Yes, this is art of war - 'The general who makes many calculations before the battle will have victory'
I have faith in Sun Tzu, if not in softlad!


Yes, it is surprising how quickly I have dusted myself off with this one. Because I am doing right and all I can, I suppose. Dragging him into non amicable divorce to protect myself should also shake out some fog.

I realise now that his distance and sleeplessness were down to the debt. Not being honest with me drove a huge wedge in the way of us. My very presence must have made him feel guilty. He had the gift of a loving wife in his home, who would have worked out anything with him, and he fogged himself into believing me an enemy. The silly sod now has replaced me with a snake. It is only a matter of time before she bites him.



I am actually working this weekend - without getting any overtime (part of plan me is getting a new job) so I want it to rain too. We can co-ordinate our rain dances. Not that the dance is usually required here in damp old Blighty.

I am still considering reconcilliation. I cant believe it. The bar has got a lot, lot higher with this latest discovery - but if he did everything necessary and was repentant enough - maybe.

This is a question I keep asking myself over and over. So I will put it to you wise MBers....

Am I completely crazy??!!

Well you two can have the rain that they are calling for here, cuz I wanna take the boys to the drive in, and it would be easier to see the screen without having to use the windshield wipers.

You can let your solicitor know that your GOAL is to NOT see Softlad. Maybe you can just sit in a different room, and your solicitor can go into the room with Softlad. Let him/her know that this is a plan that you are doing that was recommended by a Doctor who specializes in helping people recover from affairs.

Hopefully, you could manage it without any actual contact with Softlad.

I wouldn't consider myself wise just yet, but here is a novice's answer until the vets comment.

Crazy... well, if honouring and respecting the vows you made to each other is crazy maybe so. I would call it having integrity, self-respect and commitment. Crazy is what is going on in planet of the waywards, where all of these values are missing.

But neither would you be "crazy" to decide reconciliation is no longer possible, that the bar has not only been raised to impossibly high standards due to SL's betrayal, but that you no longer care about where the bar is because of his continued lack of remorse or commitment. Softlad has made choices that got him where he is today, not you, he had the affair and he chose not to be honest or remorseful. Only you can really answer whether you would want reconciliation.

But Indie, I see that you asking the question shows part of you still wants reconciliation. And fair enough... I wish I was at the stage of asking the question, because everything in my being still screams for reconciliation rather then questioning if it is worth it. I would imagine when you stop asking yourself the question, or feel total indifference about the thought of reconciliation, that is when you are "done".


To me, a "maybe" shows you are not yet "done". Providing he meets your terms of course

Here goes!

I dont know why this money thing is stil bothering me. I cant pinpoint what it is.

Uncertainty about what I will get

uncertaintly about who he is.

I just keep telling myself his dishonesty and financial stupidity are HIS problem.

I have high boundaries and legal advice

He has no plan.

So why am I feeling tortured?

Because it really hurts us when our spouses act so independently and thoughtlessly. You married him and united yourself to him, thinking that he would have the same thoughtfulness toward you as you did to him.

His poor choices both in finances and in his morals affect you very much. Hopefully, you will get good legal counsel and can avoid having to take on his debts. But you know you are living your life with integrity. In all the grief, you are living well.

I admire your strength and fortitude very much.

I think he was a freeloader/renter but had himself/me convinced he was a buyer...


Do freeloaders ever change?

Good question, but we have to let them earn there way someday.

I have sorta kicked my two boys out, after the two year anii of my wives death, and when I knew they were able to act like young men. One had a great job but no money discipline, and kept pushing all his anx on me. The other was just plain stuck in limbo.

Its not how I dreamed my boys would leave home, but we still are close, but not as familiar. When you are faced with providing for yourself, and the crappiness of people out there sometimes, you grow up pretty quick. The sorrow of the families loss was deafening, and they had to let me go too, because I was/am a basket case in comparison to who I used to be.

But freeloading, a lack of personal accountability, blaming others for your problems, has a shelf life. Part of plan B is to see if they will come around to the planet earth, and dig in with the rest of us, and take care of it and the ones who inhabit it.

Being alone, has a very good effect on accountability, and all WH can do now is either demonize you for everything,(and get petty too BTW which OW will see), or whine about how it was "OK", to stab you in the back, because after all, the world is full of sleazy people.(Which he is now the King of that realm now).

Either argument is full of holes, and either she sees it already, because she is just playing with him anyways,(she wants what you have), or she will recognize what a weak wimp,(softLad), he is that he dropped you for some desparate scared messed up grieving women who needed some attention, and he took atvantage of her.

My bet is that he will run out of credibility with her, and she will see that he did not wish to give her strength, but rob it from her, all to feed his ego as a KISA.

When that happens, he will be alone, and no excuses anymore. Then he will come crawling back.

At the end of our lives, when we stand before our maker, there will be no blaming others for why we didn't listen to Him first while we were here. In our conscience we know this, and when he ends up alone, maybe he will man up.

Then I hope he will become a buyer, and realize he allready lives here, and do his part.

I realised last night that I am far from being done.

i kept trying to figure out what 'we' would do about the debt if we reconciled!

The bar is sky high now, but anyone with an ounce of sense would jump it to be with ME

And I am fine with being with someone who has made mistakes but is able to look them in the eye and fix them.

It is still something of a mystery to me though HOW i can still feel invested.


He had a crazy level of independent behaviour, was financially thoughtless, selfish with his time and money - and was unfaithful to me both physically and emotionally

Dont even get me started on the dishonesty.

He did provide a high level of affection, admiration and interesting conversation for many years. He was 'there for me'. I suppose this is all it takes to make a solid love bank. i just hope I dont still feel like this, and stuck in limbo in two years' time. I cant move on and be with someone else if so. I want to have a family etc.

Indiegirl, you've been through alot with this man, your husband. People can and do change. My husband is living proof of that. You are very wise to recognize that things can never go back to the way they were and to insist that the bar remains high.

Praying.

P.s. And no. You are not crazy!

That means a lot P.meg!

My sis said to me the other day that hope can be damaging.

I respectfully disagree. Knowing that it is possible for him to change wont hurt me.

If he does - I say great
If he doesnt - I say your choice

Plus if he doesnt that will make me more sure than ever. If he can help himself and our marriage but just chooses not to, I am SOOOO much better off.

Thats right Indie, your not crazy, your in that place of change and growth.

You are here with some awesome people to keep you grounded, and in a place you can be sure, you will be supported in reality also.

Your allready a sharp young lady,but in matters like this, where your ship gets really beat up, its good to have a solid place to take harbor for awhile.

This time is an important time for growth and change, we change in the valleys.

That rejection you feel, and the smallness that comes with it, bonds to us also, and becomes part of our life. You can probably remember times when you and SoftLad went through things terrible together, sadness, loss, or even times of bitter conflict right?

We know that SoftLad quit and ran, was tempted by his softhead and ego, and missed out on this test, and traded it for some fantasy high.

But he doesn't see he is going backward, while you are going forward, in maturity and life.

Theres a line from Billy Joels song, "Scenes from an Italian restaurant" That I think of when I think of couples who get together and don't "plan on", the tough times. I will give you a couple stanzas.. Its a ballad and pretty sad song but the point can be made in this part.

_______________________
They got an apartment with deep
Pile carpet
And a couple of paintings from Sears
A big waterbed that they bought
With the bread
They had saved for a couple
Of years
They started to fight when the
Money got tight
And they just didn't count on
The tears.

____________________

Tears and sadness will come in this life. Those that run away screaming in denial can find all kinds of safe havens they think for awhile,(Such as Softboy did when he felt his KISA instints kick in when he started hanging around with Black Widow, and instead of coming to his senses and restraining himself...).

But those who stay and feel the pain, refuse to buckle to there fight or flight, get the richness of life, with all of its suffering also.

When I decided to return to my WW in 1989, a statement struck me from "The road less traveled", a book by Scott Peck,(If youve never read it I suggest it). He said that when children know that you will stick by them through any pain, they are secure that they were loved and in themselves. I thought at that time, even though I was gone for two years allready, and knew my messed up wife caused me so much pain, that she might drag me down again, of my children.

What would they go through? Who would be there for them? Even though she didn't have control of her faculities, and walked on the edge of disaster with her Alcoholism, she did live in fear that they would suffer. I created 2 lives with her, and i was responsible for her and those two lives, whatever it took. That thought was the only sure reason I went back, the rest was only hope for a good recovery. It took a little more than that to get me back, and a little more time. If we only had a plan like MB and the support from people like we have here.

Why do you still feel connected? Because you are and allways will be in some way. A Pastor freind of mine, when he was talking about his lost daughter to a car accident, still looking like he was in shock said, "You never completly stop missing them, you learn how to deal with it and keep going". He said that to me at my late wives funeral.

Those of us who accept the pain and loss, and realize its gravity, are the ones that experience life to its fullest. You will make it through this, and come out stronger on the other side. More complete, more mature, and a deeper person for it. You will still feel some pity on him, but what a man needs is respect, and that he is losing. The loss shall not bite so deeply, and the connection will not be as strong to him in time.

Keep that bar high, he needs it also, even if he doesn't jump up to it, it is his only hope. If there is going to be any recovery, you will both have to go through this, not around it, and if there is none than he will remember that beautiful wife that he blew it with, or he will spin down into a pit.

Loving people who don't love you back sucks, but you can do it from plan B, and it gets clearer all the time. Remember you are the strong one in this and keep taking good care of yourself, we are all pulling for you.

Bingo. I'm not interested in being anyone's mummy. I need a strong man who can look others in the eye and say: 'I was selfish. It was really wrong'

And I have had numerous renter moments in the past myself. The pain has seared all my weak points up in that respect. So I have changed. I will never sacrifice myself and do something I am not enthusiastic about ever again. I will never expect someone to sacrifice for me.

I am actually glad about the debt today! I am glad because it caused the bar to be raised up where it needed to be. I am glad because I have found the ROOT of the problem.

If he came back it would be under strict conditions of transparency and he would need to take responsibility for the debt. My sis suggeted that as well as a post-nup that I insist on taking control of paying all bills.

I am actually thanking my stars now that he got hostile with me on D-day and left so I could go into Plan B. I have really needed this space to figure out whats necessary for this marriage to work, and on whats necessary for me to bail.

Well details about who pays the bills, etc would be something that would be POJA'd, if you got to recovery.

INDIE

I only can offer to you that to feel better, you need to stick to it. I still have moments where I really wish that my WH was home, 20 months later. They aren't often, and I feel much better. There is still a lot of work to do when you are recovering personally.

Have you read Mimi's thread? Queenie's?

Your sister just wants you to be happy, and she sees "moving on" as the best way, believe me, I KNOW because of what people say to ME(about me, of course). People not on MB don't understand what we are doing, and think we should do it the way others have. They don't know that that method doesn't help you recover as well as MB.

You allowed yourself 6 months to evaluate your progress and decide where you want to go from there. That time is not today. Work on healing yourself, and evaluate your feelings at the time.

I feel a lot of pressure of time being placed on yourself. I KNOW that you want children, and that is the main driving force of this pressure, but lay off yourself for a while.

I believe that my WH is my BEST option, but I know that he isn't my only option, for life. That is part of my personal recovery.

You have done so well. You really "get" MB. You're doing great so don't put so much pressure on yourself. You're AWESOME.

Indie - I feel the same pain as you. I would like my WH to return.

Plan B helps me to really look at the marriage Pre-A, and become authentic with me again.

There are so many out there who believe sacrifice is the way to be in a marriage. I was a complete supporter until I read about marriage builders.

I can appreciate Plan B for the growth is allows me inside. It doesn't take away the pain of my four children. I believe I am only holding on for them today.

I had my doctor appointment yesterday. My blood pressure is high. I told her about my life and she clearly understood. I have a lot to think about because my health is number one for my children.

Today I am realizing letting him go and not stressing has to be my focus. I feel I am on a path, yet the path is still dark.

I am following the path without any light. I am not fearful of the dark path, but I do wish to soon see some light.

All I can do today is walk my path in the dark and hopefully soon I will see the light that I know will shine on me. I just need patience, time, and consistency.

God Bless Tough~

"I realize I am far from being done" same feelings exactly....you are a great person who is thinking clearly!
Praying also

I did wonder about that actually



I can only have faith that Plan B will give me the strength to move on if that is what is needed. Right now I am not ready, just how it is. So there's no point pressurising myself over something that is not under my control. Some things take time.

This is so appreciated. In some ways my prayers have been answered. For many years I fervently asked to have things made clear to me - to understand what was wrong. Well I know now! Be careful what you wish for...!

My I.c. once said be carefull how hard u fight for her if it takes a great fight to win her, you may find out when you win, you get something you don't want.

That is what I like about mb principles they concentrate on me making me the best I can be!! It is a tough rollercoaster to ride though

Just read Love bank deposits in Plan B - I am so glad for you people!!!!

I really want my love bank to keep pace with the timeline I have imposed - I want to feel 'done' come January, if he has not woken up by then.

Unfortunately, that may not happen. I am taking some tips from the thread though, focusing on myself, being aware that I am love with who I 'thought' he was etc.....

I am hoping that since 'most' affairs end within six months of exposure, this fact will help to freeze the love bank at that deadline.

If softlad is slow on the uptake, do I want him? I hope not.

One thing I will NOT do, is get involved with someone else while it is possible I would accept softlad's repentance,

Letting yourself love two people at one - is just STOOOOPID.