Hope it's more productive this time!

Having a good week and another good weekend. She was drawn enough to me Wed night for SF. We spent a 12hr day with the kids. She enjoys just being a normal family. Integrated, interested in everyone, working together. We were dang dog tired but stayed up extra late to get close.

I am not afraid to explain what hurts and not sit back and cry or accept foggy BS.

I really like my PC (29yr M) and our MC (36yr M). Sad to say, I have a level of distrust for her PC. No idea her life story or anything, but I have a suspicion she is a divorce advocate. She said things like : "As we grow through life we find we need different kinds of relationships as we change." or "As you find your voice, assert yourself and discover more and more what you want to say and who you are he is going to get unhappier and unhappier."
Is that a certitude? What a terrible thing to say about someone you haven't met except through the foggy and confused rants of a wayward in your office.

Well... wife explained that comment to me as: "You have five top emotional needs. I may discover that feeding those five emotional needs is not who I am. I may not like to fulfill Affection, Family Commitment, H&O, AS, SF as much as you want. Will it ever be enough? Will you like the way I do it?"

Hmmmm.... I didn't really stand for that.

First of all: I will love to see her happy. I desire for her to figure out who she is and what she wants. She has had a couple of more effective days. Gotten up early, set about some tasks, fulfilled them, laughed, scheduled two exercise classes. And I appreciate seeing her have a good day.

Second of all: what kind of position is it to say: "I may not want to fill your ENs" Do you want to be in a relationship? I used to say things like that ten years ago. Once, I said, "I can't chatter with you about feelings and stuff like one of your girlfriends."

So imagine now (don't imagine... I heard this babble) her saying: "I am discovering who I am and I do not have the will to fulfill your needs for Affection, Family COmmitment, Honesty and Openess, sexual fulfillment and attractive spouse." Femi-nazi's may throw up their hands in revolt over SF and AS needs, but surely they claim to believe in the first three! AF, HO, FC.

I think she was trying to defend her therapist whack job. Who seems to be convinced its her job to liberate the downtrodden wife and place all ranges of stereotypes and chauvinistic images upon a husband she has not met.

If she can survive the advocacy of this counselor, she ought to be pretty strong in her belief in our M. Its up to her to figure this out with all the foggy advice around her. Its not easy finding people in the kind of long term intimate relationship that lasts. Very few relatives and close friends seem to have these fulfilling happy marriages. Divorce and infidelity are all around us.

For myself, I have learned on my journey that its once thing to be determined to never divorce, to remain committed and devoted (as I always was) but quite another to build the sort of relationship where you could proudly say we remained married for life because it was fulfilling and the best M for both of us.... not just because we were determined to stay married. All around us are advisers, family, friends and books and culture that lets us off the hook and tempts us to succumb to the easier way out. Divorce. Go seek a new relationship that "might" make you happier, albeit temporarily. No thank you!

Building, and creating the relationship you both want based on a foundation of youth / midlife / parenting / struggles and joy.... that seems easier that starting over with a search amongst a million strangers in the world.

Great post Stretch.

I hear ya on everything you were saying, but gonna let others spearhead any opinions that could look like advice..This confusion you are describing is just to familiar to me...

Or maybe Im having a spell.. Lol

Sounds like you are going through it, but you are doing the work..

Doing the work. Keeping my foot off the gas so much.

My therapist said he learned something early in his career: "Do not work harder than the client." Its the only way he could practice for 30years.

Same thing in my case, I have been working harder than her. Disappointed as her progress is so slow.

Ironically, as I push less hard, and just take care of my family and myself, and work on myself as a husband, father and a man.... and stop acting dependant and needy... she shows more progress.

I agree!

Now, how to separate your wife from the individual counselor...

Again it seems so familiar, but I had to comment anyway.

Is your need to see results being traded of as dependant and needy? Like, "Ok he backed off and is letting me think, do, whatever"...and that might be dangerous?

Not wanted to cause problems, but it does seem that she needs to find a new counsellor. That is a tough one, but here is a suggestion.

Get all three together,(if you can agree this problem should be solved and that what needs to happen eventually is for you all to be cured, and not need them), and see if they want you to be returned to the marital state. That would show the heart of the group. Many counselors are attached to thier patients emotionally, and this would reveal that unhealthy problem. The goal is for the patient not to need them anymore.

It would be best if you could at least show your W that there IS a difference, between Marriage counseling and IC, and the MC will not take away from her personal mental health, because marriage is an institution that is very much all about that, strengthening each other.

But one authority over that would be the best, human counsel, sure if its good. Taken with a grain of salt. We are finite nor can we really remove all emotion in objectivity but yet include it in advice. Thats God stuff.

Praying for you guys to find a way out of the woods

Acts of love everyday sure help.

Finding the time and space to "just be"

School started this week, so we'e going ot get back into a groove the next couple of weeks.

Been a while. My posts are way down.

WE are settling in to much more easy phase. Less drama. Emotionally stable. MC was really good the last two times.

I wonder if we just got exhausted from all these months and are subconsciously taking some mental breaks

School started. She seems to have a better routine and more effective days. Getting her things done. I hope she sticks through the exercise classes and attends them all to the end. Also, I hope she is finding ways to shed some pounds besides the exercise classes.

I was on a business trip for four nights. She expressed that she "was sad she didn't miss me more. Sad that she wasn't more excited to see me come home."

A couple weeks ago she had a mosquito bite on her finger. She said she was taking her ring off because the bite bothered her with the ring on. She said she told me this so I wouldn't freak out.

Well, she did not put the ring back on. I asked her today, "why didn't you put your ring back n?"

She said, "I can't. But thanks for noticing. But I just can't. We can talk about it more later or maybe in MC tomorrow."

I just shut up. And did a couple hours of exercise. Give myself time to think.

I am sick of a half-marriage. She is depressed--doesn't know how to work on it. And she is just about to throw away a great opportunity to have loving, committed, devotion and intimacy for all of our days. Then the depression willl still be there -- only worse, I predict. My strength, her family's strength, some third party that doesn't yet exist in her circle, is just about the only thing that can help pull her out.

Her vision of a divorce is half a divorce too. One where maybe we share the house... or we have family dinner on Sundays... I guess she wants me to keep paying the bills, etc. Well, not for me!! That won't work.

Full Marriage or Full Divorce. There's only a few short months left for her to decide.

I understand, seems passionless doesn't it? All this seems like she is sitting on a fence?

I surely hope that with all the grey areas life has in store for everybody, that this can become on area of strong conviction, that you are married and embracing it.

Too many choices and renters out there, and they tempt away with false promises, and grass is greener crap.

Keep at it brother

How long have you been at it Stretch? close to 6 months yet? If so, consider plan B and she moves out.

she sounds like my xwh, who also thought we'd have a friendly divorce (after he did VILE unfriendly things). Same thing, Sunday dinners together (with me cooking..NOT), live in same neighborhood (no way), all be good friends (including with hsi affair partner(s)), and I shut that down quick. YOU shut that down too. Paint an honest, gentle UGLY picture of what reality will be Stretch.

She needs a gentle nudge. Meanwhile, you go off and go workout and let her see you doing that. Go out, look great, smell great and just say , "I've had enough. I need a workout". Go back to being Bond. Strong, NO PLEADING or begging at all, looking handsome, smell good, dress good, and charm her. Ask her questions and then say nothing about yourself. That's what he would do. A ww would not be able to remain wayward around Bond.

I fear she is nearing that plan B timeline mark. When was the last time you snooped? She is acting like somebody who just got a fix of an om. Something's not right here with your ww.

Geez Peachy, I used to cut a good figure in a Tux, and I think that was what my late wife liked. Besides my calm cool demeanor which i also modeled after Bond.

Cool calm and collective, was my motto, and I stared fear in the face many times, just because I would not lie down and had learned that fear would own you, if you let it.

Good advice though, when your dealing with a wayward that is looking for cracks and excuses to slit your throat, and emotional weaknesses to prey upon, because they have no other depth than that which is on the outside.

But I hope his WW can get back to, and appreciate this mans soul, and maybe B is a good idea, and a harsh dose of reality is in order. It at least is a start towards respect, and stretch has waited a long time for her to get back on board with a real plan for marrige.

Have waited a long time. I like to say the real work did not start until NC broken last April. That's when I got my head screwed on straight.

B will be harsh and dark! Its a full split. My sister thinks I should even go after full custody with her this sick. I imagine exactly half custody. Split assets. But this house is certainly to be sold. A new start for us both.

But B will be harsh reality. JANUARY.

On Sunday we were with her extended family. Cousins, Uncles, Aunts, parents. I told her later, "I would miss your family. Its a shame." She said, "You don't have to miss them, you don't have to leave them at all. My divorced mom and dad were both there."

So that shows me she has this dandy divorce swirling around in her head. I said, "Maybe that works for them, that won't be for me."

(And it it doesn't work well for her parents by the way -- her mom never moved on with her life and her Dad is not really very happy with his current partner.)

Her brain is a mess. Its hard to be strong. But I am. Good day of strength in MC today.

So, is she fogged out? I snoop around. No evidence. This is what I think could be part of the cause... She is working on that book daily. She changed the guitar man's name. But she is working on it, a lot. Its a constant reminder. She worked on a "song" for the book. (something I guess Romance writers do nowadays) its all sad and soulful from the poor guitar man's POV. That crap must have her fogged.

One of the things she had to do in the book was make the husband much much worse because so many of her writer friends would say, "I can't feel sorry for this main character. Her husband seems kind of dorky, but he doesn't deserve his wife to do this..." Ouch. Truth.

So we were planning a weekend together this fall. I picked the weekend, wanted to make plans, and she now said she doesn't want to go.

But, get this audacity, she informs me she is planning a girlfriends weekend with the toxic friends. I explained in MC today that's cruel and thoughtless. "Oh gee... I hadn't considered that."

She says: "I am sad that I don't want to go away for the weekend with you. And I understand that you're hurt if I go off with my girlfriends for a weekend. It makes me sad to know that you will be hurting."

OK. Then. Be a grown-up in a real grown-up relationship and don't be cruel and thoughtless and selfish.

We've also talked a lot about depression. I believe that the reason she tells me things like: "I never feel like I am right. I never hear you support me or say you are sorry. I never see you laugh at my jokes." ... the reason is because she doesn't feel good about herself. That is depression. Well, she says she really wants to work on these things. She is listening and going to try.

Meanwhile, I just gotta stand up for myself. I wanted to cry and cry tonight as I felt rejected and ignored after dinner. But.... that's pathetic. Let her know I hurt really bad. But see me strong and confident.

Dear Stretch123:

I have been following your thread because I relate (from what you've posted) to your wife.

I fear that my husband will have another affair if I become depressed. Or, maybe he won't have an affair; maybe he'll just leave. His OW were "light-hearted" "fun" party-girl types; I will never be that, depressed or not.

I'm not fun; I'm a mess.

And part of me wouldn't blame him; I don't want to be with me sometimes, either.

Certainly not making ANY judgements about what you should or shouldn't do - just watching kind of an "alternate universe" - one set of possibilities that may or may not happen to me.

BV

ahhh, stretch, I really wish I could talk some sense into your W. Divorce will not "fix" her problems, as she seems to believe it will. Plan B may be the wake-up call she needs, but of course there are two possible outcomes: 1.) a restored M or 2.) a divorce. Now, there are plenty of little suboptions - quite honestly the scenario I envision is that she finally pulls her head out of her azz and wakes up, realizes that she doesn't want to lose you, but by the time she does, you are well on your way to personal recovery, your LB$ is drained, and you've already given up on the M.

I'm not a writer, although I am a big reader, and I could imagine writing, you'd kind of have to lose yourself in your characters/story as if you were living it, in order to write believable fiction. As someone who has committed infidelity, I can't stomach seeing it "romanticized" in any way, and I certainly couldn't bring myself to write a story that presented adultery as somehow "acceptable" b/c of how "bad" the H was in the story. Me, I'd write the truth, about how adultery destroys lives, or I'd write my own fantasy about the BH and FWW coming back together despite all odds, but then I guess I wouldn't make Oprah's book club.

Did you ask in MC why she had taken off her ring?

Thx for stopping by WPG.

There is a lot of fantasizing about this Guitar Man in the story. Of course, its a romance novel. But the plotline is that the M is redeemed. Unfortunately she doesn't know how to write that ending now. No idea.

ABout the ring she said, "I just can't. I don't feel safe. It makes me sad that I don't want to put my ring on. I didn't realize how important it is as a symbol to you. An "outward" symbol to other men." (I think she was baiting me to fall into some kind of 'It shows I own you.." trap)

Yes, I think when you go out drinking and dancing with friends... you MUST wear your ring and announce you are unavailable. But other than that... its the internal struggle she has to not even wear it in private... with me... around the children.

Stretch, a suggestion if you'd like to consider it. Change the thrust of:

Let her know I hurt really bad. But see me strong and confident.

Make it more aligned with:

Let her know she is acting hurtfully. But see me strong, confident and undamaged.

Mrs. Stretch will no doubt fill a library of shrinks' notebooks once she sees the necessity to seriously address her issues. But even from way out here it's obvious that she likes to hurt you (Anti-Daddy issues? Who knows?), and then ingenuously acknowledge her wrongdoing - with no commitment to stop. Every mark left by her cruelties seems to be a testament to her effectiveness in spreading her gloom, despair, and unhappiness to you. You might want to isolate yourself from that.

Is it possible to "Plan A" her, while "Plan B'ing" yourself? Dunno, wouldn't even want to try. BUT......you may have to.

Saw that NG posted this morning. With eagerness and trepidation I checked to see what he said. He saved the 2x4 today.

I really appreciate both observations.

Instead of: "I am hurt." change that to : "You are acting hurtfully."

And: "These cruelties leave a mark; spreading your gloom and unhappiness."

Instead of filling her shrinks notebook with her depression.... her method appears to be to spread it upon me.

Good stuff.

Talked to her Daddy for a while this morning. He wants to help. And doesn't want us to split. And he thinks his daughter hasn't tried enough or changed this year. And she also has "always felt rules don't apply to her and she was always special." His words.

Talked to my therapist today about the realities of splitting up a marriage. Learned a lot. We are a no-fault state FWIW. My therapist is pro marriage. But he sees I have tried hard for a long time and she doesn't want to join me. I can give her what she wants and feel some self worth. And go find what I want. A full marriage. Full love. Full intimacy.

My clear headed understanding of my wife now is:
I don't make her "feel good". This M doesn't "feel good." She searches for things that make her "feel good" in her effort to overcome depression. Rather than making herself "feel good" she wants something external to do it for her. Like a new puppy, a new baby, a new boy to be giddy about, some alcohol, some ice cream.

I have matured a lot in this last year and she has not. Continues to conjeur up new things that I do that she says she cannot stand. So she will toss me aside and seek some other guy to temporarily give her a high.

I am still in it. I told her Dad in no uncertain terms -- I am here by her side, and ready to devoted, I want to be by her side when the grandkids come home... when her parents pass away... when the kids get married... when we get sick in old age.

But I am rejected.

So foolish. And selfish.

Stretch,

I think many would agree that you wife is spewing typical fogbabble (the ring, not happy, etc.) and are surprised when you say that there is no "real" OM in the picture. Could it really be the stupid book with OM fantasies and toxic friends?

I'd hazard yes. And I'd be leery of her going out to bars with TF's without a ring on. Red flag there, man.

It's going to take you putting your foot down, sadly. As-is, she's accustomed to doing whatever she wants and the crap about the ring and making you sad is just abusive and she knows it.

My opinion? She

1. Quits the dime-store novel crap.
2. Quits the toxic friends.
3. Has an honest discussion with her psychiatrist about her condition, past and present, because I doubt she has
4. Puts on the ring and commits to a recovery

--or--

1. She drags her [censored] down to the courthouse the next day and files for a divorce.

Your wife is/was a lot like mine, more than you'd probably guess. And if she wanted a divorce, she would have filed for one. Why rock the boat when you can have the best of both worlds?

But, I'm sorry, the book about OM is just plain nuts and she KNOWS that it rubs you the wrong way. That's why she keeps saying that it's supposed to have a happy ending with the marriage recovered. It's BS, and you should call her on this.

Sorry this is rambling.