Forum,

You are all so helpful. Thanks for being a support to all us lurkers. My WW has had an EA with my best friend. When we all were together, we had a "Master Mind" and were able to near read each other's thoughts. Since they broke me out of the circle (yeah, I was naive), they have declared love for each other yet understanding that it can never work.

I have finally pushed for NC, and removal of ourselves from our mutual circle of friends. She has NO other friends, only a close sister. My problem is that she feels little shame for the way it hurts me, more shame for the way it hurts OM. NC happens this weekend, but she feels a need to do it in person. Physical contact is a minor concern (yeah, I fear it...), as OM is still a virgin and is saving himself for marriage (plus, we did too, so WW has expressed many times the shame in taking that from him).

So, because she can't muster the shame inside when she sees me hurt, she claims that she is going against her will to NC out of obedience to me. I'm not her dad, I'm her partner. I haven't seen many posts about WW that were fogged yet still chose against their will to stay with their husbands. Granted, that loyalty isn't taught in schools anymore. Is there any hope that she can make it through withdrawals enough to see me as her primary emotional concern and change her "obedience" into a more sustainable shame/forgiveness? I feel she is doing this for all the wrong reasons, and that we will result in resentment for life and living a shell of a marriage.

Where we are at: exposed to family, discussion with MC but working mainly alone with MB, 2 kids 3y/o and 3 month, live 15hrs from other supportive people, I'm in last year pharmacy school, living in Plan A.

This is called "closure sex" where the affairee meets up to have sex and tells her spouse it is for "closure." My suggestion would be to skip the "closure" sex [which is really not closing anything but perpetuating the affair] and have her send a NC letter. She should never see or speak to him again. In order to "close" a door, one closes the door, they don't open it again.

Here is what Dr Harley advises:



here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

I would explain to her that no contact is a boundary issue for you. Her affair is dangerous to you personally and to your marriage and your children's family. As such, her having no contact for life with the OM is your BOUNDARY. And she can choose to respect that or not. If she won't respect your boundary, then your marriage will end up in divorce. [and yes, it will] If she were a falling down drunk who wanted to go driving with you and the kids in the car, you would rightfully take the keys away because you have a BOUNDARY to not ride with drunks.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

Thanks Melody for the reply with quotes. They help. I am considering them, and may enforce them. Because OM and I have been friends, the three of us have had many open discussions trying to resolve this, but they just kept building. He is fully committed to sending her back my direction, but she insists upon clearing up a few things to send him on his way without bitterness and to get some closure.

Because the meeting will be in a public place, sex isn't an issue, but I understand that internal connections are still made and the affair perpetuates. He doesn't understand why she and I have to remove ourselves from this large group of caring people, and she "needs" to make sure he understands the importance.

Of course, I read and appreciate all advice... but my main concern is about her staying power when even after exposure there is not enough shame to bring her down a few pegs to feel properly ashamed. Our ENQ showed that it wasn't incompatibility that led us apart, but rather my schooling and commitments outside the home. In addition, I built in her a sexual aversion (mild) due to typical stressed male demands, and revealed to her my own porn infidelity. She feels vindicated in finally living again, and is having trouble with focusing upon wanting to be happy with me again. She is so committed to doing the right thing, that she can't muster the right reasons to do the right thing. Can it ever change?

SK, I would INSIST she not meet with the OM ever again. That should not happen and I would put a stop to that. Instead, have her send him a letter just as Dr Harley advises. She does not get to set the conditions for recovery since she is the one who had the affair. She should NEVER see the OM again. Going to see him again is extremely disrespectful to you.

The LEAST she can do, if you are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness is to insist she end all contact with him and send him a letter.

Additionally, I would have nothing more to do with the OM and have no more discussions with him. He is not your friend, he is your enemy and deserves nothing more than a very terse BUZZ OFF letter.

Since she is still in touch with the OM, she is still foggy so I would not expect her to feel any remorse. And WW's often NEVER feel remorse. But she can take responsibility for the affair.

Set her down and explain to her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. no contact for LIFE with the OM

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage."

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Sir, if you have any desire at all to save your marriage, I would suggest that you get your butt off the fence and commit to this. None of this "considering" things and "maybe" enforcing things. You can't afford to be wishy-washy about this!

I'm okay with her meeting him IF YOU ARE SITTING RIGHT THERE WITH THEM. Certainly you're not going along with a meeting for just the two of them???

She doesn't NEED to do anything with him except end the affair. She's not his mommy. He'll just have to figure things out on his own, or wander through life confused. That's his call and not your WW's problem.

YOU did not BUILD a sexual aversion in her. SHE did not communicate to you that she was falling out of love with you.

Have you cut it out with the porn?

I think it's great that she's clear enough to see that remaining in the M is her best choice. She doesn't need to 'muster' reasons right now. What she needs to do is go NC with OM and get through withdrawal. And that's not going to happen if she keeps drumming up reasons to see him for 'closure'.

SK,

Please listen to Mel and Marital they are not just giving good advice they have walked the path and know the route quite well-can't get better than that.

Is OM married? Single/divorced? I would suggest (since I have been in your shoes) that you need to expose to his family as well. The OM in my situation was single and lived 5 states away and was an only child. I had hell trying to find someone to expose to but when I found out he lived next door to his mommy I knew right away that was the ticket.

And my friend it was--after I exposed to her he called me threatening me etc..no big deal since about all the time the other person is mostly talk. I told him you keep messing with my family I will keep messing with yours....

My only regret is that I did it after the 3rd time my ww broke NC--I am in the middle of a D now but if I would've went nuclear with the initial exposure I might not be where I am at right now. I didn't know about exposure at that time but boy do I now.

To get him to leave your wife alone he has to have pressure from his side other wise he just goes on his merry way with no consequences---and that is Bullsh#t!!

To second PTH (and thanks to Marital, Mel for setting me straight on this one),

The OM is single, no kids...lives 2 miles from mommy....I thought w/ no wife, it was a no-go for exposure.

well, I sent exposure letters to OMs boss, union, his mom, 2 sisters and 1 brother...

OM fired from job within 2 hours of his boss receiving letter...union punted the ball, but VP of union called me to let me know they were "aware" of the situation and didn't condone the behavior...and then...

OMs mommy called me, and boy did she have a lot to say about my W...and our children...and her precious, innocent boy...

And, looking back, I think that was the moment the affair died.

That day.

I have cut out the porn. I was in a position for years of (just like everyone else) thinking what she doesn't know won't hurt her, and that it wasn't affecting me or us. She was completely in the dark when I told her. I felt for proper reconciliation and accountability, she needed to know. In addition, I have had other infidelities, such as gambling addiction and selfish behavior (don't we all). I finally understand that while I contributed greatly to her dissatisfaction, I am not to blame for her EA. She should have found a way to communicate with me, even though I know she tried.

OM is single 24-y/o, oldest of 7 kids, parents still married and great Christian home-schooled household. PTH, h4d, and Mel... rest assured that any EP break and I am going nuclear. Being in Pharmacy, there are teachers, his parents, our friends. That being said, his willingness to stop all contact pushes me to believe that I need to give them a chance to stay NC. My W is already exposed, and it was self-exposure. So long as he keeps complete distance, there is no need to make this bigger. I am NC whenever she is. She currently is the one asking for him to meet her, but he is already disconnecting.

For what it is worth, I am not sitting on the fence in most areas. The one place I have not asserted was that I promised her two weeks ago (b4 MB) that she could meet him one last time. I am conflicted between keeping my word (and receiving the consequences) or destroying my word when I know she is so close to the proper procedure. I think it is appropriate for me to assert that they have a final meeting while I am present, and that was a good suggestion.

Thanks so much for the care and keystrokes sent my way, guys. I know you do it for free. Anybody ever feel like evangelizing their testimonies to help others via Marital Conferences or becoming a MC?

If OM parents are that great christians then you must expose this affair at once to the OM parents.

As melody said their is no need for closure. Unless you are willing to believe their lies. The chance of this going phyiscal is all to great if it has not already.

There is no need to meet for closure.

That is what the NC letter is for.

As to meeting in a public place. Well they can start there but it won't prevent them going somewhere where they can get it on.

Your WW insisting on meeting the OM one more time is showing how she is putting the OM feeling before yours.

The problem is that she is NOT abiding by no contact, she is going to meet him. That is not no contact. That is CONTINUED AFFAIR.


Actually, it is not appropriate for her to see him at all. It is a violation of a very basic boundary and need for no contact. The only thing worse than making a bad promise is KEEPING a bad promise. This is one you need to change immediately. Let her know you have rethought this and will not stand for more contact.

Having you there completely misses the point, because she will be triggered. That needs to be avoided at all cost.

Hey, I fumbled the ball abit with the NCL, but that train has left the station.

What I can tell you is what Road and Mel are saying:

NC means NC.

Period.

No - Mel's advice is better. Scratch that meeting entirely. What consequences are you frightened by that would cause you to allow their affair to continue?

The consequences I'm ready to accept are that she be triggered, and I'm willing to accept that as she hasn't truly entered withdrawal yet. She is only scraping the surface. NC is currently to be enforced Saturday with an event, and leading up to this there has been none of the "daily contact" (text messages, miss you chat). Every contact has been transparent to me with the pretext of Sat will be the last.

I have already seen in their live interactions the loss of "fun" and his demeanor (withdrawing from her) + transparency is taking the enjoyment out of what contact she is getting. I expect that experience says that closure never really works, but I kind of want some, too. That being said, I'm trying not to be hard-headed and let the advice percolate within me. Please don't think I'm trying to disrespect any of you by hesitating in my "swift action." I really do appreciate the help you are all so willing to give, and it is making a difference in the way I view things.

SK, that is what we call enabling around here. Can I ask why you are more zealous about defending her contact with her boyfriend than in protecting your marriage? Surely you understand how destructive this meeting is to your marriage? And how absolutely unneccessary?

It is bad for her, bad for you and certainly bad for your marriage. Going along with it would be ENABLING. It is like driving the crack head to the crack house. It might make the crack head like you temporarily but it is not in his best interest.

Closure is one of those mythological, romantic - but meaningless - phrases that fall apart upon scrutiny. It is in the same category as "sould mates" and "mid life crisis." It loses all meaning when you really examine it. The problem with this logic is that if one were "closing" the door, they would close it, not open it. Having more contact is not "closing" it is opening. And with affairs, you get true "closure" by not seeing the person again.

Maybe it will help coming from me:

NO MORE CONTACT.

No meetings. No phone calls. No emails. No messenger pigeons.

NOTHING.

Frankly, I skipped the stuff in between where you first didn't see the rationale for abiding by NC to here, so maybe this has been clarified since your first post. In case it has not, or in case you are in any way on the fence:

IF you go ahead with the foolish, dangerous plan to let your WW (because she is no FWW yet) meet her OM, and, moreover, IF you let that happen UNATTENDED, I GUARANTEE YOU THIS WILL BE A PHYSICAL AFFAIR, AND YOU WILL BE DEALING WITH EVEN MORE EXTREME, PROLONGED CONSEQUENCES THAN WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW.

I'm not sure how much more clear to make this, SK.

Any "closure" you need can be obtained with a NC letter. Your WW writes it, you approve it, you take it to the mailbox, open the door, drop it in, shut the door, walk away. There's your closure.

She's still romanticising this as friendship and as 'real feelings'. You're helping her do this too. Friends/people who care dont screw with other friends marriages!

She needs to address your feelings and tell him their relationship was wrong and shameful - she needs to dump him by letter. She then needs to never give a damn about his reaction to it.

This meeting will not only trigger her A feelings. It will also show her that you validate those feelings as real by allowing it.

They arent real, it is a sick selfish addiction

Doesnt this 'ending of the relationship' sicken you? It was not friendship, or a relationship, it was adultery.

A cruel evil twisted crack habit, that involved them mincing your heart in order for them to get their fix.

Contact cannot end too soon and remorse from her cannot come too quick.

Btw, women dont respect men who do not care enough to protect their marriages. She sees you as someone who does not care as much as he does.

Excellent point.


Down the road, if your WW earns her F, she should be appalled that you let her have this last meeting. That you urged it, condoned it, helped her do it - yeah, if it were me, and my BH did that, it would generate some concern about if he were able to look out for me, my best interests, our marriage...

On the other hand, if it were me, and if it were my BH putting his foot down on this, years down the road, my F and I would have even more respect and gratitude and love for him.

But that's just me.