I think Mr and MrsV need time to sort this out - in private.

ITA, Sugar.

I think Mr and MrsV need time to sort this out - in private. - SC

ITA, Sugar. - MB

And as much as I'd appreciate being a mouse listening to that discussion, I have to cast my vote with you two ladies.

I'll third this. or fourth it.

Anyone still amazed at how weird things tend to get around adultery?

BS Fog? Some BS get lost after D-Day a lot worse than the WS ever was.

Took me five years after the second D-Day of the VLTA to figure out what I want and what I no longer want. What I will do and what I will no longer do.

I hope this is all sorted out for you MRs. V

CV

I hope it's sorted out for her BH. He needs to move on.

Hindsight is 20-20.

Being a BS is scary, agonizing, confusing and downright humiliating. It makes one cycle between resignation, resentment and anger for a long, long time. I�m talking years, not months of resignation, resentment and anger. Resignation, resentment and anger I kept inside, BTW, because of the following advice I received on this very MB Recovery Forum�

So, if I only knew then even part of what I know now -


I did not have this conversation; I had not brought the VLTA up in ay way, not even tangentially, for years. But these would have been my honest answers to these questions up to five years after D-Day 2 of the VLTA:

Listen Buster, do you love me? I don�t know. I may not love you any more. I don�t know. I don�t know.

Do you want me to love you? I don�t know. Your adultery tells me you don�t love me. Your adultery proves to me beyond the shadow of a doubt you neither love nor respect me enough to not lie, cheat, steal, keep promises and have repeated long term sex with another man. In fact, it is obvious you loved OM much, much more than you loved me. And if it was a fantasy, as so many people seem to believe adultery is, then you love fantasy itself more than you have loved me.

Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? I don�t know. Who are you? How long to I have to decide? Note: IMO BS should have two years or as long as the adultery lasted, whichever is longer, to decide. Which in my case is ten years. Though I only took five years.

If the answers to any of those questions is yes you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!" This is hypocrisy in the extreme coming from a lying cheating adulteress. How can you even think this let alone demand anything whatsoever of me?

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all." To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love." I cannot digest this at all. It makes no sense whatsoever coming from an adulterer. More hypocrisy. Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with our sexual relationship. I seem to be physically unable to have sex. I do not seem to work any more, due to the visuals of you and OM even this far out.

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. I agree with this advice. I never mention the VLTA. Haven�t for years. For my sake. Makes me feel bad. I�ve learned I need to care about my feelings too.

Aphelion, I have to tell you I don't have much sympathy for any BS who lingers on for years in a sick, unrecovered marriage. If you are resentful for years on end that is because you are in an unrecovered marriage. That is all on you. Your choice. Those of us that used the program are not living lives of quiet desperation. We have great marriages and happy lives.

After awhile you are no longer a victim, but a volunteer. And regardless, it does not entitle any BS to perpetually punish a repentant WS. A repentant wayward spouse should be forgiven, not punished for years. If you can't get over it, then get out.

Hypocrisy? I don't think so. Hypocrisy is expecting a certain standard of behavior from others that you don't practice yourself. A FORMER wayward is obviously no longer practicing abusive behavior so it can't be said he is a hypocrite.

I do know that couples that get on board and use these concepts to recover their marriages, do not feel resentment, they feel a romantic love that crowds out the bad feelings. And if your spouse didn't get on board with that then you are the problem, not them.

By the way, I have been in TWO marriages that experienced adultery. I have massive resentment about one and none at all in the other. The difference is that I went through the MB steps for recovery in the latter and never recovered in the former.

I don't think about my XH very much,[the one I resent] but when I do, I am triggered with massive resentment and hatred. This is why I avoid him as much as possible. I rarely, if ever, think about him. I cannot even imagine having to live with that resentment every day, though. I would not live like that. But that is what happens in unrecovered marriages, the BS is triggered EVERY DAY and lives a life of resentment. By CHOICE.

Ah, Mel�I still find you interesting�lucky you�

You jumped over the intended message and addressed something that no longer bothers me whatsoever.

We�ve had this discussion before. I blame my communication skills comma lack of.

For the record I did not disparage MB methods. I stated where I was at five years. May be of use to V�s BH. Perhaps of use to V for that matter.

BTW, hypocrisy applies to ignoring one�s own past behaviors too.

eta: I agree with your take on resentment. A negative for all involved. But I don�t agree it�s always a choice.

Actually, what he is doing is dishonest. If he is committing to working on the relationship, then they need to talk to each other about things. If what is happening is what appears to be happening, he's doing it all wrong.

CV

Resentment is ALWAYS a choice. As is choosing to love and forgive and even be happy. What we feel is often based on choices we have made or make. They are the results of good decisions or bad ones. If we feel we made a bad choice or fail to comprehend the truth of something then we feel resentful towards it or about it.

CV

No, I still do not agree. Even Dr H says resentment is not always a choice. Here�s a more complete version of the Dr H quote used in this thread:

�Those who have written me understand how damaging their feeling of resentment is to their happiness and to the future of their marriage. But they seem unable to stop it. It's a great subject for a psychologist, who is supposed to know how to help people control their emotions. But, I must admit, this is a tough one.

I have answers to some parts of the problem, but not all of them. So to help you as much as I can, I will lay the problem out to you and give my advice wherever I can.

The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment.

But emotional associations fade over time as long as there are no further associations with new painful events. In both cases, their husbands have not had an affair after the revelation, and so I would predict that if they have a normal recovery, where they learn to meet each other's needs, avoid Love Busters and learn to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty to their decisions, the resentment would fade away.

If, on the other hand, either husband were to have another affair, the association would be much harder to extinguish. In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

But there is more to resent than just the number of affairs a husband had in the past. In many cases, an affair is discovered while it's going on, and the unfaithful spouse makes matters worse by choosing to be with the lover and abandoning the spouse and children. That thoughtless act is a huge source of additional resentment for the victimized spouse. He or she not only goes through the pain of discovering the affair, but must also go through the pain of being rejected. The unfaithful spouse often moves away to be with the lover, leaving the spouse all alone to face the terror of abandonment.

Then, if all of that weren't enough, the unfaithful spouse explains that he or she needs time to "sort out" feelings, whatever that means. It actually means that the unfaithful spouse will go to the highest bidder. Whoever makes the unfaithful spouse feel the best, the lover or the spouse, will win the prize of the unfaithful spouse. So he or she spends some time with the lover, and then spends some time with the spouse. Back and forth, trying to "get in touch" with feelings. Can you fathom the resentment that would follow such a horrifying and humiliating experience?

But there's more. After vacillating back and forth a few times, the lover gets sick of it all and tosses the spouse out for good. With nowhere else to go, the unfaithful spouse comes back home. It wasn't his or her choice. It was the lover's choice. How would you feel being chosen because you were the only one left. Resentment doesn't begin to describe the feeling.

Finally, there's all the lies. Your spouse looks right into your eyes and lies to you about everything. Faced with undeniable evidence, he or she grudgingly and defensively admits to one lie after another, rarely accompanied by apologies. How can there ever be trust again?

B.A. and S.K. went through only a small number of the possible painful experiences that lead to resentment. Over time, their resentment will fade, and a passionate desire to make love to their husbands will grow. Both husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs. I predict that within a year from now, both of these wives will have almost completely recovered from their feelings of resentment.

But if they had gone through the other experiences I had mentioned -- abandonment, vacillation between spouse and lover, returning after being rejected by the lover, and the many lies -- I would not be as optimistic about them overcoming their resentment quickly. It would take much more patience on the part of the unfaithful husbands. But even with all of this past pain and suffering, they too, could have a marriage that would be relatively free of resentment.

Some people are better at remembering than others.

I read recently that estrogen replacement significantly improves memory in women. Great! That's all I need. A wife that can do an even better job remembering everything I've ever done to offend her.

It's true that the better your memory, the more difficult it will be to overcome resentment. That's because resentment is tied to memories, and if you forget the painful event, the resentment is lost along with it. One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

:

Another topic that I will briefly mention is obsessive thinking. Some people feel that if they stop thinking about something terrible, it will happen to them. While it's not all that common, it effects certain people known to be obsessive, where regardless of the low probability of risk, they treat some thoughts as if they were an ever-present danger. Those who compulsively wash their hands for fear of being infected by germs are an example of this type of person. The solution to their problem often lies in medication that helps them overcome obsessive thoughts and compulsive behavior. There are some very effective medical remedies that a doctor trained in obsessive thinking can prescribe that often help a person rid themselves of pervasive resentment regarding an affair.

Admittedly, I have not covered resentment regarding an affair completely. But it's a start. If your problem with resentment is not covered in this column, e-mail me issues that you are still struggling with, and I will try to help you with them.

Resentment seems insurmountable when an affair is first discovered, and as it unfolds, with its attending lies and thoughtless acts, it's amazing that anyone can actually overcome resentment. But it's a fact that people usually do, especially when the core problems leading to infidelity are resolved. It's a good illustration of how our instincts lead us astray when trying to resolve our marital problems. Most of us cannot imagine overcoming resentment after a spouse's affair, but those who have gone through it know that it's not only possible, but it's likely that resentment will fade away. �

Notice the use of the words frequently, often, probably, almost always, usually � As stated by Dr H, some people do indeed have too much to resent to get over it. Choice is not a major factor.

Now, before Mel jumps all over me again, I have very little resentment. My fading memory is doing its thing. I am to the point where I am rarely triggered. I don�t actually care any more. But this isn�t about me. It�s supposed to be about V�s stuck BH. For whatever reason stuck H.

Has anyone ever suggested he call Dr H and discuss his resentment, if that is even what it is?

And always, there's Dr. Harley's explanation that most marriages that experience infidelity NEVER recover. Most get divorced, permanently separate, or live in an unhappy marriage. He's talked a lot in his radio show and in several books about the kinds of couples who discover MarriageBuilders.

The couples in which both partners are enthusiastic about repairing their marriage after an affair usually just do so. They figure out a way, and both of them try very hard to prevent a recurrence. These types don't tend to need counseling or dive too deep into marriage "theory". They find a few techniques that work and run with them.

The couples in which both partners are NOT enthusiastic about repairing the marriage don't tend to get counseling or worry about marriage theory. They just divorce and move on.

The ones that end up here are typically those where one partner is enthusiastic about recovery, but the other is not. That dynamic also affects recoveries.

If it were me, after five years and responses like the ones above -- bringing up the affair again -- I'd write a letter. In that letter, I'd explain what I need from the marriage. I would need for my spouse to never bring up the affair again. I would need a commitment to a marital recovery program together. I would need a commitment to spend at least fifteen hours a week meeting one another's most important emotional needs.

My spouse's response would inform my next move.
* Sit down with me and discuss it thoughtfully, forming a plan for the future together? There's hope. I'd stick around.
* Crumple up the note or tell me why it's offensive? I'd prepare for a separation, knowing there's a good chance my spouse would never wake up to the hurt they are continuing to perpetrate daily long after my offense is long gone.
* Refuse to acknowledge the note or ignore it? Same thing, I'd prepare for a separation, but with some hope that perhaps the separation would "wake up" my spouse.

But maybe that's just me. After five years, I think it's not about the affair anymore. That's just a stick to beat the former wayward spouse with. It's about building a great relationship together, and if one spouse won't do that after five years, it's about time to hang up the cleats and either move on or else go through a few maneuvers in hopes they'll get the idea that you're not willing to settle for a craptastic relationship anymore.

That is not the definition of hypocrisy:


hypocrite
[hip-uh-krit]  

noun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially [b]a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. [/b]

For example, I stole erasers from the drug store when I was 6. My belief THEN was that stealing is ok. It is not my belief today. Therefore, I am not a hypocrite if I tell my child not to steal. If a wayward has repented they are perfectly free to judge others for bad behavior.


I agree. Sometimes it is more than we can overcome. Even Dr Harley alludes to this in several places. If I had a choice to not resent my XH, I wouldn't do it. I am not a grudgeholder by nature and see no point in it. However, when I am around him my feelings of resentment come flooding back. That is my LAST memory of him.

On the other hand, I have absolutely no resentment for my current H. When I am around him I have nothing but good feelings.

I used to believe this, really. I am not a grudge holder by nature. I really abhor resentments and consider them to be a waste of energy. I have a DEEP abiding resentment against my XH. It has nothing to do with any choice I made, but from the cruel and unusual punishment he inflicted on me.

The way I deal with this is to avoid him. I don't speak to him and have only seen the worm 2x in 12 years. As long as I stay away from him I don't think about him.

Even Dr Harley says that sometimes "The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy :

1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially: the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

2: an act or instance of hypocrisy


The emphasis is not mine.

Perhaps our difference in usage is rooted in the second clause of the first instance.

An adulterer, former of otherwise, who acts like they never did it or expects others to take their advice about adultery without revealing their adulterous history, or acts like they never committed adultery when requiring certain reciprocal actions fits the definition, IMO.

And is a liar by omission, too.

Maybe this does not apply to a former adulterer around their own spouse since they supposedly know all. (But of course they never know all).

Advice on how to treat a former adulterer when coming from same adulterer has got to be suspect by anyone. I agree with an analogy you yourself have used several times before this. I would not likely take financial advice from a former embezzler. Especially not one who embezzled from me.

I still think V�s BH needs counsel about his stuckidness. There is more to this than meets the posts.

I�m heading for the barn.

Again, it comes back to "feigning what does not believe or practice themselves." A REPENTANT wayward [key word being REPENTANT] does not believe or practice those sins. Jesus says REMOVE THE PLANK FROM YOUR EYE first. And that is what a person does when they repent.

So, no, it is not hypocrisy if one does not still believe or practice that sin in their own lives.


Now see, I WOULD take financial advice from a FORMER embezzler if he had repented and had a proven track record of successful financial managment.

What I have said over and over again, is I would not take marriage advice from someone in a bad marriage themselves. That is because that has been a historic pattern with so called "vets" and "old timers" on this forum.

Aphelion, it is nice to see you around again.