ark, what was your "crap" response to? Could you please explain what it meant?

The details I underlined seem to be new. I have read through both your threads here and cannot find it mentioned before that your wife likes kissing women. This is by no means a minor detail, nor is the fact that she told you she would have an affair with "the guy at work".

I can't see where you have told us about "the guy at work", either. All I can see mentioned is HighSchoolBuddy. If you are not looking in the right place for this affair, of course you won't see it. If the affair is with "the guy at work", then there might be no need for them to contact each other using the internet or mobile phone - they see each other every day at work. HighSchoolBuddy could be her "asexual" (in you words) or gay friend to whom she confides the details of the affair.

Tell us about the 15 year-old child. Since you and your wife have been together 12-13 years she clearly isn't the child of both of you. Was your wife married before, or did she have a child before she was married? What is your wife's relationship with the father? When did this girl begin cutting herself, and why? What does your wife mean when she says you are "enmeshed' with her? Do you talk to the girl about your marital problems?

"crap" was in response to you all telling me not to move out and me offering to move out if she's stop all EAs.

Well, I haven't told all the details because, well, there are a lot of details!

The girl is my daughter. I got my girlfriend of 2 weeks pregnant when I was 18. I stayed with DD's(dear daughter, do you use that abbreviation here?) mom for 2 and a half years because of inertia and because we needed each other to raise that little girl. I figured we were stuck with each other and we might as well get the tax benefits, so we might as well marry. That lasted about 3 months before I realized I'd made a terrible mistake. I was 21. I moved out, DD was 2, and I soon had myself an XW.

This happened at *exactly* the same moment I met WW. She took my breath away. I loved her almost instantly. She's brilliant and I'd never met anyone like her. She was studying to get her PHD in neuroscience at the time. Also, she immediately started dating my best friend.

We had an EA almost from the get go. She, my two best friends, and I all lived in the same house for about 6 months. We were in a 4 sided love triangle. I was 21 and dumb. My dad tried to tell me "Bros before Hos" (not his words, but that was his sentiment) and I didn't get it. WW has had a *long* history of having her cake and eating it, too, that far predates our relationship.

She's always been bisexual. That's no surprise. I have a tendency to date/be attracted to bi chicks. I have no desire to be the alpha male type, and I don't really dig the women who are into them. That's not a problem in attraction between WW and I, as she mirrors my feeling on it, and the guys she chooses to have EAs with are like me, not like alpha males. She's much more interested in an emotional connection.

She got emotionally connected to me and my two best friends. Things got physical between her and my other best friend when she broke up with the first best friend, and things just blew up in the house. I left the house and found my own place soon after, and WW and I were hanging out a lot. We never dated, we just spent loads of time around each other and slowly morphed from friends into committed partners. There was no line. I can't say when it happened. The transformation was complete after 6 months of getting out of the house.

My two other friends barely spoke to each other for a long time. It took 6 years before they approached me and told me they missed me and another 2 years before enough of the tension was gone that we started hanging out regularly again.


I'm really not worried about her with another woman. She hasn't figured out how to attract and date other women, she just likes them. And she's never had a long-term relationship with another woman because she has certain... "needs" that women can't... fill. Artificial and simulation doesn't do it. We're a few months out now into no physical relationship, and she's going crazy. Simulation very much not cutting it.

I've tried to make it clear where the main attraction is a few times in hopes she'd let her guard down enough to have a little physical intimacy with me. I've been working hard on my body and haven't been in such good shape since high school. The guys she has EAs with, however, are pudgy, balding, and over the hill. It's hard to compete with that, I guess.

I think she may be thinking about moving to a physical affair with someone soon, and HSB is 400 miles away, so she'll probably take one of her local guy friends. I'm not sure the specific person matters all that much to her as long has he has the proper equipment

I have to get to church. I'll fill in more of the details and answer more of your questions after.

Well my goodness. Your marriage certainly had an unconventional beginning and you seem to have kept up the unconventional attitude. Just how many EAs have there been? Have you always put up with them?

I can see that you are unlikely to take any of the actions that we have suggested because you seem to have your own definition of marriage. It seems to be okay for your wife to have be openly emotionally involved with other people. You don't seem to see these relationships as affairs and don't seem to see that they led you to right where you are now.

You write that "I'm really not worried about her with another woman. She hasn't figured out how to attract and date other women, she just likes them. And she's never had a long-term relationship with another woman because she has certain... "needs" that women can't... fill. Artificial and simulation doesn't do it. We're a few months out now into no physical relationship, and she's going crazy. Simulation very much not cutting it."

She surely could work out how to attract and date other women if she wanted to. What makes you think she hasn't done so? And has she had a short-term relationship with another woman?

I find your thought processes very puzzling.

I can see that however many EAs there have been, they haven't bothered you much. It is only now that she is insisting on a divorce that you are worried - and yet you do not seem to connect the divorce to her involvement with other people. That is just bizarre to me. Can I just check that you are legally married - with a marriage certificate? I have to wonder why you two got married with what seems to be such a casual attitude to fidelity.

Does your daughter live with you both? Why is that? Why isn't she with her mother? And, when you talk about leaving, are you planning to take your daughter with you, or leave her with your wife? If the latter, why are you doing that? Does she see much of her mother?

Do the other two children belong to both of you?

ark, IMO, your wife has deep emotional problems. If I were you, I would not attempt to save the marriage. It sounds like she is not able to have a long-term relationship with one person.

Before our 13-year relationship, she had never been with someone longer than 6 months. We are both unconventional in various ways.

Also, she is getting the adivce, "IMO, your husband has deep emotional problems. If I were you, I would not attempt to save the marriage."

I'll take time to address more of your questions directly. Despite lack of convention, marriage means a lot to both of us. As far as the emotional affairs go, they haven't existed during our marriage until recently. I'd been warned by friends and not really understood. Now she tells me, indignantly, "I've never cheated on you." bah.

I know the EA is wrecking our marriage and chances of reconciliation. Also, the bit about taking up with someone else was a tantrum on her part. When I said she had to give up the EA for me to move out (which she insists is necessary for us to get back together), it hit her hard.

She really wants to believe the deterioration of our marriage is all my fault.

Except that there are little children involved, and they deserve better than to have a mother who has relationships as and when, and a father who lets that happen. A divorce isn't necessarily going to improve life for those kids. Who will they live with? Will the revolving door of partners ever stop?

The best solution would be for the current affair to be ended and the marriage to be given a radical overhaul. Then, happiness and stability for the whole family could be worked upon. That can be done using the MB programme.

The reasoning process that got you to make that offer is insane, in my view. Here is the reality:

If she gives up the EA you don't need to move out.

If you move out you will not know if the EA ever really ends, or if it restarts.

If it appears to stop and you move out, it can go physical without you watching her every move.

If it appears to stop and you move out, he can move in.

Oops. I missed the fact that there were children of the marriage. I saw that ark had a child from a previous relationship.

In that case, I'd strongly suggest that both ark and his wife enter into individual therapy--not to figure out what caused their emotional problems, but to learn new, healthier ways of dealing with past hurts. And that they also do phone counseling with someone from Marriage Builders.

If they are both willing to do that for the sake of their children, then the marriage could possibly be saved.

I can see how marriage coaching might be of great help, but individual therapy is usually a distraction and a waste of time. Dr Harley has commented on this kind of therapy:

I'm pretty sure individual therapy helped WW feel better about filing for divorce. She feels that she has to do it to protect herself.

Do your feelings on my spending some time away change at all if you look at this this way: Imagine that I am an alcoholic. I've hurt people around me because of my addiction. I've seen the light now that my wife has said she's had enough and I say I'm a changed man. My wife is skeptical and wants to see if maybe I do put my life in order. And if I do, then she'll be ready to recommit.

Meanwhile, she's asking me to move out and I'm refusing, leaving her feeling that she has no alternative to divorce.

If you are a "changed man" then what is the point of leaving?

She doesn't know that I'm a changed man.

When your alcoholic husband says he's a changed man, after destroying your trust in him, you want to believe him, but it might not be wise. The last thing you want is you and the kids having to deal with another episode of destructive behavior.

I'm not an alcoholic. My wife's fears are that I might stop working, overspend, and not tell her until we go bankrupt. Or, I might repeat the destructive relationship patterns I had with my oldest daughter with our two youngest. She is also convinced that I don't know how to stop behaving in the way that she says has crushed her soul.

She says I'm controlling and manipulative and she doesn't know what her own feelings are because I make her feel what I want her to feel until she is just numb. That is the main reason she wants me out of the house during the wait-and-see-if-he-has-changed period.

There is another thing. Someone said I'm better off without WW. I don't entirely disagree. The way she is acting is so hurtful and selfish.

I don't want to be married to this person as much as my wife doesn't want to be married to the person that destroyed her trust and "broke" her soul.

But I desperately want to be married to the woman I knew 4 months ago. I want desperately to have a chance to be the kind of husband I ought to be - one that wouldn't have lost her in the first place.

For all the pain this is causing me, I'd just let her go and see if we come back together later.

But there are kids involved and I owe it to them to take extreme measures to put this marriage back on track.

Right. And she won't know if you leave. You can't very well fix a marriage if you aren't there. Think on that. If your car is in the garage and needs to be fixed, do you go in the garage and fix it or do you drive to Cleveland, Ohio, far away from the car?


Moving out solves none of that unless your goal is to get divorced.

So you stick around and display to her all those positive changes on a consistent daily basis. We call it Plan A and I recommend it to you.
As for the separation -you should suggest she moves out, not you. Waywards love that one.

If you were practicing MB principles there would be no way to "overspend" and have her find out once you're bankrupt. MB couples share everything and use a strategy called POJA where neither person does something that they aren't both enthusiastic about.

This "someone" who suggested you were better off without WW...are they experts at saving marriages? If you want to save your marriage, you should stick with people who have proven plans to do so, like Dr. Harley. You wouldn't go to a mechanic to have your broken arm casted, would you?

opt

Well, POJA is going to be a hard sell on her. Especially now! I can't really even do a half a POJA because she doesn't want to be involved in my decisions. She doesn't want to let me know whether she prefers or doesn't prefer many of my actions lately. To see if I'll magically do the right thing? To sabotage me?

Anyway, I've come to ask how I can Plan A HARDER. What should I be doing better?

I realized a few days ago that I wasn't doing everything I thought of last month when I committed to doing Plan A stuff - specifically, I haven't been letting her in on how I was doing in work and in mood. This was a big issue (maybe THE big issue) that brought about the divorce, but she told me she doesn't want to know any more.

I still could have told her. And I could have done a better job making sure neither have gotten off track. Frankly, keeping myself positive, motivated, and not distracted while fighting (and fearing like crazy) a divorce is not an easy thing for a bipolar to accomplish.

I've been distracted at work and really fell behind.

You can say suck it up all you want. I'm trying over here. It's not easy. I'm trying. I feel new focus coming on now.

I want so much for some sort of acknowledgement on her part that I'm doing the right thing and that I should keep going. I only realized a couple of days ago that her forgetting about moving forward with the divorce over the last month was just that - but not in a way that I could tell, and not in a way that kept me from feeling panic at some point almost every day.

Anyway, any tips on how to Plan A stronger?

You state that she has trust issues so it is probable that she feels a POJA would not be worth the effort on her part as you will not keep to the the rules.

This makes it a perfect way to demonstrate how you have changed. You can POJA a decision without her being aware of the negotiation. Just ask her casually whether she would like you to "plant some flowers" (substitute any action here). If she shrugs her shoulders, tell her firmly that unless she 100% agrees, you will not do it out of respect for her feelings. After that totally drop the subject of "planting the flowers" and continue cheerfully on with your day.

Keep doing this on small stuff until she gets the picture. Trust can only be built one brick at a time.

I'm thinking of posting something on facebook saying something along the lines of:


Does anyone think this is a good or bad idea or that I should change anything?

I wouldn't suggest this.

Ark, what have you done about ending the EA/PA that your WW is in? I haven't seen that you've done anything about her affair.

Sorry Ark,
I was out at the mall with my kid when I read this but I couldn't respond on my phone. Plus, I was with my kid.

I hope you haven't done this. It reminds me a lot of something I did when I was trying to Plan A. I actually busted into my now ex-wife's account and changed some of her settings [like I changed her relationship status from "nothing" to "married."] I THEN asked others here if that was smart. Consensus: NO!
See, what I didn't realize is that it was just another example of my INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR which had been a problem in the years leading up to ww's affair. Waywards don't understand the logic in any of this either (especially the stuff you have written above); they are simply on a different planet and it will most certainly NOT have the effect you're hoping for. She will also spin it to her benefit in the whole thing to all of your friends and you will simply wind up looking desperate and possibly a little creepy. You need to be strong, confident and use your actions to portray the picture you're trying to sell above. It will NOT happen in one day - as we've been saying, daily consistent actions; possibly for quite a while.

Now, people have used FB (in addition to multiple other approaches) to EXPOSE an affair. That is a different animal altogether. Have you reconsidered exposing the affair at all?

Opt
PS, if you HAVE sent the post, don't dispair. People make lots of mistakes in Plan A and still can be successful. It just sets you back. You'll probably have to do some serious apologizing, but we'll help you come at it from a MB perspective so that you tie in the principles; as well as portray that you are simply trying to do everything you can to save the marriage because you truly love her and don't want a divorce. (that's still true, right, ark?)