my wife is almost on board with the idea...more so from recent voice mail ive over heard, it may be a nother tool for her to use to help limit contact with the OM for her.


weird? yeah.

but one of my wifes biggest problems has always been needing others to do things for her.

when we broke up years ago she dated this real [censored]. he was physically and emotionally abusive. but she couldnt get herself out of the relationship. so what ended up happening is we eventually got proof and sent him to jail for 6 months...that allowed her the ability to get away.

i almost sense that itll be the same way with the affair, since they work together.

itll be a combination of our son, him possibly getting transfered, her family, a coworker (whos been my spy) whos really strongly opinionated and more than willing to help her, to get her out when shes ready....

My icon was to indsicate my reaction to the facts that you've been on this ite roughly three months; have never fully complied with the principles, practices and advice made available to you; and yet have the rather odd inclination to point out that there are not a large number of "recovered" folks posting here.

It would similarly strike you as notable that there are not a lot of healthy individuals hanging out in hospital wards, I would suppose?

curious,

how have i never fully complied with the principals?

The recovered folks who post on this board, and there are many of them, advise a by-the-book MB plan. Why?

Because it works.

Sometimes somebody who uses Plan C is fortunate to recover their M anyway. It still wasn't their best chance. You, too, can choose Plan MB or Plan C. It's a free country.

For me, by the time I invested all the time, effort, and hurt in trying to R my M, I didn't want to do it half-way. I wanted my chances to be as good as possible. Not everyone feels the same way.

I don't want to do it half way. But I also have NO choice.

How am I supposed to do the plan without an IM?

Should I just give up becaue I don't have one?

Or should I give it my best and work with what I've got?

As well i still don't remember to much in the book of how to deal with the fact that there are kids involved.
My therapist and the one were taking our son to suggest minimizing a change in routine to minimize the trauma this is bringing about.

Any suggestions on that?
She lives in a different city and I've gone over several different scenarios to satisfy all those prerequisites. What I've got minimizes contact while maximizing benefits to my son.

I'm not trying to discredit the mb program. I'm trying to follow it as best as possible, but there are simply logistic problems.

In a perfect world, sure no problem. But it's not. But I think,all things considered,I've done a pretty awesome job at adhering to the principals.

And I'm not compromising.

I'm having to (unfortunately) adapt to what I've been given.

Elph,

My .02. I don't think anyone believes that you're discrediting MB at all. I certainly don't read that. Many here have struggled with IMs as well, so while you're discouraged, don't give up on the IM. Maybe a little brainstorming might help? Meaning, maybe throw as much against the wall here, even crazy ideas, and see if you can get help with those seemingly outrageous ideas? Many have done this right here...and, solutions found? Yes, and NOT perfect.

Do you belong to any organization via work or personally? Any church or local anything? Think less about family, and more about people that would objectively take on a task for someone they a) know but, b) not emotionally invested in that person (you).

You don't want someone emotionally charged...but, rather, someone who "gets" the concept and can simply be a filter in a very non-emotional way. If you think about it, this task as an IM should be very little as far as time and involvement. Quite the opposite.


You provide a list via Plan B letter, and your IM simply screens any communication for agreement. If no agreement, they delete.

Other than that, it's pick up and drop off. I am over-simplifying, but try to think about it as uncomplicated as possible. Just the facts.


Maybe that will help give you some ideas of who can do that for you for awhile.

Some people who had no one else to be an IM, have used IM's from here. All communication is done online, so even with someone in another time zone, it works fine.

If there was a serious emergency with one of the kids, you would break Plan B for that, and C the WS directly. Anything else can be handled either through an IM or an attorney.

Interesting ideas.
Funny though, my wife is far from tech savvy. She barley emails.

As for the attorney. She doesn't have one. Seriously. We've been using mine fir the paper work and that's it. She doesn't feel she'll need one and most stuff will be handle through the mediator.

What's that tell you.

And Im pretty sure she still hasn't filed her response to legal separation. From early June!

so i had to discard the plan B for the time being...i know WTF?

things were going pretty well, and have been pretty seemless...until last weekend.

per instructions from our therapists, we had to introduce my son to mommys house and his new room together. that went finehe liked it, we went home.
later that evening he lost his stuff. he started crying and wanting his mommy.
"bring her back"
"go get mommy and bring her home"
"call mommy and come home"

the worst sounds ive ever heard.EVER.

he gives me the phone and i call her. i put her on speaker so she could hear her son, the agony in his voice. and my wife lost it. she was crying, she tried to talk him down, but eventually couldnt stay on the line. he eventually burned out and fell asleep.
the next day, a repeat of the situation when i picked him hp to bring him home. the whole 1/2 hour car ride. again she called to check on him and heard the distress in his voice.

i am begining to believe that that mayve been the light that started to shine through the fog.

Tuesday night he spent his first night there. to ease his anxiety i stayed till he fell asleep. as he did this my wife started to open up. she informed me that shes trying to get out of the situations. shes going to take a leave of absence. she mentioned a few things about him and how shes trying to get space to breathe.

but the one thing that stuck out to me is she she essentially tried to break up with him he said
"im not the kind of guy you just send away"

and then mentioned not giving up.

she told me a few other things, but she also mentioned that she still feels legitamatly lost and depressed. she got off her prozac, but is getting back on it.

during the last half hour i was there,with my wifes phone on vibrate and in the other room, he texted her 7 times and called 6. i left about 10pm , and then he showed up at 1030, furious because she hadnt gotten back to him. she ws exhausted and wanted to go to sleep. she told me he had a look in his eyes shed never seen before and that she was not only scared for her self, but for my son who was there. he ouldnt leave so she had to calm him down to get him out of there..

suffice to say, to her that crossed the line.

now im not totally going for this 100% and patternes suggest theyll get back together and break up a few more times before its all said and done. and she also mentioned that it means were gonna get back together.

but right now i fear for her safety and the safety of my son when hes there.

the guy is a sociopath. my therapist called it. but she said he wouldnt do something like that for another few weeks.

im hoping in the long run ive provided that safe harbor that plan A is suppose to create. and as much as i want to ignore her, this takes precenednt

im sure hes just a few away from becoming physically violent, but ive put steps in place at her work to protect her with the people i know and HR.

any advice from the vets here, i dont know if ive seen this kinda dituation before...

Elph,

Your reluctance to deploy Plan B, and to deploy it properly, is only ADDING to the drama in your life, and that of your son.

You got crickets today because the plan of action hasn't changed.

Continuing to interact with her while she is actively wayward is only going to make things worse for you, and for your son.


YOU need to quite being a coward, and go into a real Plan B. You need to get your head out of your backside, and do what it takes to protect your son from the affair, and from this OM.

Whatever falls on WW is the consequence of her adultery, period.

What should you do? What you've dang well already been told; go into a Dark Plan B until your WW stops waffling and cuts off all contact with POSOM.

Period.

That won't change.

Do it.

So your telling me if he physically abuses my wife I should let that happen? Because that's what I'm anticipating and my therapist as well. He fits the profile Of a sociopath to a t.

I'm sorry, but for as much wrong as my wife has dine she doesn't deserve that.
I don't see how me not pulling away adds to the drama of him going over to my wifes place and acting like a madman while my son is there.
The OM is causing the drama, I'm trying to protect my family.

She's trying to pull away from him, she's just very weak about it. As well we ( my therapist and I) get the sense that he would also go after my son

I don't think Harley or anybody else would condone that corse of action.

I want to save my marriage, but not at the expense of watching my wife get
abused.

You wanna go back to crickets?


You know why people aren't replying? Because you don't listen. You make excuse after excuse after excuse.

You. Don't. Listen.

Did she come home after he came over acting like a psycho?

NO.

And as long as you are there to dust her off and put her back on her feet, she. will. keep. going. back. to. him.

And the damage of all this will continue to be lumped onto you and your son.

Here is what YOU need to get; you want the OM to cause drama, and you need to not freaking clean up his messes.

You, sir, are enabling her affair, and his abusive behaviors.

That's right; your continued support is allowing this to continue.

You are propping this up.

And it will continue until YOU QUIT SUPPORTING IT.


Quit hiding behind your son, quit hiding behind your danged "therapist" and do the right damn thing.

You are wasting time by not listening. You are wasting time by arguing.

QUIT CLEANING UP YOUR WIFE SO THAT SHE CAN RETURN TO HER ABUSIVE AFFAIR PARTNER!

She needs to fall flat on her face, or nothing will change!

If she wants you to be responsible for her actions, she will end her affair and come home!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

Hi there,

I am very sorry your son is having some much trouble adjusting, be honest don't let him believe something that isn't going to happen..
Let your wife deal with the heartache she has created......
If you are truly worried about the OM hurting your wife, have a friend stay with her for a few weeks.........just so she just has someone else there...
I agree, she has made this mess and the more uncomfortable for her the sooner she will wise up........
Let that process happen.....the sooner the better.......he won't hurt her, he doesn't want to end up in jail........he is trying to control her and she will have to deal with that herself.......
Don't get involved, she needs a big wake up call, if you are there to protect her, she doesn't have to deal with the decision to stay with him or dump him.....she will feel safe, that is something you don't want you want her to be scared......you want her to see him for what he is and for her to see you as a calm controlled man..........
Don't stoop to his level........
Focus on your son.........he is your responsibility right now, not her, she has chosen something different for herself, offer to keep your son until she gets things straightened out in her life, if she feels that loss as well it should wake her up
good luck and be careful....
jessi

If you feel your son is threatened, file a restraining order on behalf of your son - talk with the police about what can be done.

Having worked with shelter-women, I can tell you this - they keep going back even AFTER THEY'VE BEEN BEATEN UP!!!!

A lot of times they'll flee the home during the abuse and LEAVE THEIR CHILDREN WITH THE ABUSER!

If you truly feel this is where the situation is leading, get your therapist involved in reporting suspected abuse to the police. NOW.

The more you try to rescue your wife from him, the more you doom her to him.

STOP BREAKING PLAN B!