Hi, Friends.<P>I hadn't heard from H since our anniversary when he stopped by this morning - just to say hello.<P>I feel so sad when I see him - he looks so bad. I know now that Sweetie is not really our problem. I'm sure he still feels obligation to her of some sort, but it's definitely not love and I'm pretty sure he realizes this now.<P>The problem is him. He is so unhappy. He is so angry. He is in such denial about everything. I'm afraid I wasn't as good as usual. Didn't know he was coming. Scrubbing the kitchen floor, pre-infidelity diet jeans (looks like a million sizes too big), old t-shirt, no makeup, pony tail - hey, just the sexy look to make him want me, right? And, for all of us, it's been a sad week. Lots of bad news - here and personally. He's worried about me because of the massive weight loss and I think today, the stress showed in my face a little. Kept asking me if I was healthy, if I was ok. Lecturing me about taking care of myself. Told me at one point, no matter what, he never looked back or tried again. He wasn't THAT kind of man.<P>Some of it was casual conversation. Told me about a friend of his whose wife just asked him to leave - loves him but not "in love" with him. YUUUKKKK! Stuck a nerve and put me a little bit on my soapbox. I told him to tell friend NOT to give up - there were too many avenues of help and to avoid if at all possible the devastation that this could cause. <P> He said he knew lots of men lately that had left, the weak ones went back. ANOTHER NERVE HIT! Now don't panic - I never yell, never have. But I did say that I admired the ones who went back to work on their committment- that took the courage of a man. It was the weak ones who ran away - running is always the easiest option. Not a very nice thing to say, considering. But his dismal outlook on marriage and life had me hurting inside even more than usual.<P>We talked about daughter a little and the deaths this week - Glenn and a friend we lost as well to a heart attack yesterday. I asked him to look in on his brother. Tony and this guy were like family and he wasn't taking it well. Since you're the closest to him, I know he needs you right now. "He and I are the closest? I didn't think so." Now, since I met this man, he had always told me how much closer he and this brother were than any of the kids (and they're all very close). When H and I were together, BIL spent as many nights here as at home - that's why he feels like he needs to help take care of me and D since H left. I looked at him closely. He was serious. He doesn't remember. He really doesn't remember. <P>I understand now that all his memories of our time together really are distorted. How horrible not to remember the good, 'cause most of it was good. He says he was just "living a lie".<P>He told me he left because it was the best thing for me. I said a few things, but then I looked at his face. He's not there. He believes this. His opinion of himself is so very low. The justifications have taken hold until he has no real recollection of anything - not even the relationship b/n him and his family, much less me and D. I do hurt for him. I never brought any of this up. I never asked him any questions. It just all kept popping out as he talked. If I tried to say anything, he just starting talking a mile a minute, so I let him talk. I asked him if one day he would give me the chance to tell him how I felt about all of this. He said he already knew. I told him, that, when he was ready to hear, there were things I'd like to tell him. He said he guessed he owed me that. But, I knew today wasn't the day.<P>He says he feels as if his head's gonna explode. Not just the headaches, which are constant, but all the stuff that's turning in his head all the time. <P>It hurts so much to see this man like this. It's such a change from the wonderful man I've known all these years. I don't know if there's any hope or not. And I want so much to help him regain some sense of himself. I guess that's not my job, though. All I can do is love him and hope that he feels it.<P>That's all, I guess. Just rambling. Just sad. Thanks for listening guys. And, as always, if anyone has any suggestions, I need them desperately.<P>Lori

Lori,<P>I am be going out on a limp here, but....<BR>Ok, he took Sweetie to dinner for b-day last night, right? Perhaps things DIDN't go so well. <BR>He never just SHOWS up, right? So, why after spending an evening out w/ OW does he come to your door the next morning.<BR>I think something is out of whack.<BR>I also hear a lot of concern in his words to you. Your weight loss, etc. I think he is trying to tell you, in whatever why he can right now, that HE NEEDS YOU.<BR>I also think that this mental lapse is normal. He is not the kind of person that would do something like this. The only way he can justify it, it to forget.<BR>I wouldn't put to much emphasize on the 'not looking back' part. Remember, he has forgotten. He is only saying that right now, because he doesn't even know where he is.<BR>Keep doing your wonderful Plan A. I honestly think it is working.<BR>But, if it is getting to be to much for you, maybe you should consider Plan B. I know that isn't really in you, but you DO need to take care of yourself.<P>I pray for you and H and D every night. May God open his eyes and show your H the way home.<P>Love, <BR>Cheryl<P>PS. I e-mailed you, too!<BR>

You are such a sweetheart!!! Thanks. I'm not a Plan B-er, figured you've picked up on that. Besides, he needs my love and support and I get the feeling he sort of depends on it right now. Says he just feels he's gonna die soon and not sure that life is worth living.<P>Not like he depends on me all the time. Maybe just at his lowest point. MIL says that's because somewhere inside, he knows he loves me and needs me.<P>Shouldn't have lovebusted, though. Talking about weak and strong - not a good move. I need to prepare for these things.<P>Thanks, Cheryl. I got your e-mail. I'll be talking to you (duh!!!).<P>Lori

Lori,<BR>Sorry to hear that your feeling so down, I don't what I can say other than hang in there. It does get better. Sound familiar ?<P>This is the worst thing anyone can go through, Of course he is going to look bad. But on one hand that is good, That means it is affecting him as much as it is affecting you. In my mind that means he cares. He knows what he has done was a bad choice now he is starting to look at it, Good. Sometime people need to go to that deep dark place to figure it out. I know I did and I walked away with a renewed commitment to my W. There is still hope miss Plan A. Your doing the best you can right now and don't doubt that for a second.<P>From where I sit, a woman in faded ripped up jeans and a nasty t-shirt is darn near the sexiest thing I could think of my W in. All her fronts are gone, No makeup, No smelly stuff, No nice clothes. Don't get me wrong, I love it when she looks great and smells great but there are times when I want to see her as god made her. Does that make sense?? Sounds like that is how you were when he came by, I'll bet he was just fine with the way you looked. Better than being all gussied up when he showed. Obviously he cares about you or he wouldn't be worried about your health.<P>Remember, He is fighting to justify what he has done, So his brain is in conflict. All the stuff he says means he is really starting to think about this. Keep doing what you are doing (Plan A) He came to see you and talk, Remember that. He knows you love him or he would not have come. Let him know he is welcome there, I'm sure he already knows but never hurts to reiterate it. <P>Hang in there Lori, You are a strong woman. You have been there for me when I was down, so remember we all are here for you. This will pass, I promise. <P>Take care <P><P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Rutger-<P>I swear, you always kwow what to say. <BR>Your wife is one lucky lady.<BR>Now, I need to go dig out my ripped up jeans. I'm off to pick up D at H.<P>Cheryl<P>Sorry, Lori. Didn't mean to horn in on you.<p>[This message has been edited by ceecee (edited October 30, 1999).]

Hi Lostva -<P>Just stopping in for a minute....<P>Got lots to talk with you about...you did well and I thing that reinforcement of your weak/strong belief was not a lovebuster!!! He knows it too!!! Somewhere in that dark cavern of a brain!! You cannot agree with his delusional thinking just cuz you might lovebust!! <P>Hearing the truth is what he might need..after all whoever he is hanging with is certainly not exuding anything about right and wrong and the good in themselves!! That's who you are...that's what you represent!! That's what must remain consistant in you ..... something safe and steady in the chaos!!!<P>If you start wobbling on what you are..where is any sanity for him?<P>Again, you did good!!!!<P>I'll be back later....Guess where I am going? Now don't laugh......<P>I am going to get "smudged"!!!!<P>You know what that is? It's an energy cleansing!!!! This should be a trip!!!<P>I'll tell you all about it when I get back.....<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR>

Ok, Rutger, my friend. Now don't go throwing my own words back at me!!!! I sure hope he thought good things about the way I looked - hard to feel sexy when you're pulling your jeans up every thirty seconds to keep them from falling off!! And how appealing, he just walks in and there I am on my knees in the kitchen. (Oops - never mind, we won't EVEN go there!!)<P>You know me, I'm still fighting, sort of anyway. He does seem to be getting worse instead of better. The nervous high isn't there like it was when he first left. Maybe something IS working. Thanks a bunch. You made me laugh and feel better. I WON'T thank you for what else you made me think about!<P>Cheryl - Not horning in, not at all. You find those jeans????<P>Sheba - a WHAT????? I can't wait to hear about this. If it works, you GOTTA let me know. You really don't think it was a lovebuster? As soon as I said it, I thought, OMG, what a put-down! And I wasn't trying to put him down. He definitely has a problem w/ himself these days and it HURTS to see him hurting.<P>You'd best come back and give me a lesson on "smudging". This one I gotta hear!<P>Lori<P>

Oh, I almost forgot something really weird! When he said his friend's wife goes out every Friday night "with the girls" drinking, I said she must've found someone she's interested in. He said "really, you think so." I told him I felt that it was like that most of the time - there was an affair involved and talked a little more about the reasons for affairs. THEN, he said, but it's not really an affair if it hasn't gotten physical, is it? I told him what most of us feel about that, too. Then he said the strangest thing so low it was almost under his breath (I was walking out to get another cup of coffee). "Then that means that I really AM having an affair." I just kept on walking.<P>HUH??<P>Lori

lostva -- Hang in there. IT sounds to me like your H really is trying to find a way he can turn to you. That really is a positive thing. As for his muttered comment about having an affair. . .I think he already knows that he his having an affair, and was maybe "hoping" you wouldn't see it that way. I don't think you were lovebusting at all when you were talking with your H about infidelity. Even if you weren't talking about your relationship directly, your H may have been using "others" as a way to be able to talk you about the problems at all. Does that make sense?<P>Hang in there Lori, you really are going to make it through this.<P>God Bless

ES - I'd been hoping to hear from you again. You always make me feel better and think. (Not an easy task for this blonde these days!!) <P>I never thought of that - that he might be using them to say things to me - I can't believe I never thought of that.<P>I've been so careful to keep things mostly light and comfortable, but I couldn't stand hearing some of the things he was saying when I just don't believe in them. Maybe he was testing me just a little.<P>Good to hear from you. How're YOU guys doing, btw? It's been a little while since w's last post. Hope all's well.<P>Lori

lostva -- Things are going pretty good between hopeful and I. Thank you for asking. She is pretty sick right now though. Had to take her to the doctors on Thursday and then again this morning. She is sleeping right now.<P>As for my impressions of your conversation with your H. . .I have found myself using the approach I mentioned with my W many times. Sometimes the best way to get someone to stop and think about another viewpoint is to talk about "someone else." If you aren't involved, then there isn't as much of a threat. Anyway, it was just a possibility to consider.<P>Take care and God Bless

ES - glad things are looking good. Please give Hopeful my very best "get well" wishes! I hope she feels better very soon!!!<P>Thanks for checking back in.<P>Lori

Lori--<P>Your relationship stamina amazes me. I also applaud you saying how you really feel in the conversation w/H. You weren't lovebusting; sounds to me like you're simply not losing yourSELF as a way to get H home...you know, agreeing with him or remaining mum if you disagree. You ARE doing all the right things as best you can.<P>Doing my usual wandering through thoughts...my two cents...your H IS very lost right now. He's lost in selfishness, confusion, dismal depression, a lack of faith in God and in himself. He cannot forgive himself, for SOMEthing (or many things), so he doesn't understand how you can forgive him--it does not compute. While I applaud your ever-perseverent Plan A, I REALLY worry about you. Please don't let his continuing, confused manipulations (and yes, I DO feel he's doing quite a bit of that) to stunt your own personal growth. <P>You love him, and you show this over and over in your every caring deed. Listening to him, accepting his decisions, patiently waiting. An unannounced visit by him, even when it makes you feel uncomfortable--you wished you'd had time to freshen up a bit. I'm NOT fussing at you, per se, just please don't let him walk all over you as he wanders through this maze...a maze that we understand through MB encompasses both to create, but HE is continuing. <P>I'm wondering if it isn't time soon, while still in Plan A, to have a talk with him. The "come home" talk with him. The calm, caring talk about of course it's his decision, but keeping in mind your feelings as important as his...the situation is, putting it mildly, a "little much." You don't have to put stipulations on it, like when and how. But perhaps tell him...doesn't he think it's time to come home and begin working on what's REALLY bothering him?<P>What are your thoughts on this, Lori?

Well, my dear Lucks, before I EVEN get started, you do remember you promised me an update not so long ago and I have yet to see it!!! <P>OK, you make a good point. A VERY good point and one that I've given quite a bit of thought to. And you're so tactful and sweet about it!! (That's what I adore about you!!)And, thanks quite a bit to you, I've started voicing my opinion a bit more often these days. OK, so I've always been sort of a "people pleaser" - my mom trained me well so that she could manipulate better, but that's a whole new story. I actually took a step in that direction this week. See I hadn't heard from him in a couple of weeks, not a peep. 'Course, thanks to my ever-faithful MIL, I knew what he was up to, more or less anyway and that all was not shiny in Emerald City. Well, I've been really mopey this week, got a lot of things on my mind besides H - although he's the root cause of many of them, but big decisions to make here, plus problems w/ daughter missing daddy (and showing it as only a teenaged girl can - AAAUUUGGGGHHHH!!) SOOOO, a couple of days after I had written his, "here's what's happening" letter and sent it, fortified by a couple of glasses of very good chardonnay, I wrote another letter. I very calmly and directly addressed our situation, questions and concerns I had, questions and concerns I felt he might have (thanks to reading here for several months now) and told him exactly how I felt about it. Think that might have inspired his impromtu visit today?? To check out if I meant what I said?<P>He is DEFINITELY manipulating. But, in between worrying about money and jobs and teenagers and everything else, I've figured a couple of things out (once again, with help). I think he may be going through the stages just as he should be. Moved out 8/5. In with Sweetie 2 weeks later. Packed his bags for 1st attempt to leave her by 10/6. Hasn't been able to do it yet - she talks him out of it. Went from confused and talking suicide to nervous and giddy to dark and brooding and now angry and in complete despair. All in four months! <P>Now we won't even GO into my moods during this time. Anyway, I HAVE picked up the assault just a little (man, that sounds bad, doesn't it). Meaning, I've gone from little Sweet anything you want dear to making him face little things here and there. Now, granted, it's not always on purpose, but that doesn't matter.<P>I'm ready for the "come home" talk. But I'm not ready for the answer I'd get right now. He's not yet. He will be. But not yet. Now that he's feeling some guilt and disappointment, I think he needs to think about some of that for a while - come to terms with it on his own. He has a lot of input from the peanut gallery (his family) and tends to take them to heart. Right now, I'm just trying to make my actions reinforce what my heart believes. And that's that he's a very good man who took a REALLY bad turn. He's got a lot to work through on his own. MIL says that's why he doesn't contact us - he feels too bad when he has to say goodbye.<P>I just said a lot of nothing, didn't I? Did you follow that at all? What it boils down to is, you're right, I'm gonna, soon I hope. I'm hoping I can tell when the time is right. I guess four months isn't all that long in the grand scheme of things.<P>ES has me thinking. He talked about relationships like crazy today - other people's, of course, just a little about ours. Maybe he WAS reaching out in a weird sort of way - comparing. He seemed really interested in some of the things I had learned here, stories about some of the people. Nothing too detailed. I personally got the feeling he felt alone and stupid and a bit of a failure. I think, after his reaction today, I might occasionally send him a thread or two that might interest him. Help him to understand that 1} he's not the only one in the world to ever screw up and 2}screwing up doesn't mean he's terrible forever and 3}doesn't mean it necessarily has to be over. 'Cause that's how he seems to feel right now.<P>OK, too long-winded again. You always do that to me!!! (No, I will NOT take responsibility on my own!) Strange, isn't it, that I can't get angry? Get fed up? Oh, well, my day will come, I suppose.<P>Personally, Lucks, I don't think he'll ever come back. He's too damned determined to "never look back, lie in the bed you made for yourself". I think even if he realizes I'm the best thing in the world for him, he will never, ever come home again. I know this man, very well. Stubborn pride is his best and worst quality. So, I'm proceeding with our lives as though he's not (hence the tough personal decisions regarding the house, etc.) and just trying to be there in case of a miracle. Pretty silly, isn't it?<P>Well, whaddya think? Have I COMPLETELY lost my mind or what?<P>Lots o' hugs<P>Lori<P>

Lori, NO, you HAVEN'T lost your mind! You are just a woman who wants her family back together and is willing to forgive her man for the terribble hurts he continues to dish out. Keep the faith - it doesn't sound over yet.<P>Wishing the best...<P>Roll Me Away

Lori--<P>Hugs. Nope, you're not too longwinded...yep, you're making a lot of sense...oops, I do indeed owe you an update!! Again, I do promise soon. I've got some things to talk about, with you, cl, and the other friendly responders here, just interesting developments. Things are actually going pretty well right now on this front.<P>I hope your other worries resolve. Teenage daughters can be quite a handful, even in the best of situations! I'm sure you're handling with your usual grace and commitment. <P>One last thought for this reply, in contraction with you. I find your deep-down belief that H will never come home noteworthy...and very sad...but possibly quite realistic on your part. NOW I'm not so worried about you. By the same token, I do agree with Roll Me Away...it does NOT sound over yet. You stated: He's too damned determined to "never look back, lie in the bed you made for yourself". I hope this doesn't come out too rough, I don't mean it that way..but he left YOU, didn't he? That was a "bed he'd made for himself." And he just might do it again, but this time BACK to you.

If this gets a little confusing it because I keep getting interupted with trick or treaters. <P>I don't think you are crazy at all. But don't they make us feel like we are? I understand your feeling that he won't come back. I feel the same way about my H. I have been Afraid that I have burned too many bridges for him to find his way home. But I'm not even sure that given his emotional instability and sense of failure he felt the last time we talked he would have the ability to walk out on her and come home. I don't mean to go on I just wanted to let you know tat there was someone else who felt the same way. But guven the fact you are in communication with him and he seems to be doing a litle (okay itsy bitsy) bit of thinking I think you have a better chance then I. (of couse that may not be saying much considering) But anyway don't give up hope.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Roll - thanks. I needed the encouragement. Sometimes the faith gets veryyyyyy thin.<P>Lucks - thanks again. I guess that means I'm really NOT crazy yet!!! Now, about that update.....<P>SDS - It's sure nice to know I'm not alone!! You're right, you DO start feeling a little nuts after a while. You hang in there, too, OK??<P>Sheba - waiting for the "smudging" update!!<P>Lori

Hi Lostva -<P>Well, since everyone pretty much "sucked my thoughts" right out of my brain...there isn't all that much for me to say about your situation to you!! LOL!!!!<P>You are doing great and as long as this is not really impacting your self-esteem or causing you more pain than you would have if you did nothing and just let go (which I don't think that it is!) then you just keep doing what your heart tells you to do.....<P>I think that it is working and you are right that it is pretty much on the track with this pattern of infidelity!!<P>You're a smart and caring woman who knows her heart and what she wants...that way of being will never fail to guide you in the direction you were meant for.<P>Now, onto "smudging"!!!!!<P>My girfriend calls me up this am and tells me that she wants to smudge me!!!<P>I thought - "well, what are friends for if you can't smudge each other!!"LOL!!<P>But I said...."What the hell are you talking about?" LOL!!<P>Turns out that it's a cleansing of energy .....Sage is burned and the smoke cleanses your aura. They use it to cleanse houses, cars, basically anything I guess.... Was surprised to find out that this is also a scientific fact - the smoke changes negative ions into posiive ones....<P>All I know is - when you first light it - it smells like pot!!!! My friend had to go upstairs and tell the neighbor that we had incense and were not getting high!!! What a trip!! <P>Her friend is into uh....I guess you would call it Celtic rituals. She came over and did the smudging so it would be done right!! My friend probably would have caught me on fire or something! lol<P>We had a blast....I kept yelling at my friend cuz she was hogging all the smoke!!! Told her I needed to get rid of more negetives than she did!!!!<P>Then her friend read our cards for us..what truth came out in mine!!!!<P>I am not a practicer of all this stuff, but I have a very curious mind and love to learn about all these different things...like cards, chrystals, herbs and such!!!!<P>I have learned some tarot reading myself and could read the cards - so I knew what she was saying and the validity of it....the layout was remarkable...the story of me!!!!! Very interesting....<P>Next - we're going to have a group meditation. Apparently people lay around in this room with candles and mood music and let their minds drift...<P>I think that I will be laughing too hard to really let anything drift!!! LOL!!!<P>I meditate alone - but I don't know about this in a group stuff...sounds too distracting!!!<P>Well, I guess that it's something new and different...so what the hey!!!!<P>Besides, if I laugh too much, I guess they'll just kick me out - which would probably be what I would want anyway!!!<P>Hey, you know - I just thought...what a thing to be doing at Halloween...they said that it is the Celtic new year..now I've got new energy!!!! Weeeeeeee!!!<P>What do you think....strange but true stories in the life of Sheba!!! Make a good TV series or what!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hey, Sheba if this works changing negative to positive, then we will need to get to gether and get "smudged" I need all the changing I can get. Sounds like you had lots of fun. Good that may change more negatives o positives the the other. It is always great to laugh with friends. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>