ARK77 I am sorry you are here, but what is your wife putting in your food?
MB is right on the mark

Wives don't want their husbands out of the house unless they're up to something.

And being on the phone with any other individual for as much time as you are talking about is not just a red flag but a red flag in a red stadium on a red campus in a red town in a red state.......


Trust us.... I know its hard you don't even know us


Try this one out for size 1900 text messages and over 50 hours a month on the phone to one person and its not me............

Of course there is nothing going on.


Don't move out! If its your house don't move out!
If she wants space who is it for........
And yes it suuuuuucccccckkkkkkkssss when they do it right in front of your face!!!

I have moved to a better place mentally, but I still make her go in the garage when she is on the phone........Then I go on the internet and buy myself something nice that I have always wanted......

There is nothing rare about that at all. Every wayward says this. It's in the script.

To those opposed to any non-MB thoughts:

I agree that if two people "agree" to make things work after any type of infidelity (Emotional or Physical), it is imperative to cut off communication with the EA/PA. However, in Ark77's situation, this is not the case.

I read Harley's books over 6 years ago, and was on this site for countless hours 5 and 6 years ago while going through a divorce. I share many of Harley's teachings when I work with clients.

Unfortunately, I am not allowed to advertise here, so I cannot provide you the information you're looking for like the book I published, my credentials, etc.

I can tell you that I am an educated and experienced person, and the insights I provide are immensily valuable.

If we are just here to parrot Harley's ideas, what new information are we truly providing?


**edit**

The purpose of this website is to learn Dr. Harley's program. If you would like to promote your own book, please feel free to do so on your website at your own expense. On this website, our purpose is to help posters learn Marriage Builders concepts. Dr. Harley has not endorsed your book, nor do you have permission to advertise here.

You are welcome to help posters understand Marriage Builders concepts. If not, we ask that you refrain from posting.

Any questions, please send me an email. Thank you, Fireproof

My post in response to this was disrespectful so I am removing it.

**edit**

You have bills to pay, family to feed, etc. We get that. I was very offended when I saw that you had so cavalierly linked your website to Dr. Harley's forum. STOP TROLLING FOR CUSTOMERS! These posters are in the best place they can be. They don't need your warm, fuzzy, new-age approach to life. They need to heal their marriages!

You, sir, are OUT OF ORDER.
Trolls annoy me.

I read your post, SC, before you zapped it and I didn't think it was disrepectful at all. You made a good point. And you can send me your apple pie recipe any time.
Opt

Why, thank you, opt!

.
Proof of what ark? I can give you proof that EA's are dangerous and destructive to a marriage if you'd like. Read my thread in the OC board for an example of an "innocent" EA. The next EA was witnessed by my children and everyone in the town -- ask my kids how they felt about mommy spending all kinds of time with a 30 year old "just friend" who was not related to them. BTW, for a marriage to thrive, there must be a certain amount of time spent with two spouses in uniterrupted time together. This doesn't happen when one spouse is talking and texting for hours/day.
You HAVE a smoking gun, my friend. Ask your friends how they would feel if their spouse was sending hundreds of texts to another and not letting them see what they're writing. Now do that with everyone you know and who might care about your marriage, friends and family alike. When they respond, tell them you need their HELP saving your marriage. �Please talk to my wife, she�s not hearing me, maybe she�ll hear you. --- please tell her she�s making a major mistake and throwing her marriage away. Please tell her she is destroying her kids� perception of what a marriage is supposed to be and setting them up for dismal relationship problems in the future.� �Wa-La you�ve just exposed. You�ve just made it very uncomfortable for your wife to continue her affair out in the open. You�ve taken away some of the mystique from it. AND you�ve just stood up for your marriage. We have many WW�s here who are so grateful to their BS�s for exposing. It�s the only thing that opens their eyes. And it�s the only way to stop your wife�s affair from progressing to the physical, if it hasn�t already� in spite of what you might read from �educated� posters.
Oh, and moving out makes you complicit in your wife's nefarious activities. She will see you as a willing accomplis and take full advantage of the situation from a practical as well as an emotional perspective.
opt

Thanks, Opt.

I wish it wasn't so painful for all of you trying to reach me. I do think ending the EA is imperative. I get that. I want it done *now*. Trouble is, she's pulling the D card.

So we have a standoff - if she is going to pursue divorce, I'm not leaving the house, and I'm fighting for the kids and everything I have.


There is a legitimate problem. I have boundary issues. Whether due to biploar disorder or the dysfunctional family I grew up in, I have trouble giving my wife or kids an appropriate amount of space and get over-attached to them. WW may actually need some physical time and space to re-establish her boundaries so we can work on having a more healthy relationship. Yes, I believe this concern is getting magnified by her rationalizing the EA and the "fog" and what not.

If she's willing to give up the EA, I am willing to spend some time out of the house, if we are really working on the marriage.


The reason exposure is likely not to work is that she and I are what Keirsey (http://www.keirsey.com/) calls "rationals".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirsey_Temperament_Sorter

We're geeks, essentially.

Keirsey literally wrote the book on the basic temparaments seen in people, and everyone sorts into these 16 categories. ("Please Understand Me II" - David Keirsey - 1998) It's fascinating stuff if you're interested in how people relate to each other or how temperament drives many of the behaviors and decisions people make.

A friend of ours got us the book so that my wife and I could better understand each other and how we relate to each other. There were a few things I picked up on, especially the section of the book on rational mating.


She is specifically the INTJ type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTJ)
and I am ENTP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENTP)

Anyway, my point is that exposure is much more likely to backfire with her than with most people. Even though it's an uphill battle, I'm better off convincing her that staying with me is in her best long-term interest. That is something she is quite unsure of right now.

I forgot to mention that WW and I have a date tomorrow night. Any suggestions on dos and don'ts?

Ark,

I would draw the line in the sand on the EA and contact with this POSOM. Anything short of her willingness to end the A and help place boundaries that you can be comfortable with will fail.

There can be no recovery unless she severs her relationship with the POSOM, and you are kidding yourself if you think there my be away around that fact.

The facts are that you will end up divorced if she continues this EA/PA and her threatening to D you over trying to break up the EA is an empty threat, you are going to D anyway you have nothing to loose but to play hard ball with her. Make it clear in no uncertain terms what you have to have if you are going to continue in a relationship with her.

Oh and on the date absolutely NO groveling NO crying, NO sniveling. Be strong Be confident Be polite Be sure

YOU DON'T NEED HER, YOU CAN FUNCTION JUST FINE WITHOUT HER AROUND IF NECESSARY.
Ok that one is one you don't tell her just keep that one in your heart.

DON'T tell her anything about your possible plan to expose the affair.
DO: anything PLAN Aish-
*be a nice guy like when you were dating -- opening doors and smiling at her.
*do something you both enjoy (especially that she enjoys).
*be emotionally available to HER (meet that emotional need that OM is meeting now - show her you can do it).
*try not to get upset about anything she says -- she's likely to push a lot of your buttons just to see how you'll react; she want's you to fail in your role as a husband (and possibly even RUIN the date) because that gives her more justification to carry on with the affair.
*LISTEN more than talk, agree whenever you can and don't bring up your own concerns for now; be strong and present.
Oh, she's going to say it's all a ruse on your part, that this isn't really you. Just confidently say you realize you've made mistakes in the past and you are totally focussed on being a better, more in-tune person. You're working hard to be the husband she always wanted and plan to be around for her when she's 90.

that's all I got.

opt
\eta: ps: offer to leave your cell phone at home so you can give her your undivided attention (the kids can survive for a couple hours OUT of communication, we certainly did when our parents went out). ---MAYBE she'll take the hint and leave hers at home too. otherwise you may have to be more direct: "I'd appreciate it if you left your phone home or turned it off so that I can concentrate on what you are saying without worrying about a text coming in in the middle of your words".
make sense ark?

None of this or any other part of the post above has convinced me that exposure "would not work." The point of exposure is to remove one important element of the affair: secrecy. Affairs are exciting and clandestine and hyper-romantic because they are carried out under a cloak of shared risk. "He must really like me if he's willing to go to these lengths to talk to me." "Only 2 people know about us (really know...all the details), me and him - that's exciting." Once people start asking her about it, even if she lies through her teeth, some of the mystery and intrigue of it will be gone; lights will start coming on in the crack house. She's going to be rip-roaring p*ss*d at first, but you're marriage can survive that. It can't survive having a third member. Nor can your children grow up with a sense of what marriage is about when they see mommy carrying on with a boyfriend (do you want your daughters to do this to their husbands? My ex's dad and grandfather were notorious cheaters -- don't you think that made it easier for her to flirt, and eventually date other men while married?)

Oh, and I haven't read your thread on the SA board, but are you starting to notice we're giving you the same advice over here? You need to go back there and get advice on how to save you marriage, if you really want to. You need to be strong and listen to what they are telling you - they are true experts. Many of them have the "proof" you seek: recovered marriages, survived exposures, Plan A/B executers...and some are even former waywards.

You are not divorced ark. You aren't even close. All waywards throw around that term - it gets them off. She's saying it to buy time for her affair. Even once things get going down the D road, it takes a long time. Plenty of time to expose and destroy the demon of adultery ... teach your kids what it means to be a father and a protector of them and a marriage.

opt

Ark, I appreciate all the time and effort you put into this post, but it doesn't change a thing about your WW. She's a garden-variety wayward. Nothing special there.

This thing where you get over-attached? When did this start happening? Has she complained before that you're too affectionate or touchy-feely for her? Have the kids complained? The LAST thing I would tell a wayward is that I would move out of the house so they could 're-establish their boundaries.' You don't separate to get back together, Ark. That is playing Russian Roulette.

Ark, hello: I am so sorry you are going through this.

My advice would be to stay in the house too. Once they are out of the house, they will be doing whatever they want to. Any time for ya'll will be out the window (Well in my case it is) but I think it would have been easier to work on us while he was here than now since he is gone. At least you are going on a date. Hope it works out. I would love to go on a date with my WW, but that is not going to happen on his part. Since he has been gone, he hasn't even mentioned us or trying to work it out, he has been living it up out there, so YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE...

I spoke with him the other day and I told him I was sorry that I didn't put my foot down and give him an ultimatum, either me or them... He said me too, you should have and things may have been different. (Sounded like BS to me) My point is, CHANGE NOW WHEN SHE WILL SEE THE CHANGES EVERYDAY. Try hard if it is what you truly want.

I will be thinking about you and cant wait to hear how the date went.

Thanks. I am about to leave on the date and... my stomach is upside-down and sideways and inside out. There is no gravity here.

She could give me signs she wants to work things out, or we could just have a good time, but I have this feeling she might be taking this opportunity to tell me to take a hike.

I'm breathing deeply and trying to look as calm on the surface as I can.

ARK. PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE. What is your plan? I'm not sure what it includes, but please tell us you're NOT LEAVING YOUR HOUSE.

umm... crap?

I told her that if she'd cut off contact with the EA, I'd move out for a while. She freaked out. Threw a tantrum. Said that if she doesn't get her emotional needs met by that guy, then she'd get them met by the guy at work, or from one of her female friends. I said that I understand she needs emotional support. Just pick a woman to get that support from.

She yelled that she's bi(sexual) and did I ever think of that. "So, what, women don't count?!?!" Well, they don't in this case. My WW likes kissing girls, but that's just not the main event for her.

I tried to be available to her and hear about her work and current stresses, but she was incredibly tense and on edge the whole time we were together. She could not make eye contact. She said that we're not on a rebuilding stage yet, and the date was inappropriate.

I didn't plan on talking about marital issues in a big way, but she forced the issue.

Her main complaint is that she has told me what she needs from me, and it is time away when I am moved out. I think there is a kernel of truth to it, and I am inclined to try it again (We did it for a while, and it really did seem to be helping, but I needed to come home because I had been essentially living homeless for a month and it wasn't helping my work life at all).

I'm willing to try it if she'll cut out the EA, regardless of the who the OP on the other end of the EA is.