It is she who should be asking what she needs to change in order for you guys to have anything to do with her!


Awesome! Tell him to bring it! Get the whole sordid story exposed in court. That'll probably be better than renting a billboard or taking out an ad in the paper!

Call his bluff. Shoot, I might contribute to your attorney's fees, if any, if you'll send me a link to any resulting headlines.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice. I don't even know if I have to say "I'm not a lawyer" or not.

I can read the first amendment, and I think you can say whatever you want. Especially if it's true. I remember my American history: "Truth is an absolute defense against libels."

Thanks guys ... have I ever told you MB members how glad I am that you are here?

I didnt think they had much of a leg to stand on .. but it was a worry that it was even mentioned at all. Maybe I could counter sue (if it comes up) for the inappropriate behaviour of involving my child in adult business that was not appropriate for her and caused us MUCH grief and pain during the affair process that grandma dragged our daughter through and the turmoil the surfaced as a result.

Heh, I think a countersuit would be a brilliant way to bring even more unwelcome attention onto their affair and cause trouble for it!

Anyone can sue pretty much anyone for anything. Whether such case can survive summary disposition (and thus get really expensive to the point you'd consider a nuisance settlement) is another matter.

Truth is a defense to libel

however, be sure to always use the word "AFFAIR" when exposing someone and not the words "adulterer" or "adultery" since adultery is more specifically defined as extramarital sexual relations and the word "affair" could mean just about anything. It's much easier to prove "the truth" if you said "affair" but absent video evidence or other proof they actually had sexual relations proving they are adulterers is a different story. The judge can't weigh the circumstantial evidence and decide the facts support the inference that "adultery" occurred so he can't dismiss the case. A question of fact for the jury remains and their claim likely can survive summary disposition and actually proceed to trial. Doesn't mean they win. Juries and judges abhor waywards and the notion that they would sue someone and try to profit from their own misbehavior just doesn't go over well. They will NEVER win in an actual courtroom.

That being said...waywards threaten lawsuits often but rarely ever sue. They want this swept under the rug and MORE exposure in an open courtroom is not what they want. You'll have the right to depose each of them FOR HOURS...delving further into their lives then they ever wanted anybody. You can bet that this behavior isn't the first immoral thing OM has done which will all be discoverable.

Thus...don't sweat it.

Good luck...it's been interesting reading all your posts back to 2007 when you first arrived (just on your thread). I was 30 when I got married and 38 when I arrived here...so you and your wife have a decade head start on me and a decade headstart on enjoying the fruits of an MB marriage.

Godspeed,
Mr. W

Thanks ... its been quite the adventure but its all coming together now. I hope we do not have any further issues with grandma and her AP. If we do .. I believe it would be a mistake on HER part to try anything. We have our I's dotted and your T's crossed.

If it was not for MB tools (i know i didnt do much for posting and asking for help and just worked through MB myself for the most part, and doing alot of back sliding in between). Things are TONs ... and HEAP loads better than I could have ever imagined (other than this grandma thing). Looking back on my old posts and remembering those hard times and comparing them to now .. its like night and day difference in my wifes attitude .. and my own. ITs been very enlightening and as difficult as it has been sometimes when i thought I would never get through to my wife in regards to the MB material... i left it for god .. and he changed my wifes heart. If not for MB, I would not know where I would be today .. nor do i believe i would be married still. I am soo glad neither my wife nor I succumbed to a PA even though we both dabbled in EA without realizing it.

Marriage Builders is God sent THROUGH Dr. Harley. I just wish I could convince more of my family to see it for what it is .. many do not think they need help even though i can clearly see they do .. but when the cookie crumbles on them I am sure they will finally get it.

Seems sometimes that it takes drastic situations to get people to realize whats in their best interest.

Once My wife and I finally read every relevant book for us .. we will most likely get the "how to help others" book. (cant remember the name of it). We are currently reading "buyers, renters and freeloaders and it has really opened our eyes and added another "MB filter" to look through.

I am soooooooo looking forward to the rest of my life with my wife and will remain a MB until I die. I will also be teaching my kids MB as it fits in their lives... my DD13 already told me that when she gets a BoyFriend that he has to comply with MB from day one lol ... or hes out the door. hahahahaha.

MNG

p.s. sorry for rambling .. lol ..

GAh ... going to see grandpa for the first time since all this drama with grandma and grandpa began. He didnt do anything we told him to do ... but told us AFTER that he should have listened to us from the beginning ... not sure what to say to him now.

Maybe told ya so? He couldnt even get past step 1.

*sigh* ... heading home to face the music.

I told you so is a DJ

I would say "I love you, Grandpa. I'm sorry this has happened." And then support him in any way possible.

Well .. Grandpa came over Wednesday night ... after i got home from work. We spent the evening having conversation about his falling/fallen apart marriage. Rehashing all the crap. It was very draining... Grandpa ended up staying til 2am talking his face off about all the could haves .. would haves. He has also been defending MB to others .. and his church can now see the light in regards to my wife and I exposing. Had it not been for us .. and doing a wack of hte foot work for him he may be in alot worse shape than he is now. Hes doing ok ... he tried to keep his tears back and not whine too much ... he went off again on how he should have listened to us from the beginning instead of taking his pastors advice .. etc ..

I didnt come back on after wednesday becasue wife and I needed some UA to make some LB deposits. We were both pretty snarly the next day due to the LB withdrawls from the affair conversation and staying up til 2am repeating ourselves a bunch of times. Once we had repeated ourselves a wack of times i read outloud some of the book "buyers, Renters, and freeloaders" I read the section about haters,dislikers, likers and lovers .. and then read out the section on Electric Fence personality... after reading those his face was lit up as if he had an epiphany of sorts and realized that his wife has an EFP. His demeaner changed and he felt better after all his venting and my outloud book reading.

He is very greatful ... but man it is still draining. We pray for some sort of answer for him ... one minute he wants nothing to do with her .. and the next he wants to reconcile. We told him if he wants her still he will have to go to a DARK plan B .. but he doesnt hink its possible .. so i printed off the plan B material her .. and the carrot and stick thread for him to go over ... but he is SUCH a slow reader ... and he keeps contacting her and it sets him back each time .. I tried to explain this to him .. but he says he can not go totally dark plan B and has all sorts of excuses for it .. i just shrugged and sighed ... not listening again ... O well .. I need to step back and let him drive now. We have done all we can and even though he admits we have been right each step of the way he still fights our advice to some bit. Gah ...

edited to add he even said we have done more for him than his counsellor has and been spot on in everything. He thinks we should be marriage counsellors since we study it so much and know so much on how to fix it. >.<

More to add ....

I JUST found out i am going to be an UNCLE! OMG! I am excited and worried at the same time. I am excited becasue I have never been an Uncle before but worried becasue my brother (who is mentioned earlier in my thread) is the dad. I want to be supportive .. however .. my bro and his GF are NOT married and living together.

Any advice would be great .. I want to get them on board with MB but I dont want to seem pushy about it, they are aware of MB but a bit reluctant to take it on as they do not particularily like self help stuff.

edit to add .. that I also got a Xmas card from grandma and her AP. Nothing in it .. other than to .. from .. and some words in the card that came pre written and her new address where they moved in together. Makes me wana PUKE! My DD13 said .. lets not open it and send it back! ... but we opened it. My DD13 then said .. ok lets put a NASTY letter in it and send her a card back. We will prolly not do a thing. But what a slap in the face it was.

OK I really need some advice. I just got word from my wife that a package is at the grey hound station for us From grandma to our kids. I am torn. Do we accept it? Its from both Grandma and her AP as a gift from both. The kids would want them ... however its tainted with her affair.

Would you keep it? Or send it back? or donate it? Burn it? I go with my wife today after work to pick it up and we decide what to do with it then. OBVIOUSLY grandma is trying to buy her way back into our lives.

Grrrrrr

That is a toughie, NiceGuy! We have a couple relatives that sometimes send gifts and checks or whatever that we really do not want to hear from. For years I threw away checks my wayward mother sent me.

I think this could go either way. I lean towards quietly discarding or donating the gifts, especially because it's not just a gift from grandma, it's from her affair partner. (I am assuming that they actually labeled it as such, from what you've written.) But I don't think it would be the end of the world if you didn't discard it.

How does your wife feel about it? Don't forget to put her first in the decision.

I'd send it back with a note that says, "At Christmas time, we celebrate Jesus' birth. He came to save us from our sins. Adultery is a sin.'

Thanks for the responses guys. It turns out that the parcel came from grandpas brother who happens to be grandmas tenant. THe parcel was labeled to my kids .. and with grandpas brothers name on it, it had us a bit confused as to what to do. So we accepted it at first ... took it to the car and opened it. To our disappointment (we suspected as such) grandmas gifts to our children were inside! SO my wife promptly brought the package back in and had it sent back to them... she sent it collect. (they have to pay the transportation fee of it coming back if they want it back.

Unfortunately we did not get a chance to add a note to it. My wife will be writing grandma up an email explaining that since all the gifts were from her and her AP we can not accept them .. and get this .. "with love from".... we almost threw up. We also told DD13 about it and she was also in agreeance to send it back. Now DD13 wants to send grandma a letter telling her how she feels about grandmas behaviour. I am thinking we will let her.

Thanks for the support!

edit to add ... granpas brother is on grandmas side and thinks that grandma is justified in her adultery. *sigh* .. some people just dont get it.

Well .. posting another update.

After thinking about it for a bit my wife decided to write grandma an email and explain to her calmly that and briefly that while she is in an active affair we will not be allowing her access to her grandchildren and her AP will never be accepted into our home or life. But when my wife sent it ... (she didnt check right away) the next day the message was sent back! Either Grandma has her email blocking us .. or she has decided to not have or use that email again. Anyhow .. So my wife sends the message to her AP! And he blew his LID at us! (in an email) which he then told us how they are closer to god than ever soul mates .. blah blah blah and how we are using our kids against them and how horrible that must be for our kids etc.. and that he has enough love in his family and with his church they dont need ours (what kind of church loves or allows that?) .. AND he went off on how much settlement money grandma and grandpa are splitting .. etc ... AND! told us how he is NOT going to give grandma the message and that she can figure it out for herself when she gets the package back with the parcels in it that were for our children "with love" from the two of them. The letter also claimed that since grandma left grandpa .. that grandpa is now acting like a pedifile and chasing 17 YO teenages from church .. and they have informed ther parents .. and told us they are going to call the ministry on US for allowing grandpa to be in our lives (So .. I printed the message and gave the copy to grandpa so he can see the allogations that is being laid agasint him and us).

I personally think its a bluff .. especially since grandmas AP claimed he is not going to show her our message ... or his. Interesting ...

On top of this .. We invited Grandpa out for christmas eve and to be with us for the christmas morning. Well christmas eve my wife and I experienced something horrible .. we went shopping at our local "superstore" and it was PACKED! My wife was ahead of me and grabbing things off the shelves and bringing it back to the buggy ... she then got ahead of me and into another isle before me .. and as I turned the corner .. there was a crowd of people around someone who had fallen and appeared to have hit their head on the floor and was bleeding .. ALOT. there blood was like 12" in every direction from the back of their head. And people were still going down the isle to get groceries .. and the manager had not blocked the isle. MY wife ahd walked RIGHT up to the people .. not realizing what all the fuss was about. It was HORRIBLE! someone had called 911 .. and the paramedics were on the way. However .. we got the the checkout about 5mins or so after the scene and the paramedics arrived .. very casually. We waited in the line up to check out for about 15mins or so and the paramedics still had not left .. and when we got outside a 2nd ambulance arrived without a siren on .. just lights flashing.

*sigh* We were in complete shock ... the scene was NOT managed very well people were still going into and out of hte isle to get their grocries!.. and my wife and I ended up in a bit of an argument over petty details prolly due to the shock of the situation. Then we went back home and grandpa (didnt care to much about what we just witnessed since he needed to talk about the affair) had arrived and for the rest of the night we talked about grandmas affair ... we ended up sitting up til 2:30am drinking a 26oz bottle of sambuka .. rehashing... and getting frusterated over what grandpa SHOULD be doing (he gave up on the MB material we gave him but is singing praises to everyone about us) The horriblething now is that grandpa has admitted to us he used to talk bad about us all the time prior to us sticking up for his marriage... that hurt a bit ..

*takes a deep breath*

On the bright side though .. my kids prollly had the best christmas ever .. and my wife was an AMAZING cook who made christmas day dinner for about 18ppl and it was blessed and delicious! WE went for a christmas dinner on boxing day to my stepsisters boy friends parents and it was disgusting! ..

So there ya have it .. That about sums up my holidays. Christmas eve was VERY VERY shocking and stressful .. but the sambuka drowned it out a bit.

MNG

Well .. today is not such a good day .. infact I am feeling very depressed. SF is going down the drain it seems when it comes to quality ... things have been going very well every other way except for SF and it seems to have taken a back burner. The problem is not frequency .. but the lack of desire displayed during. I find myself feeling empty and even more depressed afterwards because as much as i want it .. my wife is willing and seems enthusiastic but doesnt want me to pleasure her.. just wants to meet my need to relief my frusterations and then move on with the evening. I would almost rather not have SF when its like this.

I am just curious how I could bring this up to her in a respectful way so it doesnt create tension. In the past whenever i brought this up it usually leads to putting my wife on the defensive and her telling me I am putting too much pressure on her which makes a massive love bank withdrawl to complain about sex.

O well .. who knows ... maybe this is still part of the christmas blues we have and our lack of time together since the beginning of december. I know .. i have been around here for quite some time and should know what to do .. But I am triggered in such a way that I feel that bringing this up will cause a fight or an emotional withdrawl from her and even less sex and its making me feel "gun shy" so to speak.(i know .. thats probably a DJ).

So i guess im wondering how to relay this info without putting her on the defensive and making it worse. I am happy with the frequency .. but its the lack of emotional connection I have thats depressing me and I dont want to sound ungreatful to her for her efforts (shes trying) or create more unnecessary conflict.

Possibly i just answered my own questions as i typed this out. We need more time to connect ... gah I am full of anxiety thinking about this.

We are going out tomorrow night to a club for dancing and a few drinks, hopefully that will get the ball rolling.

Sorry If i sound like I am blogging or rambling .. but it helps to type it out. To be totally honest I am actually embarrassed to be asking such questions with my knowledge of MB.

*sigh*

MNG

How long are you guys together, talking and meeting other intimate emotional needs, before SF?

And how much time are you guys getting together each week?

We get about an hour after the kids go to bed at 9pm (some nights is later becasue our kids are in martial arts .. on gets home at 9pm so she doesnt get in bed til 9:30pm. This time after 9pm includes making lunches together for the next day and chatting about our days and tidying up the house a bit together. In bed by 10pm we chat a bit more .. cuddle ... I give her some shoulder rubs .. (her shoulders are always sore) and rub her feet ... and she passes out. This is almost daily. Sometimes we will watch a show together in bed on a laptop ... if we run out of conversation. ANd of course cuddle and give affection during that time.

SO i could say we get like 10 hours a week of NO kids time as of late .. but it was better though before christmas .. probably getting around 15 - 20 hours a week. But the weekday routines are pretty much the same .. just we would spend alot more time together on the weekends and let our oldest feed our youngest while we cuddle and caught up on our UA time.

So I am pretty sure its lack of UA time. I just cant bring myself to express it though. I feel like a switch has been flipped in me ..

Some things though I should mention is that My wife started a new job ... this is her 2nd week. And we are still shaken up about the holidays. Maybe its just a phase ... I dont know .. i just know its depressing and making me want to withdraw and find something independant to do. I feel like i am running out of steam which i guess is probably my taker in me saying I have had enough.

*shrugs*

That'll do it. Every time.

Don't be embarrassed! There are a lot of reasons why somebody might have massive MB knowledge and still face troubles.

Don't forget that Dr. Harley is always an email and a phone call away.