I'm not trying to brush any of you off either. I see what you are saying and I definetly dont want my boys learning that is proper treatment of a woman. You've all got good points and I've been thinking a lot. I just wish there was something in home I could try first before attemptinga seperation.

I've also written Marriage builders and hope they respond. I'd be interested in knowing if their thoughts are the same about seperation.

But you are not the one with the anger problem. He is! He needs to be in anger management, and if he is ever violent toward you again, he needs to be reported to the police each and every time.

As for you, I believe you've been given a number of things you should try, including exposing his abuse.

That would be a pretty incredible way for God to discipline him, wouldn't it?

As a Christian, can you trust that God will decide what consequences he needs to face and whether or not he needs to face this one?

Or are you going to try to protect your husband from the discipline of the Lord by hiding what he is doing?

Read Matthew 18 again. If your brother sins against you, it does not say to ignore it, sweep it under the rug, forgive it without repentance. It says to confront your brother and then bring up various forces of accountability, starting with the church, and moving on towards him living outside of the church and subject to the serious consequences out there (such as the government, appointed by God to weird the sword to punish evildoers).

Speckled, if you want to try to do something, why don't you investigate some time reading what Dr. Harley has to say about anger in marriages?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

On this second page, look down the left hand side, and there is lots of reading material for you. 2 articles on angry outbursts, 3 articles on domestic violence, SIX articles on abusive marriages. Please go read these and start getting informed about what your options are.

You already know that, though. I showed you a quote frm Dr Harley's article. That was not our own personal opinion, but Dr Harley's opinion.

I've been there, too. Once, in a fit of rage, my husband left a bruise on my arm, and one on my hip. He now knows that if he ever lays a hand on me again, I'm calling the cops and he's out.

Thankfully, Markos saw how damaging his anger was.

The only way through this is for your husband to learn to control himself. He has no reason to do that right now, because you just take it.

I find it interesting that you handled all of this without your "just pray through it" idea, but when it comes to your husband being angry and violent and abusive, you hide behind "just pray through it." I hope I'm not coming across as harsh, but all of this taken as a whole sounds like you just do what you think is best and sometimes justify it with ideas from your faith.


Please really do read through all of those articles from Dr. Harley on anger and control. They should give you a lot to think about.


Dr. Harley has some great material on negotiation, but the first step is for the two of you to make the situation safe by eliminating demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. So you can't negotiate anything at this point.


You might could try this:
Tell your husband "I am not going to tolerate your angry outbursts any more. If you don't get into an effective anger management program, I am not going to live with you any more." Hold the phone ready to call 911 if there is any violence. If he enters anger management, you might not have to have a separation. Maybe. Please check with Dr. Harley first to see what he thinks. If he refuses, you really have no good alternatives. Decide now to call the police any time your husband becomes violent, for the rest of your life. I promise that a ride to jail will be some excellent therapy for him!


I have no idea why you'd lose the therapy. Separated fathers still have to provide for their children, and can be made to do so by a court of law. This just sounds like an excuse not to pursue a course of action you don't want to take. First it was your faith that prevents you, then it was your family, now it is your son's therapy. The reason you can't nail down a single reason is because you just don't want to do this and are looking for rationalizations not to do it.

Did you read my post? I HAVE been in your situation. (All except being married to a non citizen.) My XInlaws had a lot of money and XH would threaten me that he would bury me with legal troubles that his mom would pay for and I would lose everything. My XH made a lot of money and I was a SAHM at his 'mercy'....he treated me the same way about buying things that he didn't want me to have. And with a reasonable man POJA would work, but with a violent, abusive UNreasonable one it will never work. As you have figured out, your choices are to a)do it his way on all matters thus killing yourself as you become a doormat or b)going against him at times and thus incurring his rage and all the consequences that implies.




This means you hold all the cards Speckled. He clearly doesn't think you will EVER use those cards to protect yourself or your children, but nonetheless you hold the cards.



Why would you lose the therapy if you left? And why do you assume you would have to leave? If you file for a legal seperation you can request the judge give you residency of the home and make your husband move out.

At the very least begin to keep records of his abusive treatment of you. This will be for YOUR benefit, so that you can see the reality of what a 'little bit' of abuse really means.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this predicament. right now, you are so weak when it comes to standing up for true Christian treatment that you might lose a battle of fighting your way out of a wet paper bag - you're that weak!

Please understand - I don't say this to be unkind. You have to recognize that you are being abused TO DEATH because you don't find your inner strength or your right to be treated with dignity, respect and love.

Part of that is because you rationalize. Do you know how scary it is for a shelter worker to hear that phrase that you said, "he only hit me once" or "he only bruised me once" but the content of your interactions "Woman get that pan" or other orders where he dehumanizes you - it's all part of the domestic violence pattern and you have no idea how dangerous your rationalization is to you and your sons!

I stopped counting how many rationalizations you've made, just in the last few days, on this board. Could it be that your mom is asking questions out of concern for her daughter's safety rather than her compliance with a warped and twisted version of "christianity?" (I can't even capitalize the word because what you claim as the rules of your faith is so far from how Jesus would have you be treated as a woman, as a wife, as a mother, as a daughter of God, it must not be named after Him!)

Marriage Builders will not work for you. I guarantee you it will only get you closer to getting killed. Harley himself says it will not work in cases of addiction or abuse.

I would recommend you go to the newsletter section and read the three part series called "When to Call it Quits".

Then find yourself a true Christian support group and find your way to a shelter, with your children. Do not leave them in his hands. He will hurt them to get you to comply. That's his next move. I've seen this too many times to the point where I wish I hadn't read your thread.

You need to rewire your heart, mind and faith immediately if you are going to survive and raise your sons to be something different than the brute man you call husband and their father!

I suspect this is true and I have been there done that. Although all of those are valid reasons and part of why you stay, the real reason is that you are terrified. It is a terrifying thing to stand up and say, 'I'm not going to take this anymore' to a bully who happens to be your husband and father to your children.

It is terrifying and it is not easy at first. That is why you need your family and your church if they will help. You won't know if you don't tell them what is going on.

Same with me, Kayla.

I am concerned for this poster for her own safety, but even more concerned for her children. They are living in a toxic soup, where they are observing the humiliation of their mother at the hands of their father. If only for that the poster needs to make an immediate change. She appears to not want to do the heavy lifting that will be required to save her marriage and her family.

So true.

Speckled - I am so sorry that you will have to do the heavy lifting and the leaving here to stop. He. Will. Not. Change. You cannot hang your life on that hope. He has no kindness in his heart when he turns abusive. And You. Have. No. Control. Over. When. That. Happens.

Look into your children's faces the next time he has an outburst. Consider that they in time will become perpetrators and treat their wives and children this same way.

Unless. You. Get. Tough. And. STOP. IT.

I thank you for all your comments. I've certainly been in endless thought all day long. I mean it can't be that hard not to have a little understanding why I just don't jump up and say okay I'll seperate right now after reading some comments. I mean I've been raised a certain way my whole life. I've been married 6 years dating 3 have 2 kids and he generally is a nice guy most of the time. So of course I love him the kids adore him. The reason I keep giving different reasons is every time I think about even a temporary seperation I have a pros and cons list. My family always makes big decisions with pros and cons lists. So yes there are pros but also lots of cons. And I thought of another one that my husbands insurance pays for surgeries and treatments for a genetic condition I have that has horrible consequences if I stop treatments. On my own I could never afford the thousands of dollars it costs. Again I have no money my husbands family has lots I'd be terrified that he'd get the kids. My kids are number one to me I could not handle having them taken. And I'm always told what a sweet gentle wonderful guy he is so I think no one would believe me. I have no evidence other then my word. So of course I'm not jumping up and down immediately like okay i'm leaving. And I adore my children and if he ever went near one of them in a threatening way I'd be out the door with them in a second at the police station. Right now they are too young to know what mean or degrading words he uses at me mean thats why I want to stop this now. I read through lots of the articles on abuse and anger etc as recommended. There was lots of good advice. And lots of talk on avoiding conflict. When I'm upset or angry I generally go on a walk or put myself in another room of the house so that I wont say something I regret so maybe I should tell him if he gets angry to go out and cool down. Its all so overwhelming I want to do something or I wouldn't have come on here but of course I'm scared to just walk out on everything I've ever known. I'm wondering if I should write him a letter. I say a letter because if i tried to tell him face to face he wouldn't let me finish and he frequently just falls asleep or turns on the tv when I try to have a conversation with him. In the past when I've said I wished we would talk he said just bla I'll listen while not turning from the tv for a second. So I have to communicate important things in letters because he'll read those. I wonder if I should just write out all the main issues and abuses incidents and at the end say that enough is enough if you ever do it again then I'm talking the kids and leaving. That at least gives him a chance to change. Oh and in regards to going to the church we moved a few years ago and have been bouncing around various churches trying them out but haven't settled in one so we dont have a home church that I could approach. So don't think I'm ignoring all your advice I am thinking about it and see wisdom in your words and I know I can't just continue to sit and do nothing.

After spending awhile on this site though reading articles you really start to think are humans crazy? Why do we get married when it seems life is an endless battle afterwards struggling to maintain a healthy relationship. Mine started falling apart like a month after the I Dos when my husband started losing interest in sex, communication and romance. I was away for a week and he kept telling me he had a wonderful surprise when I returned (not long after marriage) so wanting to surprise him as well I got him a bunch of his favorite treats to give to him when I got home. When I got back he gave me a half drunk bottle of pop and said SURPRISE but then enjoyed all the treats I'd brought him. Before marriage hed write long love poems, take me on surprise romantic dates etc. After marriage on my anniversary I got a card with just his name signed, it was prewritten by hallmark but had very sweet words. And I'm like aw thats so thoughtful. Then he said oh really? What does it say I never read it. I wonder why marriage is like this switch that okay thats it all romance is over. To me it just seemed after we got married it felt like he was like okay no longer the forbidden, the chase is over, married now so dont have to work anymore. Its so hard cause looking back its like if I could see the future I'd never be married. And I cringe and feel sad when I hear wedding announcements of friends thinking its a prison dont do it! Of course I'm not perfect I know he could make a list of things about me that bother him. Well two wonderful things came out of marriage, my children! But for single people out there I say better to be alone then to be married and wish you were alone.

Speckledlady (((hugs)))

From one abused lady to another, I will pray hard for you tonight. I am sitting here just wishing I knew what to say to make it better, but nothing will make it better until you can get stronger. I do understand though.

I Know that what everyone is saying feels like they are asking you to move mountains and you don't know how.

I know that telling you to face a monster who has hurt you in deep ways while still being wounded (which you are whether or not you can see it now or not) seems impossible but it isn't.

I know that all these things you say about how wonderful and nice he is just what you HAVE to tell yourself everyday in order to not go crazy, but that in Proverbs it talks about anger being like a heavy boulder on you. Even when he is nice, you never know when that next word, angry outburst or neglect or hit is going to come so it still sits on you my dear ALL day long. NO wonder you feel so burdened!

This is not what God wants you to do. The only reason no one knows is that your husband has asked you to become someone who will hold secrets. Terrible secrets. That is NEVER God's will and I know you know it. Just like I did.
so
1. If he ever physically or verbally makes you afraid, call the police.
I know that you are afraid that they will believe him but they won't.
This same fear- I was afraid of my H killing me after I called them-it haunted me for a long time but when I finally did call, I learned that they HAVE to believe you in order to save you. Trust me.... one mark, one bruise or even no bruises (you can even say he slapped you but you were afraid for your life with no physical evidence and they will believe you) YOU hold the cards.

I don't know about writing a letter. I know your not at the point of feeling like you can leave or kick him out so he would laugh at the letter because he is like a child. I don't know if you could hold up the consequence needed for change.
He keeps robbing the bank(abuse to you) and never goes to jail. In fact the more he robs the bank, the bolder he gets as he starts thinking that maybe the bank likes to be robbed. Except what he is doing is worse.

1. Call your family and tell them the truth without glossing over anything. TELL them you are terribly AFRAID of him. That he has hit you numerous times, he Purposely drives crazy to make you AND THE CHILDREN scared, punishes you in ways you can't understand and you need their help and prayers. You can do this. See what they say, but remember... the truth. Do not water it down.
2.Call a women's shelter, if you need help with that, we can even get you numbers JUST for information gathering.Find out all the ways they can help you and the kids.

And sweet lady, your story sound so much like mine it is scary! BE HONEST with yourself. He already has hurt your precious children. You said it yourself that he drives crazy (they are in the car too) He won't "allow" you to eat with them? What would you call that? It punished your boys as well. I have a feeling there are numerous things he does and doesn't do that are actually harming your boys. I am sorry but abuse doesn't start by just hitting or hurting like that.

*Just to share.. my ex once drove crazy to "punish" me for walking to slowly to the car from the store. I told myself the same thing (if he hurt my child I would be gone) Then he went nuts and we were in a car accident. It is a miracle that my baby boy survived. Is this how you want your sons to end up? What if they aren't so lucky?
That day I realized that I HAD be subjecting my son to all kinds of abuse. Now that he is older and has shared stories about what his dad did I did not know about makes me sick what I allowed him to go through*

Just do those 2 things first. Call domestic shelter first to find out options. Then call your family (don't worry about his). Baby steps. You CAN do those two things.

Sending love and protective hugs to you and your family.

Speckledlady,
I am so very sorry for what you have had to live with. You have no reason to listen to me. I was the marriage partner who could not control the angry outbursts. I never even swore but I was a Marine and I could turn the volume up like few others. For 22+ months now I have been in a combination of weekly or more frequent therapy for myself, and daily work with a group of men dedicated to eliminating verbal abuse and controling behavior from their actions. I had a wonderful and gentle wife who was not equipped to handle my behavior even if it was but once every three months when I would have a childish "tantrum."
I cannot imagine adding physical violence to that equation yet you have lived it. My wife lived with me and I was not a husband... I was a child. If my needs were not satisfied I yelled to get my way. And what is worse is that I lied to myself that there was nothing wrong with behaving like that. It was reading Dr. Harley's comments about angry outbursts that began my awakening. I deserve no praise for having worked hard to change myself. We don't pat guys on the back for stopping the robbing of banks. What I did is not forgiveable. I now know that my wife should have left the very first time I raised my voice. What the verbal abuser and controler does not understand is that they get the exact opposite of what they want when they verbally abuse. In my case all I had to do was raise my voice in anger. I didn't have to call my wife names and in fact I did not. All I had to do was frighten her with a shouted voice while arguing.
No one can love when they are an abuser. You are not being loved.
The simple facts are this.... Verbal Abusers often excalate to physical abusers and physical abusers with each instance, become capable of greater abuse the next time around. Do not take a chance with your children. Separate and do not return until there is ENORMOUS evidence that your husband has committed his living differently. You have no chance of his changing until he freely admits his abuse to your and his family.
Please listen. Even if you have no physical marks on you, what he is doing to your mind is worse. You do not deserve that.

Read my tag line and you will see where verbal abuse and controlling behavior got me...

Blessings
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Speckle,

Marriage is a covenant you and you husband have made before God. That is Christian marriage. your husband is a covenant breaker. I say this as one who is in active pastoral ministry in a Christian church. Abuse is never ok. Never. You need to take him to the elders of your church. It's only hush hush because no one ever says anything. Scripture commands us to bring sins into the light and not cover them.

There are women's shelters in most areas that help abused and battered women and children.

CV

Thanks for sharing your story with me. I know it was hard. Its always hard to admit to ones faults. Thanks for your advice. I know everyone here probably thinks I'm crazy but I really feel there would have to be another incident before I could confront him about it or consider seperating because since the last verbal abuse he has been very nice to me all week so its hard to be upset with him and if I just suddenly brought it up now after hes been nice it wouldn't make much sense to him I would think. Or sometimes I think maybe I'm just overreacting, is it really verbal abuse or is it just whta happens in regular marriages? Or I think maybe he didn't mean to hit me so hard, doesn't realise his own strength. Writing that out I think it sounds kind of dumb to believe that but it seems I just keep trying to convince myself its not that bad. I want to do something though I know I can't just sit forever like there is nothing going on. A family member suggested maybe going to a counsellor or something. From your point of view as having once abused do you think going to a counsellor together has a chance of improving the situation? I love my husband so I want this to work out.

celticvoyager I had mentioned before that I dont have a home church right now. We moved awhile back and we've been trying out various churches but have none wed call a home church right now. I am thinking of writing one of the churches that I preferred though and see if they have a christian counsellor or someone that could sit and talk to my husband and I together.