I'm new to the MB forum, but I have read alot about MB in the last week or so and have been reading and posting on some other forums for about a month. I wanted to ask for some feedback here since there is a dedicated area here for Infidelity that results in a pregnancy/child. I am hopeful I can get some helpful responses.

I am trying to figure out the answer to some very difficult questions that really all boil down to the same thing. "How do I determine if reconciliation is even possible for us?". Does anyone have any suggestions, or experience that they can speak from on this?

I'm having a terrible time deciding what to do. I honestly don't know if I will ever get over this. I believe I understand how/why this happened. I believe that she was not trying to be malicious or hateful in any of the things she has done. I don't wish her any pain or suffering, despite mine. I don't want her to be punished for her mistakes. But I just dont know if we can ever get over them either.

We've spent over 20 years together. I wish I had know about some of these MB books and concepts back early on in our marriage, but I didn't. And so we had plenty of problems in our marriage, but I thought we were doing ok. There was one serious problem. A back injury started her on prescription drugs a while back. That began a progression of prescription drug abuse, and eventually alcohol abuse, as well. I have spent the last 5 years so focused on her drug and alcohol addiction that I honestly had no clue at all, what else was going on. I thought all of the stuff that I was seeing was related to these two addictions... The lying and stealing and sneaking, etc. I had no idea there were other reasons. When the twins were born, I was still oblivious even though they didnt bare any real resemblance to me. Then she had another serious relapse with alcohol on 8/9/11. Shortly afterwards I found out about the Affair. Shortly after that I realized that she was probably lying about a lot of things related to the affair (when it started, if/when it ended, frequencey, use of protection, etc). I realized that the twins may not be mine. Then I realized she may have gotten an STD from him and even given it to me. I continued to push for answers and validation of the information she gave me. I found out alot of things in a short period of time. As soon as I could, I ordered tests for paternity and STDs. In the past month I have received bad news, followed by worse news, followed by even worse news and so on. I've hit so many new lows and each time I thought it couldn't get any worse. I'm not going to go into all of the problems and all of the nuances of the betrayal, except to say I feel like I have been betrayed FAR more than the average BS/LS. I am not trying to minimize anyone elses situation. I am not trying to say that what they have experienced is not absolutely devistating. Nor am I saying that there are not others out there who have been betrayed much worse than I have. I am simply stating that I believe on average, our marriage (probably like many others in this specific subforum) will be much more difficult to repair than many others.

I am reminded of this great betrayal everytime I look at the twins. I dont see how I will ever be able to have a single day for the rest of my life, where I am not smacked in the face, punched in the stomach and kicked in the... well... where guys dont want to be kicked... I am worried that I will have that sickening feeling every day when I interact with them. I am horrified that I may treat them differently than I would if this had not happened and they were actually mine (or at least I was blisfully ignorant of their paternity). But again, I feel so many of the emotions of D-Day when I am taking care of them or looking at them or even just talking about them. So it is bound to affect those interactions with them regardless of what I want.

Also, I am increasingly concerned that she will not be able to handle such a slow and painful recovery, which will lead to a relapse of one of the three problems (drugs, alcohol, infidelity). I believe that when directly faced with the alternatives, she wants to commit to us and make any sacrifice necessary to recover our marriage. But she is a very selfish person. She always has been. It has always bothered a little and I have always complained about it (like that helps her change), but it never bothered me this much before. I am not perfect. I have plenty of flaws of my own and I have tried not to hold her to a standard that I can't meet either. So I have tried to be patient and tolerant on that front. But now I get the feeling, that this "selfishness" is strong enough that it will keep her from being successful at making the sacrifices necessary to restore our marriage. I am fairly certain that over the course of the next few months to one year, she will lose her fight to abstain from one of these three things.

I have told her (and I mean this with everything in me) that I cannot and will not tolerate any more of these. Even if I can manage to pull through this and start working on Recovering our Marriage. If she gets involved with any of these three things again, I will immediately terminate our relationship and marriage and it will likely not be on good terms where we can still be respectful of each other. I really don't want to invest our time, energy, emotions, finances and such, just to end up divorced and where we can't stand to be around each other. If we have to end it, I would much rather it be where we still care about each other and we can still be friends for the sake of our Son (who is biologically mine) and our families and because I do still care about here and want the best life for her (even if that means a life without me).

There are a lot of reasons why I think I should try to work toward reconciliation. And I want to be able to. I am just concerned that the odds of success are too low and the risks if we do fail are too significant to justify trying. So how do I figure out if this is a waste of time or if we have a shot?

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rich_Confused

What a mess. But I believe your approach is correct. You should not tolerate any of those things again. And you are right to tell her that. BUT, there needs to be a PLAN here to turn this around. This is not going to magically fix itself.

What is she doing about her alcoholism? That is the first thing to address.

In order for your marriage to recover, she is going to have to make a RADICAL 180 degree change. She is going to have to get treatment for her alcoholism and make her life so transparent that it would be impossible for her to carry on another affair.

She would have to completely change the environment that led to her affair. For example, if she runs around like an alley cat in heat and goes barhopping, partying and has friends of the opposite sex, that would have to change. You won't be safe until such a lifestyle is eliminated.

The next most important thing, and this is critical to the success of your marriage, is for her to commit to the policy of joint agreement. That means that no decisions are made about your marriage unless you BOTH enthusiastically agree. This is where most addicts have the most trouble. And it is the most critical to the recovery of your marriage. Most alcoholics won't agree to considering their spouse in their decisions, becuase they are committed to selfishness. They have a hard time ever considering others. But if she can learn to consider you in any decisions you might have a chance.

As a recovering alcoholic myself, I can tell you that she is no prize. No alcoholic is. We alcoholics even have an inside saying, "we wouldn't touch another alcoholic with a 10' pole." As you have learned the hard way, they are bad news.

But if she will commit to RADICAL CHANGES, you have a chance. If not, you are facing a death of a thousand cuts and a life of pure hell. You think it is bad now? It ALWAYS gets worse with an alcoholic. It doesn't stay the same, it ALWAYS gets worse. And she will drag everyone around here down into the depths of hell with her.

What is the status of her affair? Does she ever see this guy? Is he married and if so, does his wife know?

Rich, as a former wayward wife with an OC and a lot of dirt in our past, my husband and I do understand a little about the journey you've gone through. A happy marriage is possible, but it is going to take a lot of work on BOTH parts, but mostly on the part of your WW. Shortcuts in the MB program cannot be taken, like her commitment to no contact with the OM for life--ever!

Have you taken measures for monitoring her actions/e-mail/etc? There are good "spying" suggestions on this site. Since your WW is a liar (waywards get too good at it, so keep your radar up), you should look into this. She needs to PROVE her faithfulness to you, if indeed she is being faithful right now.

And listen to the vets like Mel here--they truly know how to help.

RC, welcome to MB. I do hope besides the paternity of your children that the other blows are not life threatening to you or permanent damage to your health.

I tend to agree with Melodylane that first and foremost you must have a plan to deal with her addictions. Then the plan to work on recovery will follow but if she cannot get help and stay sober MB will not work for you.

As for the twins, what is the law in your state? Here in CA the H has two years to contest paternity. If you have two years then I would use that time to decide if you want to stay M'd and if you want to be dad to those babies. You have every right to walk away. You have been betrayed in one of the worst possible ways.

However, if you decide to continue as father to those children, please know that from what I know of other BH's the OC will stop being a trigger once you get over the initial shock of all that you have learned since dday. They will simply be your children some day.

You have a lot to think about and I encourage you to work through what you can here on MB.

God bless.

Also, does the OM know about the twins and their possible paternity? When did the A end?

Thank you both for your responses... I will try to follow up with additional information later today.

Regards,
Rich

MelodyLane,

Thank you very much for your response. Let me try to answer some of your questions.


I believe she is doing what she can for the moment. My sister is also a drug and alcohol addict in recovery. She has been clean for the last 6 years. She lives out of state, but she is acting as my wifes temporary sponsor. They go through several books (like daily meditations and such) each day together. My wife is signed up for IOP, but hasn't been able to start. I believe it is 3 or 4 hours per day, 4 days per week, for 5 weeks. We are having a very difficult time getting coverage for the twins for that length of time. So she is not really able to start that yet or even attend meetings regularly. There are a couple of problems. We have to share one vehicle. I have to work a pretty tough schedule at work. We can't afford day care for the twins. One of them has pretty bad stomache problems and seems to scream most of the evening and night, so I honestly can't handle them on my own at night. I don't know how she does it during the day. But I have tried and I just can't handle it by myself at night, at least not 4 nights a week for 5 weeks. Anyway, we dont have much family near by. Her mom and sister are, but they both work irregular schedules and aren't terribly close by or willing to come here when they are williing to watch one or both (which isn't very often). I'm not trying to make excuses for her. I've told her, this is her recovery and she is responsible for doing what she needs. I will be as supportive as I can, with regard to helping out with the kids and such, but I'm not going to make her work her program. And she is struggling to make that work right now.


She is trying, but she is struggling with it. She understands and is agreeable to me going through her emails, text messages, voicemails, facebook, etc. I find it difficult to stay on top of. Boost Mobile doesn't make it terribly easy to get information remotely and we can't afford to switch to a phone/carrier that would provide better options for transparency. In the meantime, it would be very easy for her to conceal some activity if she wants to. But she does seem to be trying to be completely open with me about all communication. One problem on this front is we are less than 2 months from DDay and she she has already started sneaking and lying again. It was for an innocent activity, but it really made me mad. I told her how dangerous it was and that I wouldn't stand for such behavior. Basically, when she was taking our older son (15) to her mothers house to stay the night, she had mentioned running to Walmart on the way home. I dont have any concerns with her going to Walmart, its just that she tends to lose track of time and plus we couldnt afford for her to spend any money. So I asked her not to, and she agreed that she would not. Well she felt that she needed a break from the kids and that rather than risk my reaction to her asking again, she left the twins with her mom for a bit and went up to Walmart near her house, without telling me. When I called her I didnt get an answer so I called my son. He said she had run up to Walmart for a bit. So I was already bothered by the fact that she went against what we had agreed on without even telling me. I tried to call her a dozen times. She wasn't answering which sent my mind on ALL manner of negative possibilities. Finally she answered, I asked her what she was doing, what was everyone else doing, etc. not letting on that I knew she had gone to Walmart and she lied. As far as I can tell it really was that innocent (as far as just going to Walmart, not doing anything inappropriate, other than sneaking and lying. But the fact that she can still be so selfish and inconsiderate to do something like that makes me worry. It is that kind of behavior and thought processes that will lead her right back into drinking, drugging, or cheating. We had a long talk about it and I think she understands, but I have thought that almost everytime we discuss the problems after she does something like this. Am I being a pushover? Am I trying to be to controlling?


She appears to have changed what needed to be changed. She has never gone out to bars without me. She isn't the party type. Her drinking problems have always been buying a bottle, drinking it and disposing of the bottle, or hiding the bottle in/around our home and sneaking to drink. She doesn't have many friends and none of the opposite sex. I have always told her that it was too risky to have friends of the opposite sex. She never really believed me. The OM she started drawing close to when she was hanging out with some girlfriends. She knew I had a problem with her making friends with guys, even if it was a very innocent friendship, so she hid it from me. They started communicating more and more (phone and text), sharing more personal things, problems she was having with me, etc and drawing closer and closer, until they ended up having an EA followed by a PA. I believe she is starting to understand what I have been trying to tell her all along. Innocent friendships with people of the opposite sex can easily turn into something much more without intention. Despite the fact that this should be clear to her now, I have had to ask her specifically not to friend and message guys on FB as recently as a week or two ago. She was looking for old friends from high school and friends she made when she was in rehab 2 years ago and some of them were guys. She was completely open and honest about it and seemed to be totally oblivious to the risks until I started asking her if she thought that was a good idea and talking about it. It just bothers me that I had to point out that this was inappropriate and risky. Anyway, she now seems to be steering clear of situations where she might even end up talking to guys alone. But I worry that she will again start to feel a need for friendship and start looking to guys to fill that need. I have tried to encourage her before she got pregnant and the twins came along that she should find an activity that she likes where she might make some wholesome girlfriends. The only places she has seemed to make friends in the past couple of years was places like rehab. I've told her, that is a dangerous game. You didnt go to rehab to make friends, you went there to get better. Not everyone in rehab has good intentions and most of them will probably not stay clean. If she wants to make friends with someone from AA who has been clean for some time, that is one thing. If she gets in and meets some women who have been clean for maybe 5 years or more, thats great. But she shouldnt be making friends with people who are just beginning their recovery (if they are taking it seriously at all).


Thank you that is a great point. I have read about the POJA, but I have not read that actual article yet. I will definitely read over that and discuss it with her. The problem I believe we will have is that I believe she will agree to it and be sincere about her agreement with using one. But when it comes to actually creating one, she will likely not stand up for her views or opinions, so she will agree to things that she doesnt "enthusiastically" agree with. And because she can agree to something in her head, but not in her heart, when things are not rosey, she will likely not stick to the terms of the agreement. I guess it depends on the consequences of breaking the agreement. Are there consequences defined in the POJA? I guess I really need to read up on that today if I can.


lol, well, some of the best people I have known were alcoholics who were in recovery. Unfortunately some of the worst people I have known were those same people, except it was when they were in their addiction and not in recovery. It feels like such a gamble and it scares the snot out of me. I am not clear on where the line is between having faith that someone can be successful "This Time" and just being nieve/foolish/etc... But all of the times before I was not at the point that I could provider her an ultimatum or serious consequences. I was stern, but I would not say, if it happens again then you are out. Because I knew I would not be able to stick to actually doing it and then she wouldn't even take what I said after that as real consequences, but just idle threats. Now I am past that point and have made it clear. I have not threatened before and I am not threatening now, I am telling her clearly and emphatically what will happen if she relapses this time.


She is willing to commit to "RADICAL CHANGES" right now. But she has always been one to commit to anything necessary to keep our marriage together immediatly following something like this. The part that I worry about is how well will she be "ABLE" to stick to her commitment when things are not going well. When I'm not meeting her needs for whatever reason, and life is treating her poorly and her family isn't being supportive and... etc, etc, will she be strong enough to stick to her commitments...


It had ended (physically) before I even found out. She says she had been trying to end it for some time. She says that the last time she went and saw him in person was around the April time frame. We moved to a different city (about 2.5 to 3 hours away) in July to be closer to her mom and sister now that we were having the twins. I know she kept in contact at least periodically up nearly DDay and would have talked to him again. She had been trying to figure out how to go see him. He does not have transportation (to my understanding) and cannot come to see her. He is not married. He does have two other children with two other women. I dont know if he was ever married to either of them, but he was single during the affair and still is. Again all of this is just to the best of my knowledge.

Additionally, I have texted him. I would love to have just been able to erase him from our lives and never deal with him. But ultimately he is the biological father of the twins and I needed some information from him about that. Would he want to be part of their lives? If he did, would he have a problem with me being present during all visits? If he is not in their lives (for one reason or another) and they want to contact him when they get older would that be ok? If WW didnt want to be in contact with him ever again, would he respect that? Did he have any STDs? etc. Main thing was, if I can get over this and raise them, I didnt want to ever have to explain to them that the reason they had never met their biological father was because of me. I didnt want to ever have to deal with them feeling like I alienated them from their bio father. I dont want him to be part of their lives, but I didnt want to be the one responsible for that. His responses were basically always something along the lines of "I will do whatever is needed.", "I will be there for them anytime it is needed.", etc, etc. He seems willing to be part of their lives, but doesnt seem to have any compelling desire to be. I am sure not going to force him to be involved. So it's a win, win for me. I would probably never have to deal with him or visitations and I dont have to be the bad guy, if the twins ask why he wasn't involved in their lives. But with time his feelings or situation could change... Anyway, we are still kind of in limbo on this. We had started working on a NC letter, but haven't finished it and I was kind of dragging my feet trying to figure out how to handle some of the details since he is the bio father.

Thank you again...

Regards,
Rich

wanthealing,

Thank you so much for taking the time to share. I am so glad to be able to hear from someone who has been in a very similar situation who can speak to their experience.


I can appreciate that. As I said to MelodyLane, she seems very committed at the moment, I am just not sure how long and how strong that commitment will be, especially when the chips are down... As for the no contact. She again seems committed to that for now. I am going to make it clear to him that if he ever wants to reach out to us about the kids or to the kids directly it must be through me. No matter what is decided, as long as we are together, they should never see or talk to each other. Anything necessary can be handled through me or an intermediary.


Some... Her email account actually goes through a domain I have that I control the hosting on. So I have access to the email from the server. I also have her passwords, and go into her local client from her computer as well as into facebook. I dont have any monitoring/keylogging software installed on it right now. I have seen a couple I like. But I just dont have any free money to purchase one right now. They aren't terribly expensive, but even $30 is more than I can shell out right now. A long time ago, I used some free stuff, but now antivirus is much more thorough and the ones I have used in the past would be problematic with AV. If you know of any free ones that are worthwhile I will check them out... otherwise as soon as I can scrape up a few bucks, I will pick one up. I would also like to get a GPS car tracker, but that will have to wait a bit as well. I have access to, and look at her phone about every other day. I have access to her phone records, but Boost Mobile only shares so much information from their site. It helps validate what I see on her phone, but really there is only so much I can see on her phone. She can delete the record of a single incoming call and then I have no way of ever knowing that someone called, much less who it was. I would love to get a different phone and plan that had more options. Especially since her current phone is a bit of a trigger for me. Every time I hear the new message chime I feel sick. In any case, I am being pretty thorough, but it is exhausting trying to watch everything from every angle all of the time. Hopefully it wont be too long before I can pick up a few things that will make it faster and easier to validate.


Absolutely. I really appreciate the feedback I receive from those with experience and I do my best to apply it.

Thank you again...

Regards,
Rich

faithful follower,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate your feedback.


No, nothing that serious. The only new health problems are she contracted HS 1 and 2 from him. She gave me HS 1 for sure. They said my blood work came up negative for HS 2, but I may have it and it is just not showing up yet. Until and unless I come back positive for it, it has been kind of a dampener. I had never been with a woman before I met my wife. I have never been with a woman since. I never thought I would have to worry about STDs. But now I have one and I have to worry about being very high risk for getting another one. I am now uncomfortable being intimate with her without using protection, which sucks... But it's far from life threatening. I could, obviously have ended up with any of a number of things that would be worse. But that is not much consolation.


I agree that the addictions must be dealt with above our marriage. As I have said, if she relapses our marriage is over. So being a better wife and husband are of little value if we are splitting up due to her failed sobriety. But I have to be honest. And hopefully no one will think I am a horrible person for this. But I am more focused on can I get over this, should I even bother, etc. I want and expect her to put her recovery from addictions above us on her priority list. Likely only second to meeting the twins needs. But that must be her priority and she needs to address it. I have already tried to work her program for her and have tried to push her through her recovery and I failed. I can't do it for her and I just dont feel like trying. Don't get me wrong. I am as supportive as I can be. If she asks me to watch the kids while she works on her 12 steps, reads one of her books, goes to a meeting or talks to her sponsor, I will. But I am not willing to tell her what she needs to do for her recovery nor ask her to follow through with it. She needs to work it and I will support her as best as I am able. If she chooses not to work her program and she relapses, I will have to leave her. That probably sounds very cold, but I am honestly doing the best I can, just to do that.


I have not had the money for an actual consultation. But I have received some answers to some basic questions from some attorneys and my understanding is that here in FL, a child's paternity may not be contested if the child is born into an "intact" marriage. This continues for the life of the marriage. It is only once the couple divorces and the marriage is dissovled that paternity may be contested by any of the three (H, W, OM). To my knowledge there is no limitation on the timeframe that this may occur within. So he cannot be held responsible for any support neither may he excersize any rights, until we were to divorce and contest. It seems a little silly to me. I wouldnt pursue him for support anyway, but the fact is, that if we wanted him to support them and we wanted to stay together, we would have to divorce, challenge paternity, then remarry. In that case, I believe we would still be legally married and he would be the legal parent and be responsible for some support. Eitherway, if I raise them as my own, then I have no desire for him to support them, so it doesnt matter much in my case, but it still seems wrong.


Thank you. That is one of the things I have been looking for. If anyone out there who has been in this situation can confirm whether or not OCs cease to trigger such thoughts or emotions given time, I would really appreciate that. I know for many it never had the chance to become a problem because they didnt find out until after a long time. I honestly feel like if I had found out after maybe a year or two of raising them, that I would have such a strong attachment to them, that paternity wouldn't matter and they may not be a trigger or at least not as severe of one. But I found out less than two months ago, when they were not quite 6 months old and I am struggling with it. I feel like I am having a hard time re-bonding or continuing the bonding we had been doing up until I found out. Right now it sometimes feels more like I am babysitting the children of the enemy.


Yes, I sure do. Thank you, yes I have already found MB to be a wonderful resource and I sure as I continue I will find it even more and more valuable.


Pretty much. She actually continued the affair for a short while after they were born. She took them over to his place a few times (all unbeknownst to me of course). Apparently the boy looks like him. She had told him several times after they were born that she believed they were his. He knows I was having the testing done. I don't think we have ever said yet, "The dna tests results are back and you must be the father because I am not." But when we send the NC letter I plan to make sure that, and the STDs are spelled out for him.

I'm told that the affair ended (physically) in mid/late April time frame, when the twins were about two months old. We moved about 2.5 to 3 hours away at the end of June/beginning of July. I know they kept in touch, talking on the phone and texting (at least on occassion) up until some time in late July, early August. To my knowledge, since D-Day she has only spoken to him once via text with me sitting there reading her texts and his responses, and once on the phone with me conferenced in and listening. No other contact since then. As I mentioned we are trying to get a NC letter ready to send him, but haven't finished it yet.

Thank you again...

Regards,
Rich

Rich, I will explain first that I am a recovering alcoholic with 26 years of sobriety myself so I can see your wife pretty clearly. There is no real committment here. She is still very committed to get what she wants, when she wants. Like you have noticed, she will just say whatever she needs to say to get you off her back and then go and do what she wants. That is the way of the bs artist. I see nothing here that indicates that has changed. That means she is dangerous to you.

I will just tell you she is not serious and that is evidenced by her actions. Her disappearing to go to Walmart, for example. I don't buy it. The fact that she even HAS a facebook page is astonishing and is more evidence of her lack of sincerity. If she was sincere about protecting your marriage, SHE would have removed that long ago.

These are all things that are not negotiable. You don't negotiate with a terrorist. I would certainly not take a chance with someone who was not even remotely interested in changing. And I can see by her actions she is not interested in making changes. She is interested in saying what she has to say to get you off her back, let me assure you.



Did you know it is impossible to meet the needs of an active addict?

All in all, Rich, I will be honest and say I don't see much here to save. The fact that she is still lying and sneaking around and is still hooking up on facebook are huge red flags. They would be huge red flags with a normal person, but they are billboards with an alcoholic, a professional liar and conartist.

And I say this as a former professional liar and conartist.


As far as the OM, I would do everything in your power, including getting him to sign away his legal rights to keep this scumbag out of your marriage and away from your kids. If you are FORCED to allow him to see the kids, I would only allow it through an IM, so that you and your wife don't ever have to see him.

I am back again. I hate reading long posts [hint, hint] so I try not to go too long but I had a suggestion for your approach with her. See, subltey does not work with alcoholics. A baseball bat with severe consequences is the only thing that will suffice. Alcoholics all believe deep down that we are Miss America and that you can't live without our glorious presence. It is when we accept that we are not so wonderful, that we are motivated to change. It takes very straightforward language to get this notion across to us.

For example, what woke me up was my husband telling me to my face that I was such a disgusting spectacle of a human being that he was ashamed to be my husband. And that if I did not stop drinking TODAY and go to AA meetings, I could get my [censored] on the bus and go live with my mother in Texas.

HOLY CRAP!! He was willing to part ways with the PRINCESS?? I could not believe it! So he explained I had 2 options: 1. get out or 2. never drink again and start going to AA. I chose option #2 and here I am 26 years later.

That is how you speak to an alcoholic. Trying to reason with such a conartist never works, as you have seen. So it will take a very firm ultimatum and very, very high standards of DEMONSTRATED ACTION. Talk is meaningless, so all her "promises" blah, blah, blah is about as relevant as the fogbabble of a falling down drunk. It means nothing. Talk is CHEAP.

I would give her a chance to earn your forgiveness by demonstrating trustworthy behavior and committing to a plan of recovery. If she won't do that, then you don't have a marriage. But she won't do that unless you raise the bar here.

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to settle for a loveless marriage with a liar and a sneak. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. never see or speak to the OM again FOR LIFE - send him a no contact letter

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships - no more facebook, etc

4. active recovery - never drinking or using again, and participation in an all female AA group

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back.

She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

I would have 2 priorities: her sobriety and your marriage. She can work both at the same time. The kids come AFTER that, because her sobriety and your intact marriage is in their best interest. That is their greatest security. IF you don't put your marriage first, you won't have a marriage before long.


I agree you should be very cautious about whether or not you stay with her, because this does not look hopeful to me. But it must be your priority to get away from her and protect yourself and your child if she doesn't take this seriously. And I see no sign of that here.

Why isn't she going to AA? I would never send her to a co-ed AA meeting [they are pick up joints] but she could be addressing her problem RIGHT NOW by going to an all female group and getting a sponsor locally.

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But now I have one and I have to worry about being very high risk for getting another one.

Rich_Confused, have you ever had a cold sore in your life? If so, then you had HSV1. What type of testing did you have for herpes; was it an antibody test? If so, have another done, because there has been enough time for IgG antibodies to form -if you are negative now, you won't be positive later unless exposed at a later date. Even if you ARE positive, there's a very good chance you won't ever have symptoms. As far as sex with your wife, you need to read up on living with herpes and how the partner can protect him/herself.

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here in FL, a child's paternity may not be contested if the child is born into an "intact" marriage. This continues for the life of the marriage. It is only once the couple divorces and the marriage is dissovled that paternity may be contested by any of the three (H, W, OM). To my knowledge there is no limitation on the timeframe that this may occur within. So he cannot be held responsible for any support neither may he excersize any rights, until we were to divorce and contest. It seems a little silly to me. I wouldnt pursue him for support anyway, but the fact is, that if we wanted him to support them and we wanted to stay together, we would have to divorce, challenge paternity, then remarry.

You've been getting really bad information - whoever told you this is full of it. You have a finite time to contest the paternity of the twins, all you need to do is contact an attorney, tell them you want to formally contest the paternity of the twins, they will arrange for a paternity test to be performed at a lab like LabCorp, and when the results come back that you are NOT the putative father you are off the hook for 18 years of child support. It has to be done NOW, R_C, not later, not when you decide you want to get divorced 4 years from now when you realize your wife is broken beyond repair. Because then it would be too late, the court would rule that you let your window of opprtunity slip by, and so you cannot contest the paternity. You could find yourself in the situation where you have absolutely no rights to see the kids while you are paying about 40% of your pre-tax income. Don't believe me? Search paternity fraud on the internet - there's a plethora of info on the subject.

I can't tell you what to do, that is your decision, I know what I would do in your situation, but that's irrelevant. I am going to tell you though that you need to think long and hard about the best course of action for you and your oldest boy - not your wife. Think logically, not empotionally, because the financial ramifications would be severe in your case.

Should you file for divorce, I would think that you have enough to gain custody of your older boy given the adultery and OC along with the substance abuse.

Rich_


I can tell you that you can look at those twins and not se the hurt.

I have done it.

I am running right now but will find time to write more this weekend.

rich

when my w told me she was pg with our oc i could see no way that i would be able to look at that child and not see the hurt and betrayal that she represented.

i was wrong. there were several things that i had to come to terms with.

if i loved my w and was going to rebuild and stay in my marriage i had no choice but to accept this child. after all the baby was part of my w. kinda hard not love one and not the other

i had to realize that the oc was just as innocent as my com

i came to understand that unfortunately A's happen all the time and pregnancy is one circumstance of sex

i had to look inside my own heart and ask questions about my own beliefs

did i truly beleave that Jesus died for me and to forgive me of my sins

as much as i wanted to say yes i had to understand that to God there is no difference in sin. so mine were the same as hers

did i have the strength to forgive my w

did i truly mean the vows i gave to God and my w on my wedding day

these are all questions you need to ask yourself

now i have to admit that my w was not struggling with the addictions that your w is dealing with

those need to be addresed first or you can never get to teh issues i had to deal with

bottom line is YES you can and will get to the point where you will not see YOUR twins as a trigger

it has been siad many times. dna does not make a father. it's the good stuff

holding her when they wake at night with a bad dream.

holding her when they are sick

teaching them to ride their bikes

the 1st time they say daddy

taking them to their 1st day of school

etc

etc

etc

it's been nearly 11 years since this came into my life with many emotional setbacks. but i have to tell you that i have no idea what my life would be like without our oc in it

i honestly beleave that God put her in my life for a reason

not sure why

to teach me who i was inside

to help me teach forgiveness and compassion to my family and friends

karma for my failures

Rich, I want to emphasize that sometimes the strong thing to do is to step away. It is weak to remain in an abusive situation and allow yourself to get dragged down into the tarpit. There is no strength in that. From a biblical standpoint, God tells us not to associate with darkness for that very reason.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

Forgiveness is to be afforded when a person shows repentance and even then, it does not mean one has to STAY in the marriage. Keep that in mind. There is no virtue in staying in a destructive, toxic marriage where you will suffer a death of a thousand cuts. Dr Harley recommends just compensation before forgiveness is afforded. Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Rich, take it from a recovering alcoholic, your wife is not serious about her personal recovery. The fact that she lies to you and disappears for hours tells me she has not changed.

MelodyLane,

Thank you again for your insight. Some of it I really didn't want to hear, but I needed to hear all of it. It has really helped me appreciate some of where things stand and what I need to do now and prepare myself for.

I already talked to her about some of this before and I talked to her about AA last week after I read your replies. I am going to talk to her again and cover all of them again and to discuss some of them in further detail. Mostly I am going to make it very clear that if she wants to keep us together then she is going to have to start doing alot more of the work.

1) She has already committed to never seeing or talking to the OM, ever. We do still need to send a No Contact Letter and I will bring that up.

2) She is doing well with regard to transparency. I have all of her passwords, she offers me her phone sometimes and other times when I pick up her phone or laptop to look at she doesnt say anything negative or act defensive.

3) Thought it felt like I had to beat her over the head on opposite sex friendships, she seems to get it now and has committed not to have such friendships or unnecessary acquaintances.

4) After I read your reply last week I spoke to her about this. I didn't even realize that they had meetings for all female and all male in addition to co-ed. Since then she has gone to two meetings. Both were ladies only. One was a bookstudy and the other was an discussion. She seemed to really hit it off with the bookstudy group and has a temporary local sponsor. And she may become her permanent sponsor.

5) This is the one that she seems the least interested in. Don't get me wrong. She had read probably 5 or 6 articles from the MB site and she seems to be doing everything she can to make me happy and meet my needs. She just seems to be holding back when it comes to a formal (structured) program. So I will be very clear with her on what I expect and what she needs to do about this one.

My only question to you would be... What kind of time frames are reasonable? I dont mean for recovery, I know that can be 2 - 5 years and longer. But for her to get her act together? She appears to be willing to and trying to accomodate my requests. But I am asking for a LOT of change and she is not perfect and wont be able to magically transform over night. I don't want to be unreasonable in my expectations but I also don't want to let it drag on if she doesnt make enough progress. So do you think I should be looking at couple of weeks or a couple of months, or?

Thank you again, I really appreciate everything.

Regards,
Rich

americajin,

Thank you very much for your response.

No, to my recollection, I have never had a cold sore. But even if I had, the HSV1 is new. I can say this with confidence, because my mouth is not where I am experiencing the outbreaks and I have never had these outbreaks before and that much I am 100% positive.

I don't know what type of test it was specifically other than I went in fasting and they drew like 5 vials of blood and ran a battery of tests including all of the common STDs that could be tested via blood. I assume it was an antibody test.

The doctor said that I was negative but that if I had been exposed to it very recently (we had been continuing to have unprotected sex even after DDay leading up to the tests. She says she has never had an outbreak that she was aware of, but I have read conflicting information about if you have to have an outbreak to spread them. I know at the very least it can be spread for a period of time prior to and after visible symptoms of an outbreak. But there seems to be some differing of opinions on if there are no outbreaks. I would hope it is unlikely at this point that I am actually positive, but I will probably get retested every so often to make sure nothing has changed.

I understand that HSV1 and HSV2 are not serious and that they need not be viewed in such a negative light. I know there are millions of people with them that lead happy normal lives. And that if I do have it or get it that I may never experience any symptoms. That doesn't change how I feel about it. As trivial as they may be for the vast majority of the population, I should have never been exposed to them, and I wouldn't have been if she hadn't done the things that she has done.

Yes, I am sure I need to do more reading. I have been trying to read anything I can find that looks helpful, but it can be difficult to distinguish the good information from the redundant or inaccurate, when there is soooo much information available on the web. If you can recommend any specific sources I would be greatful.

Thank you for the information on paternity. I will contact another attorney to find out how much it will cost. I was going based on the information I could find by searching the internet and based on what I had been told via a (pre-consultation) email from an attorney. But I will check into it and see if I can get some better information and again, find out how much this will likely cost.

Thanks again for your comments.

Regards,
Rich

pops,

Thank you so much for your comments. It is a difficult situation to wrap my head around and it helps to hear from someone who has experienced a very similar situation. I would say that I don't think I see eye to eye with you on some things, but please dont take any of these wrong. I still greatly value your comments and I strongly believe that they are now and will be applicable/helpful to me.

I understand and agree about the idea that if I'm going to stay and rebuild that I will need to accept them as well as her.

I know all to well that they (the OC twins) are the only ones that are truly innocent in this situation and deserve to have the best possible life. That is one of the reasons I want to make the right decision now.

I don't agree with the A's happen and pregnancy can result. The fact of the matter is there are a lot of us out there that can manage to be in a committed relationship and even when things are bad and we are miserable in the marriage and still not have an A. Furthermore the pregnancy and the STDs could have both been avoided even though an A happened. I'm not saying I can't understand it at all. But I have an extremely difficult time accepting it.

I do believe that Jesus died for me and for my sins to be forgiven and that I in no way deserved or earn that forgiveness and that God does not distinguish between the sins she has committed versus what I have committed. However, I also believe that adultery is the only scriptural grounds for divorce. I believe that while it is never God's desire that a marriage end in divorce, and that while adultery should not and does not mean automatic divorce, that divorce and even remarriage is permissible in this situation.

I still don't know if I have the strength to forgive my wife. Not in a meaningful way that I dont harbor some resentment and ill feelings for the rest of my life. I believe it will be possible, but I just dont know yet. I'm still struggling with that. I hope that I can come to truly forgive her regardless if we remain married or not, but I'm far from perfect and I've never been in this situation before, so I have nothing really to help gauge what I will be capable of.

I absolutely did mean my vows. Unfortunately she did not hold those vows to the same high standard that I did. And again, even though it is not the best case scenario, I do believe that divorce is permissible and does not contitute me breaking my vows. I don't want it to have to come to that. But I don't believe that I am or that I should be held to them given the situation.

Yes, the addictions are a big problem and hopefully she will take her recovery seriously and not have any more issues regardless of what happens. I keep trying to help her appreciate that she needs to be 100% committed to recovery from her addictions, not for me, not for the kids, but for her, then as long as she is sober she can be there fore the kids, and if we are together then we can be there fore each other. Hopefully she will stay clean.

Thank you again. I do believe you that in time they will not be a trigger. I have to keep in mind that it has only been two months since I found out. It's natural that the pain would not have subsided yet. Anyway, you have helped give me confidence that if she is able to do the things necessary and I am able to commit to it, then I will be able to look forward to a day when I will not feel the pain that I currently do when I look at, talk about, think about, etc, them.

I agree whole heartedly about what you've said about being a father. And I know that if we stay together I will be the best father I possibly can be.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and experience with me.

Regards,
Rich