Yes, Yes, Yes!!! Tanam, you got it right. And this is what I have been trying to explain. My husband is not being mean to me- he may have been in the beginning- but since late June/early July he has been trying to reconnect with me.

I told him in order to do so take me on dates, and not movie dates where we couldn't talk but fun engaging, new to us experience dates. He did that. He was happy as could be end of the night , getting flirty with me , would come bounding up the steps the next day to happily greet me. And what would he be met with? My stone faced glaze telling him he's not good enough, never going to change, if he wants me he better come home and get serious about recovery. I would light into him and not let up. So he then gets on the defensive , we argue and he walks away wounded. He tells me my response hurt him and that he's trying to move forward with me but scared he's going to get attacked. I promise I won't - he makes another nice gesture/move again and BAM out I come swinging the next day. Every - Single- Time.

I am not trying to shift blame for his affairs to me.. I know he is responsible for those. But I am trying to be 100% candid here and show you guys how bat poop crazy I have been and why this has hurt us making it to an actual recovery.

I tell him I need more time from him with me and the family - so he gives that to me. Then at the end of the week I tally up my mental time card (yes I keep one) and if it is even 10 mins shorter than the week before - I light into him.

If I sense his stress level his high that day at work and know that him taking time to come see us is going to add to the stress - I volunteer that he can forgo his visit and I won't be upset- then when he suggest that he may just have to do that but he'll make it up to us the next night. I light into him.

So yes, he has been trying to reconnect and I can't keep my magical thoughts, demanding behavior and sharp tongue to myself.

I appreciate what everyone is saying about him & his faults - and yes I do agree with some. But I am trying to portray the accurate truth here - and yes that may paint me in a bad/crazy light- but I have my own issues and they are not helping this situation at all.

I know you guys may be used to having to convince others their behavior is crazy- but I am here freely admitting that I have been sabotaging our path to recovery and I am not sure why.

Suggestions like Tanam's regarding count to 15 before I speak are very helpful - and any others I can get would be appreciated.

This is why I say I need to demonstrate a successful Plan A first and foremost because what I have been doing thus far hasn't been good.

And when I fly off the handle I tell him well you wanted a divorce, I'm giving you the divorce so your free to go do whatever you please.

He responds with "I am, I am right here spending all of my free time with the one person in the world that I want to have a relationship with, just because I am not living here does not mean that I do not have hope for us, I do. Just because I am not ready to join a program today does not mean that I won't - but every time I get one step closer you push me away. I hope more than anyone we can make it to the recovery path but you have got to quit with these outbursts every time I try and take a step forward with you"

runnin before walking is established eh.

OK some other tips.....breathe out, drop your shoulders and smile, it does something to brain chemistry and stops that 'face'

Try hearing what you are going to say before you say it, and then listen to it....how would you respond?

have some stock phrases you can use when you feel a growl or demand coming on....biscuit? drink? suggest a massage? Save a good joke......anything rather than relationship talk...anything

Don't know where you are with SF but maybe greet him in something skimpy and suggest a quickie?

Seems as though you two really need to reconnect, work out if you like each other which is different from love.

The 15 seconds thing is good too as it may also give him time to say something else, and as you wait another 15 before you respond....and so on.....it worked with plonker and he is an engineer and really doesn't do all that talking about feelings stuff.

give him some room to manoeuvre, maybe drop any expectations for a while and just BE, there is a thread somewhere about being Still, worth a read, will see if I can find it.

read other threads too, mine is over on recovery if it would help.

Blessings

I don't know how to do links but a lot of this made sense to me, hope it helps you.

Thank you again Tanam for the great advice. Running before walking - yes that is what I have been trying to do and trying to force him to do.

Reconnecting is exactly what we need- and what he has been recommending. H has said that we need to take this time to get to know eachother again - and see if we even like who the other person is. As well as use this time for each of us to work on our own issues as well. He has said that us spending time together and having fun is building those feel good feelings and that will help lead us to the next step.

Unfortunately, one of my weaknesses is I have always been an immediate gratification girl . I look for quick fixes. He says that thats not what we're going to get this time around because if we are going to truly fix this it will take time. Could be weeks- could be months (as he said no-one knows). But every time I pitch a fit it is like the clock is starting all over again.

He is practicing celibacy right now. I had expressed desire for SF with him - but he says he is not emotionally ready. He wants to know that we have established an emotional connection before that happens, he also said he wants to show me respect and for me to feel respected when that happens.

I appreciate the be still writing that you posted. It makes me think that I need to get back to my Zen books I was reading - they were helping , but then I kind of just put them down and didn't go back to them.

You can't FORCE him to do anything. The only thing you can do is to set your standards. If he's willing to meet them, the perhaps he can remain your husband.

If he's not, then it's not worth your time. It's as simple as that (to say!)

The question is, what are you willing to accept? Excuses, blame, what is acceptable? So he doesn't trust you to keep his past behavior a secret. Good! He shouldn't trust that you'll lie to others about who he is. If he wants you to tell a different story about him, he needs to live a different story.

If he's good, that's the story you'll tell. If he's a cake eating knucklehead, he can be certain that's the story you will tell.

I still say set the bar high. Don't worry about the short clock. If you are as important to him as he says you are, he'll rise to the challenge. If having things his way are more important that rebuilding a romantic relationship with you to the standard that pleases you, then is he really worth the time, effort and aggravation?

That's for you to decide.

I don't want to shake your tree here, but you do have full transparency, correct?

If you have no evidence that his need for SF is being met elsewhere (including porn and/or masturbation) - then this can actually be a good thing.

If he is truly remaining celibate for the time being, then it can allow him to "rewire" his SF associations (as it can for you).

Think of it like when you are sick and can't eat, and then you have a piece of toast. It's the best darn thing you have ever eaten!

It also allows the building of anticipation and desire, and can really help build that spark up.

Enlightened Ex,

Thank you for your feedback and while I can appreciate what you're saying - I don't know that it 100% applies to my situation.

Yes, I do need to set the bar high and let him know what I expect from a marriage and my husband. And I have shared that with him. He is working to get there so that we can join into a recovery program together.

I know his A's were bad, but lets not forget I had my own 2 EA's as well. Maybe they did not turn into a PA but they were still just as equally painful and hurtful to him I am sure. I am not accepting blame for his A's nor should he accept blame for mine.

But is an A in a marriage any worse than being the victim of emotional abuse ? Because even though you guys may not see it (even though I am admitting it has been done on my part) that is what he received in the form of control by me (and controlling behavior does follow under emotional abuse). I agree that me setting boundaries is not abuse/controlling, but there were many other things that I did that would fall under that category. Does it excuse his A's? No. But should he have to endure that type of behavior by me ? No.

So with that being said , does he not have just as much right to set his own standards high and say "I am not going to tolerate this behavior any more".

Maybe I have the right to feel how I do right now (angry, hurt, betrayed)- but what he endured from me caused him to feel those same pains. The difference is I am very vocal in my pain and he was not. Doesn't mean he didn't feel it though and doesn't mean it hurt any less. Maybe he didn't express to me then how I was hurting him or making him feel, but he did to others. Just because you didn't hear the victim scream doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed.

I apologize, but I feel like every day I am enlightened, and after my conversation with him last night as well as writing on this board I have thought about many of these things over night.

If someone already felt controlled/manipulated throughout most of their marriage , would my behavior that I have been exhibiting not make them feel even more controlled? Me demanding "you do this, this way and in this time frame" . If someone has been trying to break free from that oppression for a long time then yes I could see how he feels the way he does.

Someone asked earlier in the thread- If I was really this controlling/ manipulative why would he still want to date me? I dunno , maybe bc he loves me and hopes for change. I mean why do victims of physical abuse stick around in relationships or go onto a new relationship that is just as abusive?

I am not trying to excuse his A's. But I am trying to fess up to my emotional abuse that I doled out on him - it's a little frustrating to feel that I have to convince others of this when I am freely admitting it lol.

I guess I look at it like this. If someone who had a severe drinking problem came here and said that their spouse cheated on them but that the core problem of their marriage was the BS's alcoholism, no you wouldn't excuse the A, but would you expect and encourage the WS to meet the BS high standards without the BS addressing their own issues (alcoholism) - would you think it was healthy for the two to enter a path to recovery that only addressed the A but not the drinking problem.

I guess after ranting and rambling , and my H and I's own discussion last night , this is how I feel. Yeah we need to get on a path to recovery. Boundaries on both parts need to be set. Expectations and standards on both sides need to be met. But it is unfair of me to put the oneness on him when I have not been willing to exhibit change in my own destructive behavior. It's not right for me to say ok heres the bar , prove to me you can meet it when I haven't been able to meet his. I will be the first to say I have seen change on his part, but when I honestly take a look at myself ? No, not much- at least not real change.

Can I suggest that you show the post you just made to your H?

It might just give you both some space and allow for some understanding cos I kinda feel there has been a lot of

It's all your fault, no it's all your fault, well I'll accept my part if you accept your part, you are controlling, you are a pig etc etc etc.

Jst print it out and give it to him to read when he leaves so that way he has time to think before he responds.

Might also be worth suggesting he writes a reply for you so you don't get back into

Yes but you


Yes but you etc etc!

I think that might just convince him that you accept your part and allow him to accept his???

Just a thought honey

It sounds like you are beating yourself up pretty good, here. Some advice, quit it - there is no future in it.

Your WH A's are one topic, your controlling is different. Stop excusing him, work on your own side of the fence.

If you were "alpha" or the stronger personality, it does not mean you always abused your H. You have to see this part of your personality for what it is, both good and bad.

You can alter your interactions and thoughts, but you are not going to change the person you are, but you can work on honing your instincts. If you beat up yourself and try to change everything, you will not be happy there, either.

This does not mean that you can not improve your behaviors, actions and interactions with your H. That is the building step of MB. This is going to be really hard. Very worth the effort, but anyone who tells you different is selling something.

If you chalk up all your controlling as abuse, eventually you are going to build up resentment, because not all of your traits are abusive. They can also be seen as natural positives that helped you get to where you are in life.

At one point, he was attracted to this energy in you. In a lot of long term relationships this inital attraction can be what drives the M apart. Very common, I believe.

You sound so much like me years ago.

Then both you sign up for coaching with the MB team and let a trained third party determine who is abusive, controlling, manipulative, or just not a good partner when it comes to marriage.

Personally, I'm concerned you are each using your own, very biased filters right now, and could greatly benefit from someone who can see through the smoke and get to the heart of the issue.

If you feel you have stuff to work on, then work on it. Maybe I missed the part where he said he sees the value of a program such as MB. I simply don't feel confident that he'll find his way on his own. I don't feel confident that you are the one to coach him along.

So if he won't get professional help, why would you expect things to get better when he's not adding to his relational toolbox?

You can probably let everything else go and still have the boundary that a program must be chosen that you BOTH will embrace and enthusiastically work, under the coaching of a trained professional.

The folks who participate here believe MB to be the best of breed when it comes to such programs. But if your husband is not willing to have any professional help or coaching, then what is your source of confidence that things will get better?

If you keep doing the things you did before, you'll get the results you got before. If he's not learning new behaviors, and learning how to make them a permanent part of his life, then things either will not get better or will not stay better.

OMG people, do you not understand this? This isn't going in the way of recovery, her WH is DIVORCING HER IN DAYS. DAYS people.

I am sorry, but instead of giving this poster advice on how to save her marriage, I have read the last few pages on how to appease the man who is DESTROYING her marriage and gaslighting her(except you Barbie, LUV ya).

Seriously, you need to get into Plan B and NOWWWWWWW.

There is ONE reason your WH is divorcing you, because he doesn't want to be married to you anymore. He wants to be single and "date" you now, but only because, as has been mentioned before, he is currently a FREELOADER. Did you even look into what that was yet?

My suggestion, get into Plan B TODAY, and then read the book about freeloaders and see what is happening in YOUR life.

i agree with scot.......

yup

Hmmm... I am curious as to whether the last few posters (up to Scot) have even read the last few pages of my thread?

I told you guys I am upfront, opinionated and not afraid to speak my mind, and frankly don't give a crap what anyone much less anonymous strangers think about me - so with that being said I apologize up front if this post I am about to make offends anyone , but I am going to speak my mind.

First thanks to everyone who has contributed their time & effort to this thread. I do agree with MB principals- however I do not believe it is as simple as saying 1 plan initiated in 1 way works for everyone. I am pretty sure I read in one of Dr. Harley's materials that certain individual issues must be addressed first. I have admitted that I have control/ emotional abuse issues. And no this does not just come from my H telling me this - I was in denial for awhile on the issue. After researching Emotional Abuse/ Controlling Behavior I saw where I did in fact match several of the examples given.

If me & my H's roles were reversed, and he had and was continuing to Physically abuse me, and I cheated and I was being told that I needed to return to him and make the marriage work regardless of his continuous abuse and without any effort to change , I would tell you to screw off. Sorry but I would. No way would I return to that type of behavior in a marriage without me first seeing some change from him as well.

Many researchers say that emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse.

After reviewing my behavior patterns over the last couple months I can honestly say I have not changed enough. If I had shown my H that change I have absolutley no doubt in my mind that we would be on our road to recovery following a coaching plan.

No my behavior does not excuse his A's. But remember I had 2 EA's of my own - so it's not like either of us is innocent here.

There is no purpose in him coming back at home at this time and committing to rebuilding the marriage if I am unable to fix my issues or at least show him significant change on my part. That is my thoughts - not just his. And yes, it took me awhile to get there.

Whether you believe it or not my H would like to return home, he would like to see us recover our marriage - but he needs to know that he won't be returning to the same emotionally abusive relationship that he was once in.

I am sorry if you can not understand that.

And yes I do recognize the difference between healthy boundaries and control. And I will agree that not everything that I have asked of him is controlling - but there was a lot of controlling over the years by me.

I don't like coming on my thread and seeing a poster practically scream in manic hysteria and berate the people that have been giving me advice that I appreciate. And I actually have months (minimum) not days before anything is finalized. I am sure you are well meaning , but not all of our situations are the same. My H is not in active affair - he is not out currently catting around. His time and life at this point consists of 16 hour days at his job, spending time with me & the kids and going home to his moms house at night. THAT IS IT.

If there were active affairs then yes I might take the more traditional MB route. But there is NOT.

Yes he filed for D, I pushed him to do that. I issued ultimatum after ultimatum come home or file for the D. Even when I saw active effort on his part I went bat poop crazy and told him to get lost, file the D and leave my life for ever. I got exactly what I asked him to do. And even then he made it clear to me that he was not giving up on us.

You tell me to look at his actions and not his words- and that is what I am doing. I am not sitting around twiddling my thumbs thinking that he'll come a courting after the D, I am looking at the actions he has displayed in the last 1-2 months - which are a complete turn around from when he first left. And the change I have seen in him is much more than the change I have seen in myself. And no that is not easy to admit. Yes I have Ep's and standards that I will expect him to meet one day if in fact we decide to begin the recovery process - but we're not quite there yet.

I am well aware of what a freeloader mentality is - I have been reading the site since May (as well as many other books and sites). You are free to your own opinion to view him that way- I view it as we are using this time to reconnect. If I wasn't seeing dramatic change in him or if the affair was still ongoing then yes I would go into immediate Plan B- but that is not where we are at at this point.

So insinuate that I am dense if you want, assume that I am sitting here an emotional wreck - tell me over and over again how I need to go into Plan B immediately for my own sanity. Well even though the thought we might end in Divorce saddens me - I am not an emotional wreck like I was those first two months- I am taking care of myself, my business . my kids and trying to reconnect with my H. The only drama that has been happening in my life if the manic freak outs that I dole out once a week - but now after seriously reflecting on those for the last day or two I think I know what I need to do to reign those in.

I am at peace with the fact that this may indeed end in the D, happy by it? No but at peace- so I am going to spend my potentially last few months married trying to reconnect with my H. Knowing him, me and our situation I feel it is the best solution for ME.

I commend those of you that have planned B for months if not years, I am happy that has worked for you, but that is not a limbo I want to live in.

I will be contacting the MB Coaches for coaching for myself - if they recommend something different than I will certainly take that into account.

At this point I would like to thank everyone who has contributed their time and advice to this thread. I think since it is obvious that I am not willing to follow the exact path that others deem appropriate for me that I will probably bow out of the forum. No use in being the rebel that causes frustration around here

Again, thank you for your time and I wish everyone the best of luck in their own situations!

What helped me a lot, overcoming anger and bitterness, which had nested itselves in my life, was a bible study on Collossians 3.
It says there "put to death" and "put them all away", you could also translate it as kill the evil in you and take of the clothes of bitterness, anger, etc. and put on the clothes of kindness, patience and so on.
It does not say: Try to do this when you feel you may be ready for it. Just Do It. If You make the decision to put away your anger, you will see it becomes easier each time.
I printed the text out and glued it to the wall opposite from the toilet, so I see it every day! But you just have to decide to take of these old clothes!

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[c] 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[d] with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on then, as God�s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.Rules for Christian Households
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

God Bless you,

Happyheart

Hi Knox,

would be a shame to see you go, but I would understand that too. I did spend time yesterday posting to you and I think I can see what you are saying, it's like the A's are not the issue there are bigger things going on for you and so you don't feel that the steps fit your situation, for what it's worth I agree with you and commend your willingness to look at yourself and your behaviour and how that has contributed to the current situation.

Sometimes change has to start with ourselves and Knox has demonstrated that ability with honesty and integrity. She has listened to what her H has said and also listened to herself.

Knox you can if you like ask the mods to pass on my email if you would like to continue this off the boards!

Blessings

OK, reality check.

I do not beleive you have read the background material here. If you did, you would understand where a lot of the advice is coming from. Quite a bit of the info is outlined for free and posted here, but a real great "jump start" rescource are the books SA and LB. You can check the library or order them here. I downloaded mine to a kindle in 1 minute.

The people posting here are busy and in my opinion, very kind to take time out of their lives to help you. For free. With no strings attached. Most of these posters not only understand the MB basic concepts, but have lived through the he77 you have.

Your situation is not special or very different from the others here,

You seem to rush into conclusions/solutions. That is a sign of a strong leader. It may not be the best possible thing for you to do now.

What do you have to lose by applying the MB materials to your situation?

I am sorry that you have abuse physical/emotional in your relationship. If you have studied the wheel of power/abuse you may have noticed that it is a cycle, and there are many contributing factors in this dynamic. True CHANGE is only generated with RH and personal work. These are very much MB principles, built right into the system.

There is no way "waiting to see if things get better" is going to help you. JMO -
been there, done that, bought the shirt and now back again.

Good Luck to you.
PS. By first saying "Oh, yeah,. I am a strong, opinionated person" does not give you free reign to jump on here and be obnoxious. (this is my RH)
Even to an annonomous board of people. (who can't type nor spell sometimes)
If you feel the need to let off built up stress and steam by "telling someone off" and venting, that may be an area you can identify and need to work on.

barbiecat.....truth in her reply. Total truth.

You are not in a unique situation knox.

We just reply from our knowledge of that.

We are here for you if you want to keep working through this............

and you don't have to take our advice. This is your marriage and you decide all things.

Thank you for sharing the verses Happyhearrt, I appreciate it