One thing to remember, this list? Make sure whatever you put on there, you WILL STICK BY. ANY failure on his side, means a trip to the divorce attorney. These have to be things YOU NEED and WANT deep in your heart, for him to prove he wants to make this marriage work, and they can't be open to being blown off for him. If you give a quarter of an inch, it will all go up in smoke then.

I made that mistake back in 2002 when I first found the site and we tried working thru that first cyber affair my stbxh had, and I jumped the gun without really understanding what I was doing.

Can't write too much as the power is out And this is via cell phone.

All of the below have me very concerned:
Not exposing to your kids and his family
Not sending nc letter
Breaking Plan B without a recovery plan
WH doesn't have hat in hand and is trying to negotiate things thAt are non-negotiable

I strongly recommend that you call the radio show so that Dr Harley can tell you your next step because you are not on the right path right now.

Here

SMB and her FWH (HerPapaBear) are recovered today. The only thing I think they did differently than the list above is they did coaching with the Harley kids instead of the MC.

Sorry, it was a busy day yesterday and I didn't get a chance to let you know that I read all of the suggestions from North, SusieQ, Chick, and NoStressZone. I have incorporated the suggestions into my document and I have added to it. Included is that WH will sign a letter that I will write to his former boss/owner of the company requesting his time card (daily in and out time) for all of his working days of 2010 up to his last day on 2/18/11. I figured that since we need to be transparent, I want to know how much time he actually took off (unpaid)of which I was unaware in order to hook up with OW. I have wanted that for months, but the owner and his wife (good friends of ours) wouldn't give it to me but WH would have to make that request. I think it is hypocritical of WH to be upset about my not working full time because we need more $$, and he is taking off every chance he gets to go and meet OW, when he was paid by the hour.

We have arranged quiet time tomorrow (Sun) early evening to talk and go over what I present in writing. I will post later on Sunday or Mon morning to let you know how our time together went.

I wanted to answer about some of the areas that you all have expressed concern. Yes, I did not expose to my kids. That may be the only huge area that went against what the MB SAA program mandates that I did not at least attempt. I did expose to all of his family and mine. I should have exposed earlier. August 18, 2010 is when I confronted WH after finding the text messages on the prepaid cell. At that time he told me that he wanted to stay and work on our M. (Remember, Pre-MB) He seemed to be doing the right things for a while. Then the time between Labor Day and Thanksgiving we would have "bumpy spots" in what I now know was our FR. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas was pretty darn rocky. I believed that we were in R and that things would get better. There were a few LBs of WH's IB that I now know was WH taking off to meet OW. The week before Christmas I found a txt msg in his legit cell's "draft" box referencing his other phone would be working tomorrow. I was then convinced at that time it was only a FR.

I continued Plan A and he kept saying "Let me end it my own way." Still in Plan A from Christmas and on MLK Day, I called OWH and (unknowingly)exposed to him (WH told me that OWH knew.) My WH walked out that night, angry that I called OWH. He (officially) came home about 10 days later when I worked overnight about 2 hours away and he came home to stay with DS. When I arrived home he asked and I agreed that he could stay on the couch that night. Then he didn't leave. We never successfully finished our talk about officially going into R. But, he kept mentioning that he was going to leave again. On Fri. 1/28 I was on the MB Radio show and Dr. Harley told me to go into Plan B ASAP. I prepared, but kinda stalled with hope that something would change before that drastic step. We had really horrible winter weather that entire next week (DS was out of school for 4 straight days) so I put things on hold a few days. The following Monday late morning (2/7), I took 2 packed bags to his office and officially went into Plan B. I emailed him the Plan B letter the next morning and stayed in Plan B until he left for PR. No, I did not have a recovery plan when he got on that plane (on 2/22), but through our talks, (not face to face) I thought that we went into a "modified" R because he committed to return to work on our marriage and he told me that he had ended contact with OW(on Sun 2/20.) I had no reason to not believe him and couldn't prove otherwise.

On 3/25, I happened to find out that WH did had the prepaid phone and had been in constant contact with OW until 3/30 when payment wasn't made to continue the prepaid for the next month. I was so mad. ( and I thought he would have been through withdrawal with his mother but that was not going to be the case.)

After being away for 11 weeks, it was difficult trying to work the details out. We arrived at a "skeletal understanding" and agreed to work out the particulars when he got back in town. And i guess with the stuff that have kept us busy, things have gotten away from us (me).

We had a good talk yesterday (Fri) morning. I think that he is sincere. I think that this "attitude" I have seen may be his being pissed off with himself b/c we now have to resort to these measures.) And the issue about the bracelet, I believe, he does not want to hurt me because of the nature of the gift. By now, I would have picked up on any "shifty" behavior. WH is not looking for excuses to be alone. He has spent a lot of time with me and with the kids. WH leaves his phone available for me to check whenever I want. In prep for his Family Reunion that was held Memorial Day Sat. he mentioned wanting to go the day before to help set up. I told him that it would not be possible b/c the reunion was at the home of the uncle that lives in the area where WH has (2x) hooked up with OW, and that our family would go together (but we could arrange to arrive early for him to help if he wanted). There was no issue whatsoever about my vetoing his plan.

I am committed to be firm on my points, especially those that are non-negotiable. I will fill you in as soon as I can. Thanks again for your words of true wisdom.

This should go into the FALSE RECOVERY text book to illustrate "What not to do".

What a colossal error.

Specifics will save your marriage.
ie: "This (behavior) is OK. This (other behavior) is not Ok."


LINK to FR thread in RECOVERY forum !!!

I can see why now and fully agree about it being a huge error on my part. Pepper, you have my express permission to add this one to the FR list.

No, I prefer people share their own FR stories.
I never experienced a FR myself.
I rely on the hard earned wisdom of those who have.

Click on the link and answer the 3 questions.
Pay it forward to others.

Thanks.

I certainly will. Thanks

DontLie, he needs to be 100% O&H and answer all of your questions truthfully about the affair. If he is still lying, he is going to remain foggy regardless of whatever you think he is trying to protect you or not. That is the reason that we suggest such radical things like the poly ~ it will help bring your WH out of the fog.

DontLie, your kids KNOW that there is a serious issue if your WH left the home for such a long period of time. Haven't they asked what happened? What did you tell them?

You know that one of the reasons Dr Harley advocates exposing to the kids is because if you don't, they may blame themselves for the marital problems, right?

Again, this will HELP your H. Exposure is win-win. It will help your children to understand what is going on, it will teach them to trust you with telling them the truth and the more people that your H is accountable to, the better ~ it will help defog him and increase your chances of a successful R.

I really hope that you will reconsider this.

One more...

I listened to your radio show and I'm very sorry to hear about your autoimmune disease and all that you have been through. {{{DontLie}}}

Have you listened to the show again recently? If not, please consider doing so because Dr Harley and Joyce's advice still holds value for what you are going through today.

For example, Dr Harley expressed that you were not really following his plans but were rather in a Plan C, which is the most likely to lead to divorce and Joyce was concerned that you had been floundering around too long and weren't seeing the situation clearly, since you were sympathetic towards your H despite everything he had been doing to you.

To me, it sounds like your H is a master gaslighter and you have become accustomed to this. This is why you need to ignore what he says and look at what he is willing to do.

If your H is not willing to do what he needs to to help you heal and to protect you, DontLie, you are going to have to be strong and let him go so that you can focus on your health. OK? I will be thinking about you tonight as you have your talk and lay out your REQUIREMENTS (not suggestions)

Some time has passed since I posted because I wanted to make sure that we were truly progressing, so forgive me. I will bring my saga up to date, but first I had something happen that I am not sure if I handled it in the best way possible.

Night before last I was awakened by my WH who was in need of SF. While in the middle of things, he commented on my arousal level, saying something like "Wow, your p***y is.... I was very stunned by his statement, because I (we) never have used language like this. I (we) have always used proper names for things and parts of body etc. I stopped a second, gave him a strange (unapproving) look, then quickly allowed things to continue. It was so offensive to me that under any other circumstances (pre A) I would have immediately stopped and the fun would have been over.

Before dinner last night, we were out grilling and I brought up the comment and my feelings. I chose to address it because I fear that if I didn't, it would only be the start of the use of similar language. How I addressed it was in no way close to a LB (I was actually proud of myself). He defended by saying that he's sure that he has used "that word" with me before. (That is untrue.) Then he stated, "Let's say, within the last 5-6 years, I guess I've probably used the word no more than 5 times. Well, his A falls within that time frame.

This really got me thinking about him and the OW, and that he probably talked to her like that. I later asked if it was possible that he could have used the word to her. He said no, that he didn't use that word with her, or referring to her. So, immediately thought that while he wouldn't use that word with the OW, but he will with his W of now 23 years, like I'm the Ho, not her.

I don't think he will use the word around me intentionally. But, is there anything that I should have done or done differently regarding this issue?

I split my mobile phone account which then changed the number today and the request to get my old number back should be completed within about 48 hours. My WH says that NC with OW started on March 30. OW has made several attempts to contact him. There is question as to whether OW was successful the week after Father's Day. He then finally changed his mobile number in Early July. (No problems since the change.) I don't think I am getting the truth and he insists NC w/ her. There are several facts that he is still not coming clean on. I don't feel that we can't go too much further toward true Recovery until he corrects all of the un- and half-truths he has led me believe. I know the truth because I have found solid proof.

With a new unrecognized number, and it only working for a short period of time, I want to text OW as WH, to see how she responds. I did this about about 3 weeks after the PA D-Day with the A phone I found and took from him and it was about 3 hours of back and forth texts before I said something that tipped her that I was not WH. I need some clue whether there has really been NC. And with WH's number changed, she will not be able to contact him. If I send a text, it would be something short like "R U OK?" Then I'd wait. I sent a text to WH's phone and only the number came up (without my name) I know that she would see the area code and OW would jump at it. I know that she has probably attempted contact since his number changed.

Should I do it? What do you experts think?

Arrange a polygraph. That might help--and the closer you get to the appointment the more likely he is to spill.

My WH and I have been working toward Recovery since his return (5/2011). I wrote a clear 5 page Recovery Agreement which he signed. The 5 pages covered everything I could think of, leaving no room for any possible deviation from the spirit of what needs to happen in our marriage.

One of the items in the agreement is for us to (together) go over the different concepts or subjects and discuss how that it impairs or would enhance our relationship. The issue we read about and discuss may be the MB concept or anything else (like my ADHD) that negatively impacts our relationship and home life. We were doing this last night (after a long hiatus b/c of vacation, traveling, and getting both kids ready to return to school) and he began to share his thoughts with me. WH starts talking about how he has to live with the fact that he had the A, and messed up his and our life. (He is now job hunting b/c his employer could not keep his job waiting for him when he decided to board a plane to P.R. and was there for exactly 11 weeks.) When discussing his infidelity WH tends to focus on his pain. I have noticed for a while and I am starting to wonder if this means anything or not. He was very involved in our faith and before the A was having a crisis of faith. He would talk about it periodically when we would meet with our small prayer group. I started to think that it was too painful for him to address my feelings, etc. Or maybe he just hasn't gotten it yet. When he returned he said and did all of the "right" things in order to return home. I know that I didn't have the typical Plan B, but I believe his sincerity when we talked upon his return. One of the issues that seems to be a struggle is his (not) wanting to fulfill my EN. He has always had difficulty doing unpleasant things and has always found a way to do the "reward" first instead. I've pointed out to him a few times where Dr. Harley says that to begin fulfilling EN at first does not feel comfortable b/c we would naturally want to avoid anyone who does not have a sufficient Love Bank balance. I don't know if it's because he does not want to believe it or not. I have been fulfilling his EN without question.

A few days ago he told me that he spoke to a few friends and told them about the agreement and they thought it was a waste of paper. Even though he does not think much of the agreement he signed, it seems that he is abiding by it. He said that the agreement would not keep him from doing something if he wanted to do it. There have been no new problems or issues, andthere has been NC. WH changed his mobile phone number on his own.

Sometimes he says things and I question whether he "gets it" or not. Its not so blatent that would signal me to ask him to leave and go into a dark Plan B, but it is does alarm me enough to wonder what or how he is thinking.

Any suggestions?

I want to comment on the post before this one that you made. You said you weren't sure that there had been NC with OW and you wanted to pretend to be your WH and text OW to find out for sure. There needs to be other things you do to find out. You also can't take your WH's word for it.

Hop on over to The investigation forum to find out all of the tools you can use to make sure that your WH is in NC with OW.

Sorry, but I don't know all of your story. Was there a NC letter sent out?

As far as what you could be and should be doing in regards to recovery, I don't know much about it, but what I do know is that your WH should be remorseful and falling over himself trying to do whatever he can to help you recover.

Dontlietome,

I read your entire thread and listened to your radio show and posted to you and I don't believe you really responded directly to my concerns.

Could you do so now? Namely:

If you can answer our questions, we can quickly help you ascertain whether your WH is serious about recovery and help you get your recovery plan together.

Thanks!

He seems to be pretty self-centered. Does he act as though he did you a favor by returning?


The self-centered, almost arrogant attitude is going to have to stop on his end or you'll burn out fast. And then you'll be back where you started before all this hit the fan.


Why would they say that if he hadn't presented it in a mocking manner? I can picture that conversation now, and I would almost bet on how it was presented to them. Too, why would he tell you that except to invalidate it..."See, others think it's nuts, too!"


What is that supposed to be, a threat? I'd have called him out on that immediately and told him he'd better think twice before EVER saying that again!

My wife said the exact same thing when she was "working" on the marriage.

You'll notice the difference between "working" and "working" on a marriage. Unless you meant otherwise, just reading your last post reeks of a self-centered, self-righteous quasi-foggy wayward who's just doing enough to get by and stay out of trouble.

I wouldn't trust him at all, put a keylogger on his computer and spyware on his cell if you haven't already done so.


My suggestion? Tell him to cut the crap, grow the eff up, be a man, put on his big-boy pants and either get serious or get the hell out.

I'm serious, I'd tell him to decide today, tonight, this instant, what it's going to be because you're not going to live with any indecision on what should be an easy question to answer.

Otherwise, I fear you guys will settle into some ho-hum routine and be back where you were earlier. There are no halfways any longer, he's either in all the way or out.

Oh, and his "buddies" that he's laughing about your letter with need to make a quick exit, in my opinion. If they're not for you (plural) then they're not friends of your marriage.

Everything has to change, it has to be different from here on out.

Good luck, I think you've got a shot if you can get him to cut the crap.

Thanks for answering my post, Scotland. I forgot to mention that part of the story. A NC letter was mailed on the Thursday before Father's Day. I mailed it myself at our local P.O. The letter was addressed to her where she works. He did a little balking about doing the letter at first, stating that he has had NC since March 30, so he did not see the reason why to send one. But when it became apparent to us that it was OW trying to contact him (from her work phone,) he then saw why it really was a good idea. She sent him a text on Father's Day wishing him a Happy Father's Day but didn't answer it. OW must have gotten the letter The day after on Monday because she texted him about 5 times within about 3 hours. He did not answer them from examination of the phone records. All that tells me is that WH may have contacted her back, but it was not on his own phone. He forgot to bring his cell phone charger and his phone went dead. WH called me using his sister's phone. I don't really believe that I was the only one he called with her cell phone. But of course, he denies calling any one else and his sister is backing him on this one.

About the post I made regarding me sending a text to OW, I decided not to send it.

Thanks, SusieQ. I will go down your list and address them.

Yes, I mentioned several months ago that I have not exposed to the kids. But I did expose to his family, and my family as well.

No, NC Letter was mailed the Thursday before Father's Day.

No, we did not have the recovery plan written exactly at that time, but there is one in place now. I presented it to him and he promptly signed it. I answered Scotland in an earlier post regarding recent comments about the Recovery agreement.

Yes, it doesn't seem that he has his hat in his hand. I don't know what non-negotiable he is trying to negotiate.

It is still apparent that WH "blames" me for everything. You can hear it in the way he talks. But then he acknowledges that he is responsible for our situation and everything that has happened because of his A. I started to question him about why he seems to blame me for putting us in a position for him to be so frustrated to the point to succumb to what he did. But he then says that he alone is responsible for his actions of participating in the A. I am not sure what to make of his statements. I don't know how to challenge WH's reasoning and (hopefully) help change his perspective.