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You don't love the person she is, you love the person you wish she were, but she is not and does not want to become that person.
me, DH
5 children
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JRDuck:
Move to a state in proximity to VA that does not have a fault clause to divorce. Live there just long enough to satisfy the residency requirements to divorce the shrew. Then, file for divorce.
This would allow you to be as close as possible to your child, get around the divorce issue you seem to be facing, and solve the problem. If this is not possible, set up a residence in a nearby state and get your driver's license, voter registration, and pay taxes THERE. Do it. Make things happen for yourself.
You could figure out any number of different possible scenarios to solve this situation, if you wanted to divorce her. The deal is, you have to WANT to divorce her badly enough. My guess is that there is a payoff for you not to divorce.
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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No payoff, except not paying lawyers. There is one other fault clause I can claim: under VA law it is grounds for divorce if one spouse must move for employment purposes and the other refuses to accompany. . .
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No payoff?
I don't know you of course. But isn't being free of a person who brings you nothing but pain a payoff? Isn't finally realizing that some things are not salvable a good thing? What if she decides to go to cancun tomorrow and max out the credit cards? Are you at least financially independent of her in the sense that you are not paying half if she does.
Ad last question.
Don't you want to get on with life? As you have seen on the board, there are lots of women who are dedicated to their husbands and families. Why not look for one? Oh, oops, if you did, she would technically be the OW and you would be one of the men, claiming to be in the process of divorcing your wife.
You can't have your stbxw have you dangling in some kind of waiting loop. Well, that's just my opinion. Someday you may agree with me, or you may not.
God bless,
Happyheart
me, DH
5 children
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Off the cuff response to SB's comments "my guess there is a payoff for you not to divorce." Perhaps I wasn't sure what SB meant by this. Of course, there are multiple benefits to cutting the stbx loose. I will, of course, need to deal with her for at least the next 6 years on co-parenting issues.
I realize right now that I am holding on to a lot of unexpressed anger - I let it out at the gym - but I would just LUV to tell her how I feel when she tries to lay a "guilt trip" on me about "leaving" the family. She has largely had everything handed to her by me and, frankly, the OMs - including one where she was actually trying to persuade him to leave his W - are not on the same par as me in almost every aspect.
WW was arrested last year on Easter Sunday (I was not around) for trespassing and failure to obey a peace officer. The court ordered her to undergo a psychological evaluation. Evaluator said that she "does not seem to comprehend how her actions have the potential to jeopardize her family life" or some such wording. In any case, after the evaluation and 50 hours of community service, the charges against her were dropped. She has so much to lose, but doesn't seem to care. I guess as the song says, you don't know how much you've got 'til its gone.
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Off the cuff response to SB's comments "my guess there is a payoff for you not to divorce." Perhaps I wasn't sure what SB meant by this. Of course, there are multiple benefits to cutting the stbx loose. I will, of course, need to deal with her for at least the next 6 years on co-parenting issues. You don't have to deal with her at all. In fact, a better parenting plan would be parallel parenting, which is to NEVER be in contact with her and passing all PERTINENT information through an intermediary. I suspect that SB is correct, that there must beb some payoff for you not to divorce or you would have been divorced long ago.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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She has largely had everything handed to her by me and, frankly, the OMs - including one where she was actually trying to persuade him to leave his W - are not on the same par as me in almost every aspect. Did you expose her affair to the OM's wife? Have you exposed her affairs to your daughter?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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And we do live in a fault state, so proof of adultery would cost her in terms of any claim to alimony, division of assests, etc., but short of spending money on a PI it is hard to prove. E-mails, etc. may or may not be admissable depending on how they were obtained. Emails are admissable. So is sworn testimony. Does the wife of her OM know all about the affair?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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No, I did not expose the affair to OMs wife. Do not even know her. Regarding telling my daughter, I have not and will not say anything to her. . . and therapist has agreed that it is better for her not to know.
E-mails are admissable provided they were obtained legally.
Regarding payoffs for staying. . . not sure what that would be.
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No, I did not expose the affair to OMs wife. Do not even know her. Regarding telling my daughter, I have not and will not say anything to her. . . and therapist has agreed that it is better for her not to know. JRDuck, Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and he is a strong advocate of telling children the truth. If you don't tell her the truth, you leave her at the mercy of your WW;s lies. Giving her false explanations for the source of the tension in your household just teaches her that dishonesty is acceptable. The therapist is giving you harmful advice. And I would strongly advise that you tell the OM's wife. This is pertinent information about her own life.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Actually, OM#2's wife knows. I discovered the affair after my WW wrote her an e-mail exposing her affair to OM#2 after OM#2 wanted to break-up with WW, and it is in researching this that I shocklingly discovered OM#1. I now wonder, in 14 years, how many others there were?
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Actually, I have read Dr. Harley's advice on exposing the affair, and what he advocates discretion in telling non-adult children about affairs. I imagine that he would counsel, as does my therapist, is that if your intention is to elicit the child's sympathy and to show them what a bad person the cheating spouse it, it is better not to do it. Children should not be their parents' emotional caretakers, and expecting them to be such would be selfish and immature on part of the parent.
One other thing I question here, and perhaps Dr. Harley deals with this elsewhere, is the transparency issue in marriage. I am not sure what is meant by 100% transparency. Would Dr. Harley insist that I reveal to my spouse what I do at work day-to-day if that would violate my security clearance? In the parlance of my work, there is never a 100% "need to know."
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Actually, I have read Dr. Harley's advice on exposing the affair, and what he advocates discretion in telling non-adult children about affairs. I imagine that he would counsel, as does my therapist, is that if your intention is to elicit the child's sympathy and to show them what a bad person the cheating spouse it, it is better not to do it. Children should not be their parents' emotional caretakers, and expecting them to be such would be selfish and immature on part of the parent. Actually, he is adamant that children be told so they will not be confused. He counsels all parents to tell their children the truth about the affair. It is never better to not tell them because that causes moral confusion and teaches them dishonesty. Giving them false explanations about the source of tension in their family teaches them to be dishonest. It also leaves the child vulnerable to the lies of the WS. If you don't tell her the truth, the WS will tell her lies. ne other thing I question here, and perhaps Dr. Harley deals with this elsewhere, is the transparency issue in marriage. I am not sure what is meant by 100% transparency. Would Dr. Harley insist that I reveal to my spouse what I do at work day-to-day if that would violate my security clearance? In the parlance of my work, there is never a 100% "need to know." You shouldn't reveal any thing to your spouse since you are separated.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I imagine that he would counsel, as does my therapist, is that if your intention is to elicit the child's sympathy and to show them what a bad person the cheating spouse it, it is better not to do it. He does no such thing. Most children will be sympathetic to the victim parent. And most children will rightly conclude that their wayward parent is acting very badly. That is the truth. If they can't determine that a cheating parent is a bad parent for cheating then they don't know right from wrong and that reflects poor parenting. Children can deal with the truth, not lies. And if you don't teach them that adultery is wrong, the wayward parent will teach them that adultery is right. That would be a gross dereliction of duty on your part to allow that to happen. It is the parent's responsibility to teach kids right from wrong, after all. Dr. Harley on telling the children: The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults. Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery. The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight. 2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse). My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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JRDuck,
Children should not be their parents' emotional caretakers, and expecting them to be such would be selfish and immature on part of the parent.
What I have found in my experience, which might not be applicable, is that children know that something is going on, have seen something they know is not right and internalize their fears.
It's delicate to ask but your children may have seen some of the affair, in my wifes case she saw her father kissing other women and having other women on his lap which she NEVER forgot.
Given your Ws recklessness I think it is likely your children already know.
God Bless
Gamma
Last edited by Gamma; 09/20/11 08:21 AM.
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Actually, I have read Dr. Harley's advice on exposing the affair, and what he advocates discretion in telling non-adult children about affairs. I imagine that he would counsel, as does my therapist, is that if your intention is to elicit the child's sympathy and to show them what a bad person the cheating spouse it, it is better not to do it. JrDuck, I've heard Dr. Harley discuss exposure to children dozens of times, and I've never heard him say anything even remotely like your therapist. Can you give me a source that you are reading so I can go check it out? Children should not be their parents' emotional caretakers, and expecting them to be such would be selfish and immature on part of the parent. Of course! But nobody is saying that. One other thing I question here, and perhaps Dr. Harley deals with this elsewhere, is the transparency issue in marriage. I am not sure what is meant by 100% transparency. Would Dr. Harley insist that I reveal to my spouse what I do at work day-to-day if that would violate my security clearance? In the parlance of my work, there is never a 100% "need to know." I've heard Dr. Harley say he would advocate that married spies reveal everything to their spouse, or else pick a different career.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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You shouldn't reveal any thing to your spouse since you are separated. True. That does make a difference.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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When my 9yo daughter said "my brother and i fight and that makes you and mom fight" That is when i knew not telling them was what was not right.....they will think they are the cause...trust me....The people here are right on the Mark
Me: BH 40
WW 39
S13, D9
Married 15 yrs together 19!!!
D Day July 11,2011
WW in P.A. with OW
WW wants D
Almost done
Former Tryingtofeelgood
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jrduck,
The "payoff" for you....many forms come to mind:
-you may be unwilling to release any financial assets
Some people remain married for life, only because they are unwilling to let go of any part of their financial assets, period. This is simply a choice, I am not judging the choice. If you are aware of the choice, then I would not make it in the dark, and then attempt to make the spouse "blameworthy" for the inability to divorce, however. The fact in this case would simply be that financial decision.
-you may find yourself unwilling to divorce due to the child custody issue
There may be a situation that you find yourself facing where you fear a loss of access to the child, or perhaps unspoken (on this forum) that complicates the custody issue. Remaining married keeps this custody issue at bay for you.
-drama
Some people are "married to the drama". For lack of a better way of saying this, living with the turmoil may be a way of life. There are people who do not really know how their life would play out with a major change such as a divorce, and they fear the actual process of a divorce; perhaps they can live with the situation as it is but do not know if they could live without a spouse or face a future uncertainty so they keep the status quo because "it works"; others are the types who literally do thrive in an odd way on drama. These last types may not know how to handle facing a relationship that would be "normal" or "calm", and so they hold onto the tumultuous one because, basically, it works for them.
-future possibilities
There may be something in the future that could be worth waiting for. Perhaps there is a sale of land or a home; an inheritance; a child graduating; a move to another location. This sometimes can delay divorce, or put people into a frame of mind that "if only" we can make it to that point in time, things will get better.
So when I speak of "payoff", I am speaking of perhaps 1,000 different reasons for a person to remain married while they complain that they do not wish to do so. Especially when people are in such a situation for well over five years or perhaps ten years - and the situation does not change; in fact, even in this situation they continue to grow their families, having children with the offending spouse, and yet still facing the drama and ongoing difficulties they seem to believe are not reconcilable.
The examples I give are just a few. They may or may not apply to you. But that is what I am talking about when I say there must be a payoff for you to remain married.
Given what you talk about when you discuss your WW, your feelings toward the marriage, your desire for divorce, it would be helpful for YOU to figure out what your payoff is to remain married.
Something is keeping you from relinquishing that payoff. Whatever it is, you have to decide if it might be worth sacrificing in turn for the payoff of a divorce from this woman, and the freedom to move forward and have a life without her in it as your wife. Since you two are able to co-parent, and it would appear you two would be able to share custody...then there is a different issue here.
Figure out what that is.
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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