Dear me.


It seems like every other post from newbie BSs on this forum seems to contain the phrase 'My WS says....'

This is ok (ish), except when followed by the fatal 'I do believe him/her'

The worst ones then follow up with a desire to 'trust'.

I therefore submit a golden rule.......

NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.

Now everyone of us has been there, been gaslighted, been lied to very convincingly by people who we love and know to have honest and upstanding pasts. (oh yes, it's not just yours!)

That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.

A truly repentent wayward will jump through hoops to prove themselves with actions like an NC letter or a polygraph.

Words are just too inadequate and they know that.

Here is my top ten of things waywards lie about

1) It was an EA only
It was a PA, but if I tell you the truth that will have to stop and you will probably leave me.
2)It was a PA, but we only did it once/oral/kissing
I minimimize what I am ashamed of, though there is no logic in doing so.
3)It is your fault for not meeting my ENs
This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex
4)Our marriage has been miserable for years
This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex
5)I do not love you - I love the OP
I have betrayed my morals and everything I once believed in. I must love the OP - or else I am just stupid for risking so much. Actually I am just greedy and stupid. Dont tell anyone.
6)I want a divorce
But I will not bother filing. This is an idle threat to scare you into submission.
7) She/he is just a friend
That I value more than your discomfort with their presence.
8) I need privacy, that's all
So I can cheat on you
9) I dont need an NC letter because there is no contact
Please dont make me give up my cake
10)You are jealous/controlling/demanding
You are getting really warm and I dont like it.

Can I please invite others to share lies they were told/told themselves that were really convincing and why they should NOT be believed without proof?

Cheers.

lol so true

here is one.

WW is in shambles, crying depressed you name it, saying all the right things " I'm so sorry, I love you, how could I do this, let's go to counseling, please don't leave, I need to end it w/ OM"

15 hours later.........

She filed D.

It truly is an addiction.

indie, I am consistently impressed by you. You're doing such a good job! Thank you for this post.

after learning about it and realizing exactly how far she would go this one still sticks out in my mind.

i need a girls night out (so of course im not invited) but of course OM just happened to be there

I heard I hate myself for what I have done, really, and you keep on living how you are living...

I also was told:

We are like room mates: I said do room mates sleep together?

I want to see what it is like to date outside the office? (another good one)

I was also told I just want to go to a real college football game; people from work will be there ( only OW)

All good stuff!!

Amen indiegirl! The "word" of a wayward is about as relevant as the rantings of a falling down drunk.

I get really frustrated when BS' post fogbabble on this forum because it is a distraction and an impediment from saving the marriage. I don't give a RIP what a WS says. It is meaningless!

I am also proud of you indie.
Your posts to others show that intellectually you 'get it'
though I have to say when it comes to our own situations, we tend to be babes in the wood cause we are a bit vulnerable being human beings. We just are.

Great post!

Found this on another site, something I have found helpful in understanding WH's behaviour is not about me, it is ALL about him... Helps with seeing the wayward's behaviour for what it is.

Replace addicts with waywards, after all, they are one and the same.
1. Addicts lie
2. Addicts make excuses for their bad behaviour
3. Addicts are NOT in control of themselves
4. Addicts want one thing - more more, and again more
5. Addicts are master manipulators - of spouses, children, even their parents
5. Addicts don't care about long term
6. Addicts don't care about logic
7. Addicts are not reliable
8. Addicts lie
9. Addicts talk ONLY for three things :
a. to pursue their addiction
b. to pursue their addiction
c. to pursue their addiction
10. Addicts lie
11. Addicts create walls to isolate themselves from anyone that may interfere with pusuit of their addiction
a. Emotional walls - I'm done, I'm divorcing you, I don't love you
b. Walls of Lies, stories, excuses
c. Walls of wood and brick - they shut doors, stay away from home, dissappear for hours on end
12. Addicts lie
13 Addicts use people
14. Addicts don't care if they hurt people
15. Addicts are ill
16. Addicts aren't loyal or dependable
17. Did I mention that addicts lie?
18. Addicts recover

I question number 18 though... in my experience addicts do not always recover, or can take a very long time to do so... I would add "can" to this... Addicts CAN recover.

Oh, and a beauty I heard was that WH just needs time and space, he is certainly NOT looking to rush into another relationship. Two weeks later he is dating and there "is a spark" with OW.

Time and space mean "butt out so I can continue an affair without YOU, that pesky BS, interfering".

beautifully stated!

Part of it, though, it that you *want* to believe them. How could the person you love so darned much lie to you? There's that brain barrier (BS fog) that won't really let the truth in.

I was lied to so much, gaslighted so much, that I actually started believing his fantasy.

My fog is gone gone gone... and his? Thicker than ever LOL He lies so much, I have new "cocked eyebrow" wrinkles.

And FYI... just to show how very bad they are when it comes to lying; I sat in front of my WH, with a receipt from a grocery store, showing foods we don't eat, in a grocery store in the city OW lives in and showing the last 4 digits of HIS debit card. He STILL denied it was him.

When I provided a receipt showing a time and date for a shoe store with a purchase for mens shoes (which he showed me), in OW's city, for a time he was supposed to be far, far away, he denied it. "The store has the wrong date, I bought those just now!"

This one's a kicker... I provided him with a list of non-negotiable requests (MB style). He left the house to go think about everything. OW texted him, oh she was soooooo hungry, could he order them a pizza? Yep, he did, and what did he write her order and address on? Yep, the list of requests. Oh, but that isn't his hand writing (yes it was), he didn't write that (yes he did)! Someone must have used it for scrap (yeah, the ghost in his truck).

How do we who are fighting the past and have elected to stay with our cheating spouse overcome such character flaws? Somehow I see a disconnect between swallowing all that she did up until dday and how Im supposed to live afterwards.

The lists above paint one ugly picture of a human being supposed to be my partner, supposed to have and to hold me, supposed to be there in the best and worst of times. And, man, if she WAS half the monster these descriptions illuminate, the question is at what point are you what you once were? And just because thru sheer stupidity she got caught, is she not any of those things? And because she's become a wonderful wife since dday doing things I wish she did years ago, are all those things above now moot?

Maybe this should be on my "Recovery" thread.

Mike i can tell you from experience as a wh that the person i became is not the person i am. Affairs really flip flop you into a very disingenuous person. Everything that you once were gone, some of us wake up and see what has happened and what is going on. For me it took a bus to hit me(figuratively)......We see the path of distruction and the hurt and we long to take up the cross and carry it. Should all just be forgiven, maybe every sich is different, only lots of time will tell. Should alll be forgotten, never , but you need to put those thought and visions of what happened in there place, the lock box so to speak. Not to never be thought about ever again, but to protect your marriage from the extreme rage and extreme emotion, that they can ravoc on the good times. Which they really can. MB principles will protect you from triggers which are the key to the lock box. Try to lose the key and you will win the game. Yes i know its not a game just an analogy.
I am not a perfect person not now nor ever, I will always strive to be a great person, husband, and father! Some days are easier than others!
Hope this helps.
Nothing is moot if you dwell on it every day.

And please dont misunderstand me, I am by no means saying "Just get over it" I despise those words

Oh back to the Thread

I want a physical and emotional separation, but I want you to live in the house....

I need to explore my feelings>>>>>

You make a better roomate than a husband, The day after she said the first one

I need some duct tape to wrap my head so it doesnt explode

I've seen so many lies posted (here and other forums) that BS's have believed of their WS's that I want to make one of those rubber bracelets for BS's that say, "Don't Believe!" (OK, there's got to be something more clever than that but my brain is wracked from studying all night!)

Oh - I was guilty too when my H first was wayward. I believed it was all my fault. I believed him when I challenged him that he must be up to something and he said it was my wanting to blame someone else for MY failures - my driving him away. I believed him when he said it would be better for all of us, esp. the kids, if we could be civil and get along and have an amicable divorce. Thank goodness I didn't believe too long!!!

The thing BS's need to see is that if they don't consciously fight these lies in their own heads they will succumb to belief. Succumbing to belief means acting on it - which is usually very detrimental to the cause.

Basically, every lie a WS tells says one thing: "Go away! Leave me alone so I can do what I want with whom I want!" They will say ANYTHING to get you to do so.

The sad part is, this is the person that knows you best in the world, and knows what buttons to push.

The question for vets and those of us who have recovered is, how do we get BS's to a point where they don't fall for this garbage more quickly? Often newly BS's believe their lying, cheating spouse but don't believe us when we tell them not to believe!

sunny din you are right on the mark

How do we who are fighting the past and have elected to stay with our cheating spouse overcome such character flaws? Somehow I see a disconnect between swallowing all that she did up until dday and how Im supposed to live afterwards.

Mike,

I think this thought EVERY DAY...and I wish I could stop.

Thanks for your post, guy.

I have a hard time with this too at times. I can separate it out knowing that my husband is not that man now - the liar that he was during his affair. The man he is currently (as well as prior A) would never say or do those things. It's just like having PTSD, however, in the fact that you always have it in your mind that your spouse was capable of that. Yet, unless he or she has consistently shown bad character through the duration of your marriage, you have to reconcile it in your own mind, knowing the way he or she behaved was because of the addiction of the affair. It's basically no different than if you were married to a drug addict.

Sometimes that kind of statement makes people think you are excusing the behavior, saying it was "the drugs". It isn't. It can be confusing because we talk about accountability and tough love and then turn around and say it's an addiction. Well...all are viable. Your spouse got involved with the AP because he/she chose badly - chose to let boundaries slip away - chose to turn to an easy, feel-good fix rather than doing the right things to solve issues. Along the way there are opportunities to turn back from those bad choices. When WS's keep choosing poorly, it is definitely on them! Then, once hooked and those hormone chemicals kick in, the high becomes more important than their morals or character. They begin to lie to themselves and ultimately to the BS to maintain it. Once that high is broken and the affair is busted, you have a chance at regaining your once moral spouse.

Most of us are capable of going against our morals and good character when we can justify it to ourselves. That's why the recovery plan is SO important! Ditching the affair and deciding to recommit to the marriage is one thing. Truly turning the ship around is another. I don't want to sleep with one eye open, but I know my husband has shown that he has a weakness in allowing himself to succumb to things he should not have. So, you take steps to ensure there's no reason to look elsewhere. Further, you eliminate problem areas that allowed the opportunities to succumb in the first place.

This is where openness and honesty are so important: the reason we believe the lies the WS tells is because we are so used to believing lies in the first place. Most of us lived in a state of deceit even if we didn't realize it, pre-bomb. Our lives were nothing but trying to avoid saying how we really felt for fear of conflict. We hid our true selves and so did our spouses. There's usually been so much "justifiable lying" in our relationships that it really isn't a big step for a WS to rationalize the lies of the affair. When you are in recovery and you learn to be honest about all things, you shut down the world of deceit and it makes regaining trust much easier.

I think, Mike, that it comes down to trying to regain respect back for your spouse - at least it does for me. I forgave fairly easily and trust has come along in progression over the past year. The respect takes a bit longer.

[quote=SunnyDinTXSometimes that kind of statement makes people think you are excusing the behavior, saying it was "the drugs". It isn't. It can be confusing because we talk about accountability and tough love and then turn around and say it's an addiction. Well...all are viable. Your spouse got involved with the AP because he/she chose badly - chose to let boundaries slip away - chose to turn to an easy, feel-good fix rather than doing the right things to solve issues. Along the way there are opportunities to turn back from those bad choices. When WS's keep choosing poorly, it is definitely on them! Then, once hooked and those hormone chemicals kick in, the high becomes more important than their morals or character. They begin to lie to themselves and ultimately to the BS to maintain it. Once that high is broken and the affair is busted, you have a chance at regaining your once moral spouse.

Most of us are capable of going against our morals and good character when we can justify it to ourselves. That's why the recovery plan is SO important! Ditching the affair and deciding to recommit to the marriage is one thing. Truly turning the ship around is another. I don't want to sleep with one eye open, but I know my husband has shown that he has a weakness in allowing himself to succumb to things he should not have. So, you take steps to ensure there's no reason to look elsewhere. Further, you eliminate problem areas that allowed the opportunities to succumb in the first place.

First hand experience: I was a fragmented person, from time to time could see through the fog, but no will or not enough will to get through it. I look back and truly get depressed, even after 3.5 years, how could i be so lost.
please dont think i am trying to give myself and out or excuse, but it was really tough breaking the high.


Our lives were nothing but trying to avoid saying how we really felt for fear of conflict. We hid our true selves and so did our spouses. There's usually been so much "justifiable lying" in our relationships that it really isn't a big step for a WS to rationalize the lies of the affair. When you are in recovery and you learn to be honest about all things, you shut down the world of deceit and it makes regaining trust much easier.

I really think this is true of a ton of marriages....We are trying not to rock the boat or to keep the boat from rocking..We are not working on being happy in our marriage. Most people sacrifice to the extreme and that hurts the marriage. [/quote]

very insightful

A great thread. Thank you.

How do you know when the lieing stops ? How do you know when to start making that move to recovery ?

Once a liar always a liar, how do you know the truth from the lies ?