So....I end up hiring a PI but was not able to afford very much time. They did not end up finding anything out.

I used a VAR on several occasions. On one occasion I hear her saying "I need a boyfriend." On another occasion, on the day before my daughter's birthday, my wife is not home and disappears for several hours. On the VAR, I hear her say "We've never even been on a date.... OMG! Moan!" Car Door opens, garage door closes. As she is walking away I hear "Are you ready to...." I can tell from the length of the VAR recording that she is about 5-10 minutes from our house. I ask her where she is and she says I don't know, I was at the grocery store or somewhere. She went to the grocery store the day before. She then shuts down and refuses to talk.

Later that week, she goes to the grocery store and then a local restaurant, supposedly by herself. She spends like $16 at the restaurant, however. I call the restaurant and describe her, and they tell me she was with some Hispanic guy. I don't ask her about, not wanting to hear some excuse or explanation.

I later confront her about the VAR and she states that she was talking to herself. I confront her on the morning of our anniversary, just as she is about to leave the house without telling me where she is going. She leaves and comes back with a pre-ordered cake and throws it on our car. She states that I am trying to turn things around on her so I feel less guilty. She calls me paranoid. She doesnt, however, have a good explanation and is clearly nervous and anxious. She states that she was talking to our daughter, even though she admits that she wasn't home. She starts tearing up and says "you're the one that cheated, not me...." She then hits me several times and kicks me while I'm sitting on the bed. I feel like I've been set up, but I question whether I'm correct, since there is only her voice on the recording.

Previously, I planted a voice activated miniDV recorder in the backseat of the car (which is registered to me). I recorded a sample video at the store just to make sure it worked. She goes to work and calls me on her break from her car. When she gets home, I check the recorder. There are several videos missing that have apparently been wiped, because on reformatting the SD card cannot find those videos. The video I make at the video store is also gone, wiped clean. So it appears that she or someone else has a wiping utility? There is video, however, of her on the phone with me. The videos just before and after tha recording are missing, however. I did not mention this to her.

On another occasion, in April, I go out of town for business for 3 days. On return, she has somehow accidentally recorded several videos on her cell phone. Although you cannot see or hear anything clearly, you can see some form of rhythmic movement and/or in the background, and there is

I later complain to her friend and sisters about what I've found. I feel that it's pretty good evidence but not smoking gun. They tell me that she had told them that she knew I had a recorder in the car, and therefore made up some stuff so I'd be paranoid. Of course, she had no idea that the recorder was there, and got nervouse and made up some other story when confronted. I asked her about this - why are you complaining and threatening to move out, when you are purposefully doing things to make me paranoid? She said she is pregnant and confused. (She is pregnant with our 4th).

So now she says everything was going so well, and we were getting along swimmingly, until I became paranoid and ruined her life by accusing her of something that I did, just so I would feel better. She is threatening to move out, says I make her miserable, and that she wants a divorce. She says she wont sleep with me, wont sleep in the same bed as me, wont kiss me, wont hug me, doesnt want physical contact, doesnt love me, hates me, doesn't want to go to marriage counseling, only slept with me for reproductive purposes, sleeps on the couch with our newborn to avoid me, and keeps her own bank account. She says she is saving up for her own apartment, but still sends me texts asking where is your payroll deposit, you didn't get paid today, you better complain to your boss (I got a paper check...)

What else? She goes to the Dr for a UTI infection and tells me that the dr. asked whether she was having sex with more than one person. She gets pregnant again while she has birth control pills right next to the bed, and then claims that I got her pregnant on purpose. She refuses to bring work schedules home, and tells me her major big box retailer company doesnt give out schedules anymore. She leaves for work early and comes home late. I go visit her at work, and she walks 10 steps ahead of me and the kids, and then a coworker says "another long lunch, huh" while smiling and winking. She now knows new sex acts in bedroom, knows how to give oral sex, etc. She goes to gym, but there is no record of her going on gym website record of visits.

As background, I had an affair in 2008-2009. My wife found out in 3/2010 after OW's husband emailed me and she found in my email. OW calls HR, calls cops, and tries to get restraining order against husband. OW tries to get me to get restraining order against her husband, but I decline. Wife calls OW's husband and they begin talking. I try extremely hard to make up with wife and stay together. I pledge NC and stop talking to woman. We go to MC for several months, but my wife stops. I quit my job and find new job. At time I find out, several people, including my wife and coworkers begin to intimate basically that "what is good for goose, is good for gander." I begin to see search enginge results of my email associated with porn. My wife goes to Vegas and is coy about what happens. She returns and I begin to find a local realtor's pens in her car. I check his blog and there are "coincidental" references to things that are going on in my life. My wife admits that some other male platonic friend was visiting her every day at work in her car on breaks to discuss our relationship. She asks me if I hate her, because she thinks I have a recorder in the car and might have heard something. Later, although I block the phone number of the OW's husband, I begin to find numerous coincindental similarities between his twitter postings and my wife's comments or interests. I also begin to hear clicks on the phone and my cell phone lights up at weird times. It suddenly seems like spy v. spy. I begin to think my wife is still married to me only to embarass me and humiliate me. I begin to think my wife is just married to me so she can do whatever she wants and just use me as paycheck and extra child care. I begin to think that she is involved with OW's husband, or others, either for punishment/revenge and/or affair.

But of course I could just be paranoid and projecting, right? And after all, aren't I a hypocrite. Sex is just fun and games, as she once said, and she should get to partake if I did, and I shouldn't complain? And if I want to try to repair my family, well I'm the one that ruined the marriage, and it's my issues, right? And if I try to catch her and ask her to knock it off, well I'm paranoid.

best case scenario, I think she is working herself up to an A.

CV

Two words:

Paternity test.

Wake up. You're not paranoid. Get a DNA test on you kid. ***EDIT***.

This is a reminder that posts should be courteous. Please offer Marriage Builders help or refrain from posting.

Hello Abe,

You seem to have been investing quite some energy into snooping. Until now, the evidence is rather thin, although I am rather paranoid myself, it didn't convince me. Of course this does not mean nothing is going on, but it is premature to start accusing your wife of having an affair.

You had an affair, and have been in contact with this woman, who was also married, at least until 2010.

What have you done to make this up to your wife?
Have you met her emotional needs?
Do you know what her needs are?
How did things go after she found out about your affair?
How come you are complaining that she is only married to you to humiliate you?

Something is wrong. The two of you are not getting along. The best thing you can do is to fill out the emotional needs questionaire here
http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=pop8
and to stop lovebusting (love busters here: http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=pop7).

After you have done that for a couple of weeks you should be doing a bit better, and maybe she will come around.

Of course you can continue to snoop. If your wife knows of the var, it is not going to be very effective. Be a bit more discreet, and stop asking her where she was all the time. It annoys her and if she has something to hide, she will be more careful.

Good luck,

Happyheart

@CV: if you're right, what should I do now? I'm mentally exhausted from dealing with her anger and my own paranoia. My house feels like a tomb and an explosive firetrap. I don't want to leave her while she is pregnant or with an infant. I am supporting her, our 3 kids, plus her mom and nephew (who she moved in 2009) in a 1400 sq ft house. But the house is underwater, my salary can't afford 2 households. She refuses to go to MC and refuses to go to individual therapy (even though she says she has postpartum depression). She stopped wearing her wedding ring and put a password on her phone. She asked for a divorce/separation after I confronted her after using the VAR, but she hasn't done anything to move out or get a divorce. It's my responsibility to get the divorce she says.

@schoolbus/ouch: the DNA test was OK for last kid, and the other 2, will get one for new kid once born. I am walking a line between paranoid and trying to trust. Whenever I don't trust, I find nothing and it angers her. She constantly says "you're the one that cheated, not me." However, she still says things like "do unto others as they do unto you," "you would cry too if it happened to you" (singing), or in front of the kids "your dad know what karma is like, don't you?" She has previously admitted to revenge, but says she wouldn't stoop to my level. So does that mean she is merely purposefully trying to make me think she is cheating to make me paranoid or crazy? Just make it seem that way? Is that her revenge? Or is it a case of "just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm wrong" and she is trying to make me feel paranoid, make me feel guilty for feeling that way, but also doing those things and saying "catch me if you can." Or am I just projecting, creating a narrative? I don't know anymore. It's too complicated, and although it provides drama, I'm exhausted. Not sure what got moderated, but if you think it's useful, let me know.

Happyheart: You're right that it was premature to confront, but I was exhausted and I felt like I was getting no closer to the truth, even after a year and a half.

For a long while, I tried to be empathetic and loving and meet her emotional needs (trying to be a better listener, be transparent, validate her, tell her that I love her and not going to leave/abandon her, regular date nights, Hawaii, SF and Vegas vacations, expensive and not-so gifts). At the same, she was so angry and provoking me that I became paranoid and resentful that she might be doing the same thing, which was counterproductive to feeling empathy. I would like to think I know what her needs are, but at the same time she tells me I don't understand her because I am paranoid from her anger and provocations. After she found out, she packed my bags and threw me out and was extremely angry for several bags.

I said I feel like she is married to me only to humiliate me because she denigrates me constantly and I feel that she is cheating behind my back with the knowledge or tacit approval of her (our) friends and family. I have no great evidence of this, but just intuition (which could be just paranoia). In past relationships, intuition has served correct, however.

If your wife is remaining married to you only for the purpose of being cruel, you are married to a very broken and sad person.

If she is cheating on you, she is rubbing your face in it, and challenging you daily to try to catch her. She believes you can't, and that if you do, she has some kind of entitlement and upper hand in the deal anyway.

FWIW, I would tend to believe she is a mixture of both. If she is not in an active physical affair, she is likely working on it. She has obvious resentment and anger issues that she is showing to you in no uncertain terms.

You can use MB concepts to fight both. It doesn't really matter what the problem is. Use the concepts if you want to save the marriage.


The paternity issue makes me wonder - why would you have every kid tested? If you are the one who is the cheater, then why are you questioning paternity of all of the children? Is there more to this story?


SB

I agree, she is probably incredibly broken and sad, filled with hate and remorse. She tells me (weekly, if not daily) that she wishes she never married me, accuses me of marrying her only for kids, and tells me that I deserve to go to hell.

I think whether I want to save the marriage depends to some extent on what I find out and how bad it is. I mean, I hope for a best case "pronoia" scenario, she is mirroring my bad behavior but not really engaging in anything. Part of it may be competitive even - "I'm going to catch you, no matter how long it takes" or "I'm going to find out the truth before I let go." It should probably be enough that she asks me to leave her, asks for a divorce/separation, and so many other things designed to push me out. She hasn't wanted to be touched or kissed since I confronted her, and hasn't wanted to kiss on the lips since she found out about me. There was no intimacy, it felt purely like a physical act. In fact, she'd say "thanks for the pleasure" and once she got pregnant, in anger she said "I was only with you for reproductive purposes." She has also told me that there is no chance of reconciling and that we can't get along.

I recently also got paternity tests on the first child, because she was conceived right before a break up (my wife called me up to tell me several months later). We moved in together and later married a year after the first child was born. I cared about her and felt like it was the right thin to do, and felt like we could grow to love one another. I always had a question in my head, though. Then after my affair broke, she and her friends would prod me and ask "whose kids are they anyway?" She also worked several towns away and never was willing to change jobs, and seemed almost to have another life out there.

So given our less than ideal history, her expressed wishes, and the real possibility that she is out of control, I keep wondering why I'm so stubborn and why I want to try to make things work. I guess I do care about her, feel guilty for what I did, and worry about the future for us and the kids. But she is so angry and out of control, and not willing to meet me 1/2 way, I'm not sure how even my very best could be good enough now. If it were a cliche, it would be drops in a holy bucket.

***edit***

enlightening.


You may find that your wife is not as blameworthy as you believe

and you may also find the coolest way to handle her, while at the same time making her believe it was all her idea

and

she falls back in love with you
and you with her.


Marriage Builders works with these same concepts; this adds another dimension to the whole deal - kind of explains WHY you are where you are with things.


and you figure out how to stop it.


SB

Alright, it's been ordered, if it is self-deception, and I'm looking for patterns in the matrix, I hope I have the sense to realize it.

SB's book recommend is great. In the meantime snoop. snoop. snoop. If you have to take a day off work and follow her in a friend's car, do it.

CV

I will check out SB's book recommend. I don't want to be in denial and shifting blame. Sure, I'm plenty blameworthy. And I don't want to accuse if my wife is not also blameworthy. But I also don't want to be played the fool, at least not more than necessary.

For instance, I found the OW's ex's blog, and its covered with little coincidental or snide remarks that seem to indicate that there is some connection between him and my wife, some delegated revenge/punishment, or some attempts to instill paranoia. For instance, he'll say he's been somewhere and the same day she'll call me and say she wants to go to that same place. He writes "you down with OPP, now?" Plenty of other continuous examples, but all indirect and ambiguous, nothing overt. Without smoking gun, and with her denials, I'm not sure if he's "fronting," I'm paranoid, or something else.

I asked her if she's still in contact and she denies, stating only for a short time after she found out, and no home or cell records, but easy enough to call from work or have prepaid throwaway, or meet at work. She also only recently mentioned that she had initially told him "I want to have an affair too," but according to her he said "that's not a good idea." I suggested that with all the drama we be in a reality show, and she said "what would OW and OWH be in it too?" She also told me that OWH told her that she should get checked for STDs and told her that he was clean. He also lied and told her that I had bought the OW thousands of dollars worth of presents. Then, on the night my wife found out, I went home (she had thrown out all my clothes) she made me call the OW on speaker to check certain facts. Then, within minutes of hanging up, the OWH was calling my wife saying "make your husband stop calling my wife." I spoke with him and said "I'm not talking to your wife, so stop contacting my family" to which he said "OK." But either he was monitoring my phone, his wife's phone, both phones, or his wife told someone and they immediately told him.

So, as he mentions in his blog, he, she, or others could be playing some cold game. He could either be playing the part of Iago, continuing to subtly undermine, and thereby try to prove his worth, and/or actively involved with her. I don't know how else to explain the large amount of coincidences, plus the ability to monitor. Either way, my wife seems to be playing a role, even if it just some form of delegated revenge. This would explain many of her passive/aggressive and provocative comments.

I also believe that I am being monitored both on the web and on the telephone and being recorded. I hear clicks and echoes on the cell and home phone, and the cell lights up for no reason. This may be part of the reason that the "catch me if you can" game she has been playing has been so successful. There has also been some stuff going on with search engine results involving my name and former email handles.

The other thing that is strange is that before the affair was over, the OW was still trying to contact me, as if to set me up. At the office XMAS party, she repeatedly tried to be seen with me. Then later, people at work dropped hints that she was sleeping with someone else. When everything broke, I thought she was throwing me under the bus to save herself and her then relationship. When her husband contacted our work, she immediately had HR call the police and wanted to get a restraining order and wanted me to get one also, but I declined. I later learned my wife was planning to show up at the restraining order hearing.

So call me paranoid, but as I said to the OW once "just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm wrong." The fact is that my wife feels like she knows me pretty well, is able to play on my insecurities and weaknesses, and she and the OW likely shared with him. In fact, my wife told me "you just don't want to get divorced because I know all of your bad points and secrets." It felt like subtle blackmail.

So I'll definitely read the books (and look forward), but if I'm right, I need to know how to combat all of this stuff and win my wife back, or just walk away. It's either self-deception/truman show, or some pretty f'd up stuff. Anwyay, I need a course of action, I don't want to be in limbo forever. The problem is that she's now pregnant, and I'm already supporting my own 3 kids (one is only 8 months old), her, her mom and her nephew. Plus she shows me no love/affection. So, other than feeling less guilty, ans saving child support, what am I getting other than grief and unrequited love. As she says, am I just stubborn, judgmental, and a hypocrite? I don't know, it could all just be a test, or I'm just a drama queen and like to complain for the amusement of all. But if its all a joke to punish the wrongdoer, if I'm reformed and remorseful, can't someone let me in on the joke and I can then share a laugh? I mean, I'm sorry and you've tricked me, great, now let's move on? Because my kids and wife are suffering, even if my wife is giving me hell at the same time. But I'm not going to jump, or go crazy (any more crazy), slit my wrists, or anything else.

Regardless of how many twists and turns this has, the answer is simple.

Plan A. Then Plan B.

Because you cheated first, I recommend a Plan A even if you don't particularly want to save your M at this time. Plan A is what you need for you, as part of your healing process.

You will be a better man for it if you take some time to be the husband you should have been all along. And if you do have to walk away from WW at some point, you will know that despite your own transgressions you did all you could.

This is way down the road yet, but if you reach the point where both of you are considering R, the relatives will need to leave. R is hard enough; don't make it harder by adding the extra stress of people outside the immediate family circle.

Your life sounds like a spy novel.

If there are really that many people involved in a conspiracy, it will crash and burn. That many people cannot keep a secret for long.

SB

Thanks, understood and agreed. However...has anyone ever heard of revenge strategy by BW of audio/video/phone recording a person and then posting on web and sending links to friends/family, without knowledge of person? The OW's husband My wife continues to make a point of having long winded discussions on phone going over things ad nauseum, and seemingly trying to make admissions about things while on the phone and trying to get me to make derogatory comments about others. Even my friends have made strange allusions to things. Granted this sounds paranoid, but.... In fact, in early 2010, right before she found out...I had friends asking me if I needed to stay on their sofa, if I wanted a job 1/2 way across the country, and coming up to me at work shaking their head and giving me an unsolicited hug as if in commiseration.

Sounds to me like you need to take your computer in for a check for key logger, have your house swept for bugs/cameras.

Then, put a few on of your own.

SB

Treat this like an affair. Begin Plan A, and continue snooping as you can't expose unless there's something to expose. (Profound, I know.)

Worst case scenario, your BW is now a WW. In which case Plan A was the right choice.

Next worse case scenario, BW is still a BW, and is doing odd things to further some unknown goal. Whatever that may be, she is very detached. In which case Plan A was also the right answer.

OK, Plan A. I've been doing Plan A since June 2010. She's had 1 child, and now another on the way. I'll continue Plan A, but I'm getting a vasectomy, dammit. I suck at snooping, couldnt afford pi, so I got exhausted and thought I had enough evidence to confront, but I guess not. She was real nervous, but as soon as she realized I didn't have all the goods, she turned it around and started to punish and verbally abuse, making me out to be paranoid.

Going along with the paranoid/projection/self-deception theory, she continues to say stop acting like your the victim and turning it around when I'm the one that you hurt. I also saw refeences to learned helplessness ideas, etc on friends, etc. At the same time, she was coming home from work with pens from hotels, with the seats moved back, with wipes from some other vehicle? So she may be involved in an A, but alot seemed designed to force me to make a choice that she assumes I would have made but for the children, and stop acting like a victim, etc.