Hello everyone,

Its been some time since I was last on. I feel like its an impossible situation and it's either:
1.Going to end very VERY badly
OR
2.Going to drag on indefinitely till something gives
(DJ ALERT)
I guess all I am looking for are some fresh opinions or perspectives. Its been over a year since DDay #1, and ostensibly over a year and a half since the ending of the A's; theres been many more DDays since-a lot of trickle truthing, everytime with assurances that there's "no more". We had 5 counseling sessions with Steve last month-they started well but led to further disaster and hopelessness.

I did warn Steve that even if FWW seems sincere and wanting recovery (she booked the sessions), she's still deceptive, selfish and foggy (the last "new truth" was less than 2 weeks before these calls with Steve). His diagnosis early on was there's no way to extract the truth and she was EXTREMELY independent.

There's little or no remorse for the insincerity of the past 14 months (post DDay)-let alone the past 7 years and the A's. There's more distance than ever before since after the DDays. She's gone into emotional shut down and back to avoidance (if she gave even an ounce of importance to Steve's advice, she'd be trying hard to be less independent and more open & O&H-yet the opposite has occurred since). I cant do this anymore-for 10 months of the past 14 I tried so hard to do the hard pulling, move into recovery, read, learn, research, find patience through her lies and deceit, give her yet another chance at the truth. Through most of that she played along, playing me even while knowing what she hid and lied about or was not sincere in following through on. I cannot believe how stubborn one can be-or is it just selfish (I know she can be VERY stubborn)?
My current theory is that this way there's nothing (more) for her to lose, she knows I can't walk away (she thinks) because of the kids and my commitment to the program and because of my own A. She can't allow herself to be vulnerable nor reveal the grisly details of her A's-let alone become transparent in her feelings to me. She also doesn't want to be lonely and without financial support-so she carries on with what is the best of a bad situation. Unresolved and unrecovered but still a marriage, still the kids, still the financial support... and she gets to keep her secrets and her independent behaviour while believing that the M is now "protected"

I do not believe she can or will ever want to change anything-which means she is still in the fog, and in pre-A emotional state of appearing to be attached and yet being extremely independent and emotionally distanced.

We've had very good months when we were trying together, times of closeness. But of late (the past month and a half since counseling) its all downhill.

Before the usual questions, most XPs are in place, its been 8 months since NC, there's nothing detectable going on (except in her head or heart-which are mostly off limits and honestly still very foggy). I cannot for the life of me try moving forward on recovery (or as Steve said-know the injury before you begin to treat it and there's no way I can every know the extent of this wound... ever).

As for polygraph-can't happen (she knows that) for reasons I cannot go into.
Exposure is also impossible (again, I know its worth, but its just not possible).
No theres no physical abuse nor has there ever been any, and no LBs as a direct result of her revealing any new information about the A's. Rather, my reaction has been much muted about new info.
If there was a truth serum, I would gladly give up my entire lifes savings for it.
I do not believe the MB plan or counseling can work on her.

Plan D has been lately on my mind, but I dont know if its going to do her any good-the way she's been this whole time.

I am about to implode, losing every ounce of self-esteem and all of my belief in religion or even many of my principals. I only survive to support my children and 'be around' for her whenever she decides to want to really recover this M. I have no choices and no options left. I am no longer in control of anything in my life but my capacity to earn. The only thing she didnt get in trying to determine an outcome and manipulate everything about the M and R was she doesnt get to control my emotions (she did successfully manipulate them for a very long time during her gaslighting and fogginess).

I am at a loss, I cannot do anything.

Ideas anyone? 2x4's? Anything....

Do I get this correctly, that you had an affair simultaneously? One that lasted for two years, during the entire time she was pregnant with your child, which you are playing down by saying it was just on and off???

You are only talking about how selfish she is and how she doesn't have remorse. How about you? I imagine you have been the most fantastic husband imaginable after your affair came out?!

Please give us some more info.

Some clarifications:

She's known about and researched (with me) the MB program since DDay#2
She admitted even as late as 3 months ago (before this current turmoil started) that she's been extremely foggy - realising this after reading through the forums
The counseling was thrown off course by 2 things:
1. She got pregnant (yes, it was unplanned and we were practicing birth control, no, it couldn't be anyone else)
2. I was extremely disappointed in the approach proposed by the counseling which basically needed us to skip over the 'knowing the truth/knowing the what and the validation' part and launch us into further activities (which had been explained previously to be critical prerequisites to further progress)

Exposure is impossible? Polygraph cant happen?

There ARE things in this world which cannot be done

(1.Flying without a machine or glider
2. Blinking and tranporting yourself into a place by wishing
3. Owning a magic money machine which prints off whatever you need).

But the two things you mentioned are far from impossible.

If you cant accomplish simple tasks, how so you expect to accomplish marriage recovery?

And you can't (???) tell us the reasons why, you say?.

(I refer you again to three actual examples of 'cant' above)

What you mean is you wont.

And therefore I cant help you, because I dont know what you mean

Thank you for your response. A lot of my initial story is covered in my first post.
I didn't say "just" on and off-I guess my first post explains why it was on and off.
No, I wouldn't want to play it down, but I have and have been trying constantly to have her talk to me about my A, the problem of going through that is also covered in my first thread (from 9 months ago).
I haven't been a fantastic husband, you're right, however since DDay 1 I have given my best to follow through on the MB program; in that; I've gone through the entire truth with her, I have clarified and answered in all honesty and with minute detail what I can; I have also explained the why (selfish, no boundaries) and attempted at both validation (for her) and not pinning the blame on her. I cannot break-in emotionally since she still wont let me, she wont ask, she wont bring it up. I cannot rub it in her face if she doesn't want to discuss or allow me a chance to help her heal beyond honesty, transparency and (attempts at) validation.

As I understand it, the Harleys practise a form of behavioural therapy. In contrast to classic therapy, where you are working on the deeper reasons for your actions and emotions, behavioural therapy focuses on what you can do here and now to behave better and most of the time, the emotions will follow.
Searching your soul if you had a bad relationship with your mother can be very nice (for one, you have someone to blame for your crappy lifestyle) but it does not make you fall in love with your spouse again.

This is the reason Harleys behavioural approuch works so well, because it indeed focuses on activity - what you can actively do to make the marriage better. It makes the spouses like each other again, which in turn improves all aspects of the relationship. Looking into the past to who is to blame just doesn't do that, which is the reason, marriage counseling is often less than effective.

Steve Harley understood the reasons why not and accepted them as being issues we cannot counter effectively in our situation. Where we live, there are no polygraphs and a trip to a country where we can get it done is costly and currently not financially possible.
As for exposure; it has direct legal implications in this country which would ensure the ending of the marriage and/or harsher conditions for the both of us.

@happyheart
I agree with your statement. And yes-that behavioural therapy has led to vast improvements in our relationship. However, it comes to a point where if there is no sense of sincerity or trust/problems with dishonesty, specially in the case of there having been A's and trickle truth, its almost impossible to move forward.

PoRH is, after all, a Harley cornerstone. Dishonesty is also counted amongst the major LBs. O&H is definitely an EN for me.

Of the 2 stage process Dr Harley describes, the first stage is ending the A, establishing NC and revealing every bit of info of the A to the BS, the second stage is fulfilling ENs and eliminating LBs. Its been cited far too many times in the forums and in his articles that I dont feel I have to quote it here.

That is not to say ENs shouldnt be fulfilled and that LBs shouldn't be eliminated, but for recovery to even start, the first step is crucial.

bxhubby, I don't understand what you want from the forum. You asked for help, and when offered you have argued about it. If you have had coaching with Steve, why not continue since you preferred what he told you and use it as arguments against our advice.

Scotty, I asked for opinions as well as help. I'm sure many may come here post-counseling. I'm looking for ways to get around dishonesty or find a way to personally move forward/have a plan of action. I'm looking for others who have been here (FWW's or BS's) and how they got past this. As I said, the counseling wasn't something I initiated and, honestly, cannot afford.

Sounds to me like your choices remaining are:

Separation/divorce (read "When to call it quits")

OR

Just don't worry about getting "all the truth" and move forward knowing what you know....using the mb program to attempt to restore love in your relationship and once love is restored perhaps THEN your wife will be more willing to be open with you and/or you won't care so much about the past.



Your wife made the appointments with Steve so PERHAPS she does want to make things better too. Perhaps she's just manipulating you too. We don't really know her so we can't tell. However...if she shortcuts the MB program she's going ot have a harder time getting YOU to fall in love with her....so someday you may have a situation where YOU are done (ready to "call it quits") and she's actually in love with you and willing to do whatever it takes to not see you walk away.

I don't know but wish you well on this journey.

Mr. Wondering

bxh: I can relate to you. My situation was and is somewhat similar in trickletruth. Perhaps worse. We worked with Steve for a while but he did not click with my FWW. We now have a local marital counselor that practices MB principles with us. It is slow very slow going. Excruciating and my FWW will find any reason in the world to cancel a meeting. And its two plus years since my first D-Day. And OM #2 has never been revealed or admitted. I have almost given up more times than I can count and I know the pain of trying.
Some dedicated MB posters have flat told me to give up on marriage. Maybe I should but I have not. I know all about the healing beginning when all the truth is revealed. BUT... sometimes it never is.
Life doesn't always follow a script that you would like it to. So... I slog on and Plan A as best I can. Somedays recently it hasn't hurt at all, today, I hurt a bit. But do I hurt like I did 12 months ago? No. I don't know how I survived. Do I obsess like I did even 8 months ago? No.
I know I can't save my marriage by myself. Do I have a cake eater for a wife? Yes. Is she selfish, self absorbed and insensitive? Yes. Is she in an active A? I cannot find any evidence that she is and would say no. Is she deep undergournd? I don't think so. Is she in love with me? No. Did I lose most of my love for her? Yes. Do I hope it will come back? Sometimes.
Do I feel trapped? Sometimes. Do I feel that there is a shred of a chance that we can someday have a good marriage, the one I always wanted and hopefully that she always wanted? Yes.
Your situation is very tough. I know. Mr. Wondering said it better than I ever could...
"Your wife made the appointments with Steve so PERHAPS she does want to make things better too. Perhaps she's just manipulating you too. We don't really know her so we can't tell. However...if she shortcuts the MB program she's going ot have a harder time getting YOU to fall in love with her....so someday you may have a situation where YOU are done (ready to "call it quits") and she's actually in love with you and willing to do whatever it takes to not see you walk away.

I don't know but wish you well on this journey."

So... I wish you well too. You can hang in there longer than you think. Keep trying the MB principles. Maybe the on line program would be a help. Don't give up if you don't want to. There will never be any guarantees. Just your opinion of yourself. MB is still your best bet.

Blessings
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. But it is more of an arrangement than a marriage.
Attending Counseling following MB Principles - maybe there is hope but other days I wonder if this is not a slow lingering death.

Dear hurtingturkey,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I think I really wanted to hear whether we were an isolated incident (and hence, its more a situation of its "never possible regardless of MB") or whether its possible that trying hard (and harder) isn't always going to produce progressively better results.

I could've almost written many of your statements:

I still don't have the names of OM#1 (maybe 2 or 3) or any of the others other than the OM's I found out about by myself.

It took months and tons of research and even more months of gaslighting and trickletruth for me to finally realise (and helpfully through the forums and Dr Harley's articles and radio) that PA's might be almost never admitted to and logically everything goes against her (EA ONLY) 'stories' which have progressed (i.e. led to DDay's #2,3,4,5,6 ...) only due to my pushing consistently for the truth. The fact that the A's happened years ago and that they ended before discovery helped her greatly in covering everything and anything she could (yet some evidence fell through the cracks).
You'd think that after getting MB and knowing that this is the way to recovery, she'd realise what she needs to do to heal... US. But alas, its not only me who came up with the prognosis of her stubbornness, selfishness and insensitivity (the counselor really hit the nail on the head in just 1 or 2 sessions after some accountability).

Through this all, am I working on myself? Yes, mostly. Is she on herself-on many fronts I'd say yes... but the one or 2 that really matter: HONESTY and SENSITIVITY... no. There are months and very very dark days; I feel like I want to give up, I wish I could, I am yearning for my freedom (for lack of a better term). I wish I had known what I know now when I made the first discoveries. I'd have COLLECTED EVIDENCE and done it for a year even before confrontation.
She's hard-I sometimes despair... I almost cried on reading peppers post on sin leading to dishonesty, to hardening of the heart leading to soullessness/destruction... I hope its not that ... for the both of us. Yet sometimes I feel she'd have to be pretty cold/dead in the heart to not realise some of the things she says or does. Is it possible that 6 or 7 years of being underground and in the fog can do that to a person (even if there weren't A's all along?)

What theories have you and what has helped you most in your own personal recovery?

Yeah...not knowing who OM(s) were would pretty much be a deal breaker with me. Hard to protect yourself against unknown persons. Sure I might try to awhile (as a ruse while I snooped my butt off, solidified my custody case and figured out my finances (rearranged a few things...wink)) but my wife would be tape recorded during every conversation she had with ANYONE until I discovered the truth for myself. Hopefully, she'd talk to someone "in the know" like a best girlfriend or something and I'd get all the truth. If, in time, I couldn't snoop out the truth, perhaps I'd file for divorce so I could deposition her ASAP and try to get the truth out under oath. Maybe the combination of thinking I'm truly done and being under oath will get the names.

I'm sorry I didn't realize the CONTENT of the lies being perpetuated. The identity/identities of OM's is a must (unless, I suppose, they were random guys on the internet she never knew or met in real life). IMO, SHE can't recover her love for you whilst protecting the identity of some other man. You have the right to your co-abusers name.

Mr. Wondering

In certain countries (and I don't know if this person is residing in one of those countries), exposure can lead to jail or death. In some of these countries, if they mercifully get jail for adultery (let's use Saudi Arabia for example), it is the family's responsibility to feed you while in jail. If the decide to prosecute to the fullest extent, the children are left orphans. In some countries, email and such is monitored and discovery of such actions can be used against you. Even if you live on a western compound in that country. Just saying...

CV

BXH,

One thing you can do is keep a notebook on you. Write down what you suspect to be a lie. One thing liars are is inconsistent. As you keep a log to refer back to, you can point back to any conflicting stories and say "on such and such a date, you said this, which is not what you are saying now".

CV

Dear BXH and Hurting,

I'm so sorry to here that your wives are not being O@H with you. I have to agree with MRWondering here... Being a FWW myself, I'm wonder why you have chosen to call your spouses "FWW" when that would mean that they have demonstrated true repentance. Keeping secrets and lying actually shows a lack of sorrow over their actions.

Food for thought.

God bless,
Grace

Youre very close to the truth celtic.

I agree Grace, and that's what I've been asking for; not sorrow, just true repentance and a need to "move on" from fogginess/affairland. Dr Harley in his SAA book mentions that sorrow/being sorry is not critical for recovery to work, so I guess from my perspective, it'd be too much to ask for-after all, I was the monster who led her to this... (just saying).

I also think the FWW title is something I need for my own sanity to see me through this since I may actually give up all hope if the F is still provisional (and, anyway, the F is on probation).

From your own experience of being a FWW, could you tell me when was the aha moment for you to deliver the entire truth? I have noticed time and again on the forums and elsewhere that WW's have a much harder time admitting PA's-specially in the absence of conclusive evidence.

Yes, random internet guys were the primary excuse for not knowing identities, BUT, atleast on 1 (or more?) instances, it led to meeting(s?) in real life and on 2, to phone conversations (admitted to by FWW). Also, recent OM's were ex-bf and an ex-"friend" from the internet of many many years (pre-marriage), which opens up the possibility of other OM's from "the bad ol internet days" whom she definitely knew in real life. Problem is "it was so long ago" & "I really didnt care much about POSOM#1 afterwards and drove him out of my mind" (damn right you didn't, then why risk the marriage and the future of the children over him?).
No chance of any of her friends or family knowing, she'd be mortified if any of them knew the truth (specially if there was a PA which i believe in the distinct possibility of) primarily because of the "impossibility of exposure" reason (possible incarceration etc.. etc...)