Great.

Just remember the good doctor's words:

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Scotty,

I most certainly appreciate the advice given here. I did not say that I did not agree with it nor did I say I would not follow it. I understand what you guys are saying, I do. But I also know that there are two sides to every story, his, hers and the truth which lies somewhere in the middle.

Have I been gas lighted in the past ? Yes. Am I still being gaslighted to an extent? possibly. I am following a plan , that while maybe it does not 100% go with what you guys are recommending, still falls within the MB guidelines.

**I do not feel I have effectively planned a without delivering major LB's to this point - so I am going to focus on a true Plan A **

I am going to Plan A hard for the next couple weeks- at that point if I do not see significant change then yes I will Plan B.

Do I have any intentions of dating him after the divorce? No. And I have made myself clear to him in that fact. Will I have the ability to Plan B and to cut myself off from him if the D is finalized ? Yes. And he does know that. He knows that once I cut someone off , I am done, he has seen me do it before. And maybe that is why I am hesitant to go into Plan B quite so soon, because I know that I have the ability to put up huge impenetrable walls - and once I do that- once I shut myself off from him - there will be very little chance of reconciliation no matter how much he begs or pleads.

I am sorry you feel sorry for my DD's. Despite what you may think they are actually quite happy, balanced and have two parents that love them very much and that despite our issues have done our best to keep them out of this.

The one who is controlling is your husband.

Time to set a boundary.

He says that he is doing the best he can. So what? If his best is not good enough, then are you going to settle for second best? Of course not.

The boundary, if he's not willing to get on board with the best marriage building plan there is, then he's not worthy to be your husband.

If he really wants to work on the marriage, he needs to call and arrange Marriage Building coaching today, and when THEY think he's good enough husband matierial, they can bring you on-board.

Because his plan is not good enough for you. You deserve better. If he's not willing to be the best, then he's not for you.

Say that to him, and have no further contact until someone from MB contacts you, reports that he's had good progress and is really ready to implement what he's learned in his relationship with you, under the coaching of a Marriage Builder professional.

If he's not willing to do that, then you have your answer about how hard he's willing to try or what he's willing to do to be a great husband. In other words, if's not willing, he's not worthy.

That's not control, that's having high standards, setting and enforcing a boundary. He can choose to meet the standard or not. It's 100% his choice.

Have your DDs been told about your WH's affairs?

Do they realize that their family is about to be torn apart and their parents are doing NOTHING to stop it?

I am sorry too. I am sorry that you have decided to put faith in your WH when he is NOT deserving of that faith, at all.

You would be entering Plan B not as an end, believe me I KNOW. I have been in Plan B for 20+months and if my WH came home now, with hat in hands and willing to abide by ALL of my conditions for reconciliation, I would consider attempting recovery.

Plan B has been AMAZING for me. It has helped me in my personal recovery and with the ability to become the strong person I once was.

I don't understand your relaxed attitude towards this. You do realize that your DIVORCE is almost FINAL, right?

Hey. I see you have a plan within the MB guidelines but it does seem that you are only plan Aing til the divorce in which you will plan B and be done.
That leaves more of a plan D (as in done)?

Is this the plan? Do I have it clear?

That is fine but it sucks that the divorce is on you like this and the door is nailed shut without any time to do plan B with hope for reconsiliation.

So here is the update for tonight.

He mentioned during our blow out over my MB posting last night that he didn't trust me. I asked him tonight while he was here if he could explain what it was he didn't trust and what I can do to change that.

He said that he doesn't trust that I can change. That he still sees me exhibiting controlling behavior. That he is trying to go thru the process of falling in love with me again but that when he starts getting close I sabotage things. And that is why me talking about recovery upsets him bc he is just not there yet. That if I will just quit pushing recovery and let him see that I am worth the risk and that he can feel good with me / be in love with me that then and only then will he be willing to commit 100% to recovery. Said that he understands if that is not good enough for me and that only I can determine whether or not I am willing to see where things will go.

As part of his trust issue with me - he came back to the exposure that I did on him. How much that hurt him, how it upsets him bc he sees that I feel justified in what I did etc.

I did a very limited exposure back in May - prior to really knowing what exposure was really about. While I told friends and family that we were separating due to issues on my part as well as him engaging in a lifestyle I didn't agree with, I only exposed his actual infidelity to one person - his mom.

My H & his mom have always been close. After he left I found out from her that he had been telling her for years that he wasn't happy (while never telling me). His mom has also had 3 failed marriages - 2 of which involved cheating on her husbands behalf. My H always said he would never put me thru what his dad & stepdad did to his mom. When he left in May he was staying at her place some, she was getting the whole song & dance about him not being happy. After listening to her one night go on about how he wasn't happy and I was too controlling etc I decided to tell her exactly what he had been up to- she asked me if I knew for sure or if it was just based on what I "felt", I confirmed to her that I knew 100% for sure.

She basically begged me not to let his other family members know. That everyone would judge him, that it would cause family issues etc. So I did not tell anyone else the full extent.

I thought bc of what had happened in her marriages she would be an ally and try to talk to my H about what he was doing. Instead she decided not to let him know that she knew. In July my husband moved back home for a week (at his request)- after 2 months of my exposure to her my MIL decided that was the time to let H know what she knew. But she didn't even do it in a direct way - it was handled like "Your W has expressed to me that she has concerns over some girls you may be talking to". Needless to say it caused an argument with me & H, he felt like he was ready to come home and then got hit with knowledge of my exposure- I had to explain to him that the exp had happened back in May and that I was not set out to hurt him. A few days later he left home and went to stay with his mom.

So anytime trust issues with me or the fact that I have hurt him comes up that is what it comes down to. The exposure I did to his mother. He says I caused him great grief/shame. He says that I did it at a time when he was showing me change and had quit the activities (even though I exposed 2 months prior when everything was happening). Says that he finally had the courage to tell me the truth and I used it against him.

After our discussion about his trust in me and the exposure he left in an enraged storm. Said that my MB plan hurt him and he would never be willing to participate in it. However he called me an hour later to apologize for blowing up - explained again how he wants to fall back in love/ rekindle with me and if I can just show him that is possible then he would be willing to look at the program. But that he has to see I am worth the risk of putting himself thru a program that caused him great pain.

I guess as of now it is not about pushing recovery with him as he is unsure that is what he wants, it is me deciding whether or not I can plan A long enough for him to feel like he can fall back in love with me. As I have said before I have felt him get close and then yes I start getting demanding and push him away.

And for those that have asked, yes our DD's know we are getting divorced- they do not know all the dirty details. Unfortunately divorce seems so rampant these days that while my kids have moments of being upset (and I know the effects of divorce will stay with them thru life) - they also go on to say how every friend they know has divorced parents. I don't think it will truly hit them until the shared custody arrangement starts taking place.

Sorry you are here hun,

Is it just me or is your WH putting all the responsibility on you? He was the one went playing away and now it's all your fault?

How does that work?

Seems he's the one who broke this and now he wants you to fix it, but his way?

Is that kinda what he is saying?

Bonkers.

I can see partly what he wants, mainly to have to take no responsibility for his actions or his part in the collapse in the marriage, so he thinks a D will give him a line drawn under his past behaviour and if you are a good little wifey, he might just come home and be nice......date you and make you fully responsible for everything.

If thats what you want......wouldn't do for me.

Follow what the vets say hun, they do know what they are talking about. Go see a lawyer......today or you will be back here in 3 months on the Divorced forum. and I get the feeling it's not really what you want.

Time to pull on the big girl pants

Hi Tanam,

Yeah, it's confusing lol. Basically he admits the affairs were wrong - but he also states that it was because he was unhappy and had disconnected from me years ago. He says that he knows that if he were happy the cheating wouldn't have taken place (points out that he did not cheat during the happy times of our marriage).

Says he was never able to put into words why he was unhappy - therefore could not tell me. At some point he felt like the marriage turned into all about me and what I wanted, and that I never let him have a voice. I know we don't like to get into childhood pasts here but essentially he was very emotionally abused by his stepfather as a child - he learned to say what he thought his SD wanted to hear as to avoid conflict. He also learned to be a protective liar in order to avoid punishment by his SD. Unfortunately in the failed MC we did in April it came out that I started feeling like his SD to him in the way that I treated him. In order to avoid conflict with me he avoided speaking his mind or sharing his true feelings ***I did not know this at the time*** I've never had a problem expressing my feelings so it never dawned on me that what he was telling me or him agreeing with me wasn't how he really felt.

He finds me argumentative and always needing to prove I'm right. He feels that I think my way is the only way and that I have always gone to great lengths to insure that I get my way.

That is why he freaks when I start pushing for recovery bc he feels that I am not changing and continuing to try and force my way on my schedule (and maybe I am ?).

He has stated that when/if he has had enough of the good feelings to make him feel comfortable with me again then yes he would devote himself 100% to recovery and a plan - but that I need to allow him to get to that point. As it stands we go for a week or so flying high , spending time together , feeling good and then I break down start talking recovery, he pulls into his shell and we start all over again. What is wrong with me? Why can I not just let us go for a few weeks without talking recovery? I know this is what it will take - I'm fine most days and then something in me just snaps.

He has stated he does not want to return to the marriage we had anymore than I do (the lying, cheating, control etc).

If we can create enough of those feel good feelings to make him feel comfortable with me then he will stop or at the very least postpone the divorce and we would enter a plan/program.

If we can't then the D will continue and as he said it would be up to me at that point whether or not I would agree to date him.

I want to be able to give us the next few weeks of feel good moments , without any freak outs or selfish demands on my part. Isn't that part of Plan A , for me to stop my LB's?

So I know what needs to happen on my part - why is it that even though he is telling me this is the path to get him on board for recovery that I keep bucking the system?

All waywards say this to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.



Again, his responsibility to speak up. Blaming a poor childhood helps him avoid responsibility AGAIN.



He freaks at the thought of having to say 'I take responsibility' and giving up HIS control of you.



Translation - stop asking for what you want and I will tell you what you can get. Does that sound like POJA to you?



Because your gut is telling you there is something very wrong with his attitude!



Tanam isnt confused she's totally right. The divorce isnt a way to get away from your 'control' but to dodge having to do anything to repair his marriage.

If he dates you he thinks he can have the fun of the relationship without having to do any work.

Ask yourself this - if you are as controlling and awful as he says - why does he want to date you? Especially without a recovery plan to resolve any issues.

He doesnt want the recovery plan because the issues are HIS. And he doesnt want the work - just the dating fun.

Plan A him and B him - but you must be tough to do it successfully.

If you make it ok for him to blame childhood/you/the weather/the stars, he will never take responsibility for what he has done.

He will never accept EPS from you or do any proper recovery work.

He needs to say: 'I did this. I was wrong. This is what I will do to fix it'. Nothing less will do.

A true Plan A involves the B spouse making it clear she will expect her needs to be met in the future and that she is accepting no excuses.

Plan A does not involve supporting his delusions that the A was not his choice. Do NOT make him feel warm and fuzzy about it all by joining in his navel gazing.

If we can create enough of those feel good feelings to make him feel comfortable with me then he will stop or at the very least postpone the divorce and we would enter a plan/program.

Translation

Make me feel better and then maybe I will think about playing your game. I can't possibly take any responsibility for my actions because it wasn't my fault.........

whaaaaaaaaaa

Seriously honey, is this what you want? Does he want a wife or a mummy?

That was the point when I changed things in my situation .....when I realised I wasn't really in the business of wanting to be his mummy. On one occasion he even asked me to fix it......well his version of me fixing it was for me to make it up with Ginge so he could carry on cake eating without any grief from me.....

I did fix it, but fixed it so his relationship with ginge was over and he had some choices to make.

I stopped being his comfort blanket and stood up for what I wanted. Mainly for there to but just 2 people in the marriage and a marriage that was working for both of us.

No it's not easy, I still have horrid days but we are now moving forward.

Could you ask what he plans to do to change and have a good marriage....divorce is not a plan for recovery....sorry but thats one of the foggiest things I have heard (and over 5 years I heard some brilliant fog).

He can't just blame your controlling ( I got this one too) he has a part to play, does he accept this? He was sticking his d!ck in other women, doesn't this cross his radar??

Hugs honey

Tanam & IndieGirl

Thanks for your responses. I do agree with your assessments (and have felt the same way for quite some time).

He doesn't understand the pain the A's have caused me. He doesn't understand that even though I have forgiven him I need certain things put into place for my protection (he says he understands and that if we indeed decide to be together he most certainly will do this).

When we have had our discussions turned arguments over the recovery/ relationship - when he throws up the "your never going to change card" I have come back with the "and your never going to accept responsibility card". His reaction to that is "I haven't denied anything" - Well yeah you did, for years, and on top of that you tried to make me think I was crazy for being suspicious. And while yes I appreciate him finally having the guts to tell me the truth - that was all I got "here is what happened, sorry if it hurts you, I did it because I wasn't happy" . Never once have I gotten a "I'm so sorry I hurt you , regardless of how unhappy the choices I made were wrong and hopefully one day I can make it up to you". When I remind him of this (lack of sincere apology)- he denies, says I have too said I'm sorry - sorry if it wasn't an apology that met your standards - nothing I do will ever be good enough for you. And then he goes on to remind me that if indeed we choose recovery then yes he will be willing to put Ep's into place at that point.

I have made it clear all along that while I accept my responsibility for my failures in the marriage that it and his happiness does not justify the affairs that he chose to have rather than communicate with me.

I have made it clear that recovery for me involves the following:

-NC with any of the AP's - this is to include any of the girls he had EA's with - he points out that some of the EA's were one sided ie: they had a crush on him, their ugly, it was just an ego boost- told him I don't care if he cant step up and tell these chicks that he is married and it is inappropriate for them to say things like "I miss u" and text him constantly - then it is a threat to the marriage and they need to be removed. Also told him that ex-girlfriends need to be removed from FB- if he has been weak to affairs in the past he doesn't need the temptation of reconnecting so easily when we go thru a rough patch. He balked at this and said this made him feel uncomfortable bc it was awkward to just start unfriending people that had done nothing wrong. I don't care , it is awkward for me to see you are friends with them. His response was I will never be ok with him having friends as girls - not true- there are girls he has been friends with that I had no issue with bc they were not a threat- I do however have issue with him being friends with inappropriate people (and that does include guy friends that are not marriage friendly).
-Transparency (cellphone passcode, email passwords etc)
-Move back home - unless a coach or counselor says that it is not yet recommended
-Total & complete openness and honesty - if he slips up somewhere he must tell me rather than wait to see if he gets caught. If he is not happy he must tell me so I can address the issue.
-Agree to a plan, coaching/counseling sessions

He balks when I bring these things up - says we will cross that bridge when we come to it - if we make it to that point. I have pointed out that no it is very important that he knows upfront what my expectations are - I do not want to continue this dating/plan a (whatever you want to call it) and have us get to the point of committing to true recovery only to have him say that he is not willing to do any of these things. He knows now what will be expected of him when/if that time comes.

This is reading between the lines, here. There are alot of similarities, here, to my relationship with my H. Control issues, deciet, (my H had an EA and I have found him trolling dating sites).

MY H thinks MB is a bunch of BUNK, too. I gave him a set of the CD's, he stacked them in the corner and ignored the huge pile of material.

He certainly thinks he has you where he wants you. He seems to have a sense of entitlement that you are terrified of ending this relationship.

I am here to support you, in fact I HAVE issues reading this thread because it sounds like the cycle that I have been on for years.
I am very interested in the advice you are getting. Keep reading.
BC

Sorry , this post is just a rant.

The thing that kills me is his birth father cheated on his mother while she was pregnant with him, she found out and left him, they divorced. H did not see his father again until he was 20 (after his mom and stepdad divorced and she reignited her friendship with her ex). They had a close relationship for a few years, then it was found out that this his step dad was cheating on his current wife (who we quite liked) and it caused all kinds of issues for them (her health, loss of home, loss of job etc). H pretty much cut off all communications with his dad after that point.

When his stepdad and mom divorced , H was 19. He thought his parents marriage was fine, they had been married for almost 18 years. SD comes home one day and tells mom he wants a divorce. All he says is I'm not in love with you , I'm not happy. H was devastated. I was there when he found out and remember the look of pain and fear in his eyes. For the months following me, him and his sister would go visit his SD on weekends, he claimed to his kids the whole time that there was no-one else. Blamed the D on his "crazy" wife and her depression. Finally the day comes and thru a PI his mom verifies that there was a long time affair with a married woman and he had gotten her pregnant (hence why he finally left). The D got very ugly. From that point on and to this day my H has not had any contact with his SD.

He always said how painful this was to him and his mom. How his SD had made him feel so much guilt and shame as a young child if he caught him lying but then turned around and lied to them for years. He always said that he would never put me or his family thru that same pain.

But he did.

And when I say things like it hurts me what you have done to me & the kids. He gets angry and says I am trying to use the kids to make him feel guilty- that he didn't do it to them , he did it to me.

When he first left and I asked him why he was willing to walk away from us - he said it wasn't us (me & the kids) he was walking away from - it was me.

I know he has the ability to be a good person- and a good husband. I wish he could see though how his inability to commit to fixing our marriage is hurting me (and our kids- despite what he thinks).

I will try my best to devote myself to a really good plan A - hopefully he will come around.

Barbiecat,

Thank you for the support

I am so sorry that you are here and having to deal with similar issues. I hope that we both end up with some peace some day.

You do sound like me before November last year,

if I do.....

if I do......

and the reality is that he has to do as well.

In the meantime, practice not responding to him until you have counted 15, this will leave a space for him to speak and will also have the benefit of allowing you some time to think before you speak.

I like your EP's and he really needs to make a decision about what he wants. To agree with the EP's and to move on to rebuild.

Like Barbiecat my H is not interested in MB but I do it by stealth!! ie he agreed we need to work on some issues, I make sure we have at least 15 hours UA time a week, sometimes more. I make sure he is being honest by verifying what he says and we don't talk about the A much at all any more. As it went on for 5 years and was a regular topic of conversation that has left a bit of a hole!! but it's working.

He still doesn't really seem remorseful but his other actions do make me sure that he wants this back and better than it was before.

So not all roses in the garden but fewer thorns than there were and a work in progress.

Next time you talk keep it light and fluffy, say you want him home and you want to work on things but you need him to work on things too. Try no to LB or AO just do the counting thing before responding!!

Blessings

Thank you for the feedback Tan, I greatly appreciate it and am happy to hear recovery is working out for you

Yes, I am going to try and keep all convos light and fluffy. I managed to do that last week and saw a huge response from H.

His schedule and job is very time consuming and demanding right now, he has a ton of stress as far as that is concerned. He works very long hours and he has been making great effort to be here for dinner every night - usually he would leave within 30 mins of eating but last week pretty much every night he hung out for awhile and relaxed with me & the kids. He started calling me thru out the day rather than just texting. The hugs he gave me were nice big squeeze you til you pop hugs. On Friday while I was at work and having a crazy morning and couldn't respond to his texts right away - he texted that he was missing me and feeling disconnected from me (he was joking but still felt good that he acknowledged the emptiness that he felt when I wasnt there). He picked me and the kids up Friday night and took us out to eat and shopping. Saturday we both had to work until the afternoon - but he touched base with me several times thru out the day - he then invited me to spend the evening with him - nothing fancy but it was nice just to hang out together (dinner, window shopping, errand running, checking out his companies new office space). Sunday he picked me up really early and we headed to Atlanta (3.5 hrs away) to pick up some furniture for his office- got along great - had nice (non-relationship) conversation.

So we had a pretty good week last week. And that is when he gets hurt and confused because after a good week or after a great date night - I literally flip out on him and tell him he needs to come home, he needs to commit to recovery. So then he gets scared bc he is like I am damned if I do damned if I don't. He's like I want to take you on nice dates but not if your going to flip out the next day. He doesn't want to feel punished when he feels like he is trying (in his own way).

mmmm so you are both trying and then your mouth gets in the way!!

Yep know that feeling, next time, maybe just say as he's going, I wish you were staying, kiss, smile, wave and close the door. Nuffin else, nuffin about recovery, just the smile and the wish.

Play up to his need for admiration a bit, tell him you had a good time....

read the Art of war (there is a link on Indie's thread.

Light, fluffy, smell and look great and put mouth on hold!! (I know easier said than done!!)

Ps remember he is just a man. Some things are harder for them.

Read why men don't listen and women can't read maps!! It might help you understand where he's coming from!

BC,

there are parts of me that feels he think he has me where he wants me (entitlement).

But there are parts of me that thinks he is truly scared of me changing my mind and leaving him (after he has opened up the truth to me, after he falls for me again etc).

The reason I say this is, I was always that girl that made it clear to him that I would not tolerate cheating, that I would leave, that I would make his life hell. Once I found out and confronted him (prior to his complete confession letter)- I could see the glaze come over his eyes - he immediately shut down on me. He would flip flop between the I love you - I don't love you. But I will admit I said some really hateful things those first couple weeks (on top of throwing all of his clothes outside in the rain - and the dog peed on them and the racoons sifted thru them). But I said things like "My love is dead for you ,move along" . Bad things.

I have shown in the past some pretty mean and vindictive behavior towards others that have hurt me. I think he was always afraid of what I would actually do when/if I found out. I think this made him afraid and depressed even more and I think it became a downward spiral for him.

He knows I can have a mean streak, know how to carry a grudge and have total recall memory. This all scares him.

He is scared of him committing to recovery and falling back into a comfort zone with me and me yanking the rug out from under him.

He has always looked to be the well liked guy, seeks admiration and wants everyone to like him. He is gun shy in many ways. Afraid of rejection. That is one reason the PA's were with the escorts and not with the EA partners , bc he knew the escorts couldn't tell him no - there was no fear of rejection. He also knew that if he didn't want to have anything else to do with them he didn't have to and could avoid conflict and drama.

In many ways I represent conflict to him. And that scares him.

Knox - I am in an identical place with I think the same WH. I am in dark Plan B.

It is helping me heal. I have no idea how my WH is responding. I know he wants us to be friends after the divorce.

I have reassured him 1000x we will never be friends, speak, talk, no holidays, visit, etc. if he goes through this divorce.

There is no reason for this divorce - he is divorcing me for these reasons. (Granted my assumptions from all his fogbabble he has spewed!!!!)

1) Don't want to go back to Tough because she will beat me up and I want to take no responsibility for my actions.

2) Tough deserved me leaving her for OW - she was an awful wife.

3) I am so good looking - I deserve to have a good looking wife on my arm. (My weight gain is an issue for him.)

4) Tough isn't nice to me with her boundaries - I deserve unconditional love because I am entitled.

5) Divorcing Tough is the easy way out because "You Know" she is the reason our marriage failed and I was an outstanding husband.

6) Returning to the marriage means I have to own the behavior I did, which means I have to apologize to my colleagues and others because of my behavior and that is not going to happen because I have too much pride.

7) Divorcing Tough makes me look like I didn't leave her for OW.

Can you see how this makes no sense? Seriously - these are his reasons and I would be banging my head against the wall if I was not in Plan B.

Today is 1 September. My WH can file for divorce today. I am waiting to be served and will likely be divorced by January 2012.

It is okay because I did everything I could to save my marriage.

HE IS DIVORCING ME FOR HIS ISSUES. Today is has nothing to do with me or our Pre-A marriage. Today he is FUBAR in his own little world, and until he figures it out I cannot help him.

I no longer am going to rescue him or be his mommy. I did that for almost 16 years as his wife.

Like so many your thread is my twin. MY WH is your WH and I enjoy the feedback you are getting. Because this allows me to sit in Plan B and know I am much better off without that wayward of a boy of a husband of mine.

It is sad for my four kids. I know I will surround them with other great male role models. I will no longer rely on him to be a male influence in my kid's lives.

Tough~