Geez this thread moves fast!

STAND YOUR GROUND. This is your one shot. Having been through it I can already she her breaking, but theres a long way to go.

You're getting tons (Marital you PITA:)) of good advice, but one thing - you remind yourself to deal with the pastor that blew your confidentiality later..She needs a good swift kick in the career.

Lol, Reynolds that is right on.

Sounds like a flaky church IMO.

Sometimes being alone with God is the best medicine for our conscience.

My wife suffered for years because she felt like she would be letting God down, and unfaithful, and might relapse, because she went to a counselor, or AA, or admited God put those people here as his agents for healing.

Its like the story of the man who was in a flood, and when the fireman came with a boat, he said,"No God will save me" and stayed at the house.
When the waters rose and he was on the roof, a helicopter came and let down a rope ladder, and he said the same thing

He drowned and went to heaven, and asked God, "Why didn't you save me?" God said, "I sent the fireman and a helicopter"

People are proud, and don't see, the body of Christ works through the spirit, even when people don't belong to the church.

But they have to have attendance, and want to work dependance, into the lives of there congregation. I would say that the Pastor broke a confidance, arrogantly and dangerously so. They don't know about saving marriages obviuosly either.

For someone who is supposed to know about the spirit it seems they are not factual but are emotionally based in thier faith.

Many churchs are like this, and sell themselves as the be all end all of everything, when God is bigger than the church, and the pastors only have a portion of God to share, they don't know all the answers.

But there is help for her, if she will accept she needs it, from professionals, who might not go to the same church, but pray to God to be of service to others, but they do it in private.

What arrogance, and what Pastor, betrays a trust like that?

I really, really wish that churches would use romantic love as a litmus test for their married church leadership. Seriously, I wish they would administer Dr. Harley's LBI.

Seems like all of the things the apostle Paul said were good for an elder in his epistles to Timothy and Titus are more achievable if a good man is in love with a good woman.

MrA,

You have a responsibility to get your wife the help she needs. Now. No matter how well you know your wife, you really don't know if someone is serious about suicide or not.

FWIW, after a very tragic event this summer my DH did get me help. He threatened to committ me, got me an appointment with our family doctor who knew me, got me on some decent meds, took care of a support group for me, and had he not done all of that the outcome probably would have been very different for me. I never threatened suicide as blatently as your wife, but I did mention it a time or two and my DH wasn't willing to take the chance that I might or might not be serious.

Please get your wife the help she needs with a good psych ward, not a (relatively) untrained pastor or Christian Counselor. Our pastor made things worse for me and I did need medical intervention. I was pretty pissed at him for getting me treatment, but it was the best decision that he could have made.

Steph

Not all churches are family based, offer marriage counseling or are that commited to it. Its terrible because the marriage is a reflection on our relationship with the Father and is supposed to mimic it. The church me and my wife belonged to was mission based, and it was all about planting churches around the world. Money was important, so important that members with it were chosen over menbers without it, even members who were faithful for years. You were called to come with a good marriage, and were expected to maintain it. Many marriages were destroyed in service to the missions.

Many people need practical help in thier marriage, the kind DR H gives, and it would mean so much to the world of churches, to glean from his work and use his methods I agree. Strong familys in the congregation show a balanced church, with priorities in order. Any church that does not have the humility to learn and accept those ideals that keep a good marriage relationship, has a hole in thier head, and to me, Charity begins at home, and the family is Gods crown jewel, and why leadership in love works in the first place.

OK Mr A sorry for the threadjack

UPDATE:
Sorry - no internet. WW hit bottom and did not want to live anymore. I was taking her threats as a way to get me to back down. I was trying to not let it phase me but still pleading with her it was the wrong path for her and the family.

On her way back home yesterday she was still thinking about driving her car off the road. She drove off into the woods and just started wandering. GOD spoke to her in the woods audibly and told her to "move" "and go back and tell your husband you love him". She asked me to come home and I did.

When she walked through the door she was in tears and gave me the warmest embrace ever. Her wedding ring was back on (not actually tossed out window). She told me this miraculous story of the ways God worked on her. We prayed and read Eph 5 as it was put on the radio by God for her to read. She wants me again, feels the love for God and me again. Wants to reconcile, feels terrible for her actions this weekend and has asked forgiveness from the kids.

However, right now she will not let go of shifting blame on publicly humiliating her and she want me to admit that I was wrong in letting so many know. She said I should have kept it with close family and some close best friends. I did expose her to one person at work who apparently has a big mouth. She is concerned about her job and that people were judge her first as an adulterer. I thought this person was more of a friend to her, but it sounds like she fwd my message to other coworkers.

She wants to know where I got this advise from as she wants no part of the rest of the rebuilding program. She said that she was by the grace of God opening her heart without anger and telling me what I wanted to know and asked for me to give her the truth and open up to her so she could move on. She wants to know I didn't make this up on my own. Wants no part of it as she doesn't feel like it fits the NEW DIRECTION God has sent her in yesterday. I mentioned polygraph to her and that tripped her off and made her suspicious. I did say I read of this method on the web.

I've never seen my wife more sincere and one with God. I have never seen her pray like she did yesterday and last nite. She thanked God for me and revealed there is no other man she ever wants to be with. She wants to move away from her sin and commit completely to living a life for the Lord.

She realizes she did wrong but cannot understand the breadth of exposure. I know I was advised not to send her here & i wont tell her, but I think we can salvage my marriage and family, but I think if I showed her a little grace in this tender time of her wake up to Gods words, we can move forward with counceling, protecting our marriage and rebuilding the romantic love in it. She said she won't be able to move forward with rebuilding unless she knows who told me to ridicule her PUBLICLY. I said well file for divorce. That surprised her as I have avoided going that direction all along, so figured I was following a script. I was getting pretty upset with her, but I do really feel God has laid it on her heart.

We told DDs we wanna reconcile. They seem more at ease but it will still take time i think for them to process all this as well.

I set up a meeting with my pastor whom I confided in about the affair at 5 today. He took a MB workshop with his wife but the whole exposure thing was not touched on by their workshop.

She keeps telling me that she cant rebuild unless she knows it was wrong of me to expose to all the world. I know what you have told me but she isn't getting it all quite yet. She dreaded going to work and could hardly sleep again because of it. I told her I don't care what others think, I only care for my family and my marriage.

Should I just tell her that it was received on the i-net and that I won't be coming back and that we will seek out our own counsel/program to rebuild? She wants me to be fully honest now that she has been. That brings up the polygraph again. When I was asking her to be completely honest, I had asked if she was willing to do polygraph. Later I mentioned it again and she figured out it must be something that was recommended in the plan. She said there is no such Christian program that would expect that form of recovery process. She wants to recover with Christ as the center of our marriage and family and sees this as completely wrong.

Remind her that God is sovereign over ALL things. Even the exposure. Nothing happens that is out of his control. That when God redeems a person it isn't a half baked deed. He often does it by bringing sin to light.

remind her that God uses means. Even when they aren't comfortable. Scripture tells us that God is no respecter of persons. He brings sin to light.

Exposure was one of the means to do this.

Next post, I will post on what real biblical repentance looks like from a repentant wayward...

CV

How about taking some ownership here and stop playing games? Tell her you made the decision to expose and that you would have taken out a billboard if you could have afforded it. Remind her that if she wasn't doing something wrong, there would be nothing to expose.

Let her know that you are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness but all of her bitterness about exposure is not helping in that regard. Tell her it is a crying shame you were put in that position in the first place.

You need to nip this in the bud now and stop acting like you did something wrong. The only reason she is angry about exposure is BECAUSE OF HER FOG. But you are going to make the FOG WORSE if you act like you did something wrong.

Stop saying you read it on the internet. Tell her YOU MADE THE DECISION. And make it a part of your conditions that she participate in the MB recovery program. THAT IS NOT NEGOTIABLE.

My apologies, this is a long, but necessary post:

Notice during this discourse that the offending party's sin had been exposed to the whole church.

Repentance unto Life: An Exegetical Discourse on II Corinthians 7:9-11


2Co 7:9-11 as it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (10) For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (11) For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.


Paul had previously written to the church in Corinth concerning several sins that the church had fallen into, moral, ecclesiastical and doctrinal. As The Apostle here approaches our section in chapter 7, he begins to make mention of his previous letter to them. It appears that Paul�s letter of chastisement to the Corinthians has taken root and that they are truly repentant. It is in this context that Paul begins his discourse in verses 9-11, establishing exactly what godly grief over sin looks like.

(verses 7-9):


As Paul begins his discourse, it is clear that his attitude was that of bringing the offending party or parties to a state of repentance, and though he was grieved over the need to speak to them in harsh words, he is glad for the benefits it produced. The letter, though not written in the tone and spirit Paul may have desired, nonetheless produced profitable results for its readers. In essence, Paul is saying that even though he is saddened that he had to write in the manner he did, he rejoices over the fruit that it has borne and this in itself is cause for rejoicing.

It is clear that Paul has discipline in mind as he speaks to the Corinthians. Though he was saddened by the fact he had to admonish and rebuke, he saw the necessity of it as well as the subsequent fruit. Paul�s admonition brought what he describes as, a godly grief and as such says they suffered no loss. That is, no damage was done to their souls as a result of the rebukes. What Paul is rejoicing in then is what the puritans refer to as a �true evangelical repentance�, that is a lasting repentance which is for the right reasons, the nature of which he goes on to describe in subsequent verses.

2Co 7:10-11 for godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (11) For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.


Paul now, after having established what true repentance is, grief borne from God, he now proceeds to describe what the nature of true repentance looks like. The apostle tells us that godly grief produces in the broader sense, repentance, or turning from sin, that leads to salvation. This contrast of true and false repentance is first put in the context of salvation versus death, speaking of our eternal state. It is in this context that true Christian repentance is explained. True Christian repentance is repentance without regret as the ESV states. Perhaps a better rendering of verse 10 might be this:

�For sorrow according to God accomplishes a reformation (or repentance) that saves and is irrevocable (without regret), but the grief of the world fashions (or brings) death.� (my translation)

The true work of God, Paul says is one that does not bring regret, because it is not a false repentance. The apostle describes a repentance that is irrevocable because it is a God-given repentance and thus, we do not have to despair over it. The contrast with a worldly grief, that is a temporary turning from the sin, is in Paul�s understanding a matter of life and death. So true repentance then produces a desire, which may be evidenced visibly in the repentant believer. So as Paul begins his discourse in verse 11, we see the product, or fruit, of what God-given repentance brings.

Paul in verse eleven gives us seven marks of true repentance. Let�s consider each one in order:

1. Earnestness: Firstly and most generally, there is an earnest desire that becomes a Christian who is truly repentant. This earnestness (spoude) signifies haste, or a speed that accompanies repentance. I believe that what Paul is trying to get across to his readers is that when the offending party encounters God-given repentance there is a haste or speedy desire to make things right. It is recognition that the offending party desire to make things right before God and his fellow man. Calvin notes in his commentary that this earnest desire �we may understand from what is opposed to it; for so long as there is no apprehension of sin, we lie drowsy and inactive. Hence drowsiness or carelessness, or unconcern, stands opposed to that earnest desire� � This earnestness then is tied to the desire to speedily remedy the wrong done by the sinner.

2. Eagerness: Secondly, there is an eagerness to clear yourself. Literally, to give an apology or defense. Calvin notes that rather than give a defense or excuse for the sin, the word (apologion) is used in the sense of asking pardon. The plea, or apology, then is not to excuse the sin, but rather to seek mercy and forgiveness from the one who has been offended . The idea is akin to coming and throwing yourself at the mercy of the court rather than giving a defense of your case to prove your innocence in the particular matter. This signifies a differentiation in attitudes. The person who has not truly been apprehended by God with true repentance seeks to justify or give reason for the sin committed, but the person truly gripped by a godly sorrow has a humble and contrite attitude. They do not seek to give an explanation for why they sinned so much as they seek mercy for their sin, recognizing that they are without excuse.


3. Indignation: This is indignation towards their sin and even against themselves. This is a righteous, godly indignation, which accompanied with the other evidences, does not lead to a morbid introspection, but rather an outcry against the sin committed. The sinner then seems angry at the sin and even at themselves for having engaged in it, knowing that there is only himself to blame for having engaged in that sin. This is more intense than sorrow Calvin says, because it has become the first step towards hating evil . Thomas Watson comments in his treatise on true repentance that our indignation and sorrow for our sin should be of the same measure as the sin committed . He notes that the failure to weep over our sin is directly connected to our view of the riches of Christ�s mercy and grace poured out upon us !

4. Fear: What alarm or terror Paul says was produced as a result of repentance. This alarm, this phobos, derives from a sense of divine judgment. This stems from the knowledge that at the last day, every man must give account for his own actions. Proverbs tells us that fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.


5. Vehement desire: Paul accompanies fear with vehement desire, or longing. Whereas fear may stem from a natural inclination, according to Calvin, this longing is a more conscious desire rooted in the desire to not commit the sin anymore and thus risk God�s condemnation .

6. Zeal: Paul builds to a climax his exposition of the fruits of repentance. Building off the previous two fruits, fear and longing, Paul adds zeal which is a more intense form in this context of longing. This zeal stems from a desire to make things right as the offender desires to give evidence of his repentance.


7. Revenge: Paul finishes out his discourse on true repentance with revenge. ekdikesis) means vindication or retribution. True repentance then, also bears the mark of one who wants to vindicate themselves through the demonstration of their repentance. It may be that Paul here has in mind I Corinthians 11:31, where he tells them that if they would judge themselves, they would not be judged by the Lord. Paul here is telling us that if we would judge ourselves, then there would be no need to be chastened by the Lord. Private offenses, says Calvin, need not be handled publicly, but as in the case of the man who was openly sinning by sleeping with his father�s wife, there needed to be a public chastening and also a public repentance on the part of the Corinthians for their tolerance of such a sin .


In some instances, as evidenced in Paul�s description of our 7th point (Revenge), restitution may be in mind. For instance, if a man has taken the goods of another, he may seek to offer repayment for it. This must be a heartfelt restitution. In Luke 19:8, Zacchaeus offers to restore what he stole four-fold. This is a principle which was derived from Numbers 5:7. Important also to note is the fact that this idea was not limited to physical goods (land, money, goods), but extended to false accusations as well. Some sins though, may be so grievous that restitution may never be able to be provided. This must be kept in mind as we cannot separate the doctrine of repentance from Christ our great high priest. It is not possible for us to recompense God for sin against His Holy nature. So how is such a thing accomplished? It is only accomplished in the person and work of our savior, Jesus Christ. Christ has made restitution on our behalf before the Father. He has paid what no man can and has satisfied the righteous requirements of God�s law. Likewise, there may be instances where sin against our brother or sister is so great that restitution may not be possible. It is here also that the grace of God must cover our infirmities. Truthfully, the burden of this rests upon the offended party rather than the offender since it is the offended party who has to provide grace and mercy. Thomas Watson notes that the true child of God seeks the most to be revenged of the sins which have offended God the most . It may be that one of the best ways to avenge the sin is recompensing the one offended.


This may seem like a hard view of repentance, especially in light of the modern evangelical view of sin where grace is cheapened by a �soft repenting�. That is, a repenting that does little introspection does not search the heart and has a view that �God will just forgive whatever I do if I just ask�. Yet, we see David�s words in Psalm 51 regarding how we should view our own sin, where in verse 3, David says �my sin is ever before me�. David�s intent here is not that the threat of God�s judgment is ever before his eyes; rather it is the idea that our hearts should break because our own sin has grieved our comforter. David is saying �my sin is my own fault, and my own sin is before my face� In the Old Testament evidence of true repentance was shown outwardly through various means (shaving one�s head, weeping, sitting in ashes, and clothing one�s self in sackcloth), but in the New Testament Paul shows us a better way. Paul tells us in this passage 1) Our repentance must me God-inspired in order to be genuine repentance 2) Genuine repentance has genuine fruits 3) real repentance is not short-lived (as evidenced in the nature of the fruits it bears), hence the irrevocable nature of the salvation which leads to repentance.




Concluding remarks:


It is important to note that these outward manifestations are evidences of an inward work of the Holy Spirit, for without the Holy Spirit, no true repentance could take place. Paul saw the evidence of true repentance. Paul�s concluding remarks is that they �proved themselves innocent at every point�. This means that he was able to see the evidences of a true repentance in them as they were spurred on by their zeal to prove it. We see that such repentance is also profitable in that comfort is provided to the truly repentant. This is seen in Paul�s general manner towards the Corinthians as he seeks to encourage them as well as the tone of Paul�s words that Christ provides comfort to those who mourn, and even though their sin has caused them sorrow, their repentance if followed by encouragement from the comforter who brings peace in the midst of our turning.
There also appears to be a difference in humility versus humiliation in this passage. Paul sees their repentance and says in essence �it is enough�. He is not requiring them to go beyond the bounds of what Scripture requires. Paul�s primary concern is that their earnestness, their genuineness is seen by God. This is displayed in verse 12 where he says that he desires that they see their care for them is evident in the sight of God. One of the great treasures of the Gospel is that God grants pardon to us in Christ if we truly seek him in repentance. As the great work of the Holy Spirit grips us and takes hold, peace begins to reign in our life knowing, trusting, and resting in the knowledge that not only has Christ defeated death, but He has also defeated sin. It is a living in the midst of the already/not yet. Knowing that God has already justified us, he has already given His Son, our redemption has already been accomplished, His Words of Promise have already been written for our instruction, and yet, we still see through a glass darkly. We have not yet seen the fulfillment of the sanctifying work of the Spirit, Christ�s Kingdom has not yet been finally established; death while defeated has not yet been eradicated. It is the knowledge that we are living in the midst of redemptive history and God�s plans are being worked out in and through us, yes even in the midst of our sin, and His glory is displayed in our repentance.

ML - are you say to mention MB recovery program by name right NOW? I am a little confused about what you meant here.

She's saying to take ownership of the program. Don't tell her you read it somewhere, or that it is the MB plan of recovery.. Tell her it is YOUR plan for recovery and that she must comply to recover the marriage.

CV

MA, you have come this far and are throwing it all away by allowing a WAYWARD to dictate the terms of your recovery. HUGE MISTAKE!! She has no say in it! She does not get to dictate the terms of your recovery. You have been through so much, don't throw it all away now that you are at the finish line!!!

It is a huge strategic mistake to say some program told you to do this. You should be telling her: THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO RECOVER. I even gave you a script!

The problem here is that you are negotiating the recovery process with her and IT IS NOT NEGOTIABLE. NOT NEGOTIABLE. STOP NEGOTIATING WITH A FALLING DOWN DRUNK.


And NO, you are not "fully honest" with a terrorist. Honesty is for recovery. You do not tell her where you are getting your information or tell her about your spy techniques. [NEVER EVER tell her about spy techniques]

I am going to post this again. You should STOP negotiating with her and tell her: "THIS IS WHAT I WILL REQUIRE TO STAY IN THIS MARRIAGE. I AM WILLING TO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO EARN MY FORGIVENESS IF YOU DO THESE THINGS." Otherwise you don't have a marriage. You do not allow a wayward to dictate the terms of your recovery.

Yep, lay out the script I gave you. This is not negotiable. There is not one other program that I know about that restores the romantic love in marriage. Even so, your wife DOES NOT GET A SAY IN IT. This plan is designed to protect you from another affair and recover your marriage. If she doesn't want to do that, then you don't have a marriage.

Take ownership of the exposure thing. Tell her you will try to forgive her for putting you in that position.

You are getting great advice. Please continue to follow it.

Keep a ZERO tolerance on the suicide threat.

In front of your children? 100% unacceptable.I hate to see the children abused in this manner. By their own mother, no less.

Call the police immediately after the next public declaration. Tell THEM she had an affair and is now having mental health issues dealing with the fallout.

You hurt HER with exposure? She hurt herself. Now, she seems ( I do not know the extent of the home drama ) to be involving children into her situation? way. messed. up.

This needs professional intervention.

Ok, now she is trying to use GOD to make you believe you did something wrong. The Harley's are very much christians. There newest book "draw close" is a daily devotional.

She is still trying to play you and you need to stay strong.
She has no right to negotiate with you on what you need to recover.

Dr Harley says there is one reason not to be open and honest and that is personal or family health. An ongoing affair will affect your health. He said this point blank on the radio yesterday.

Yep!

OK I think I am in too deep and she knows too much. I have screwed up as she knows from the statements of friends about my "council" and now I revealed the i-net... I know she won't buy into anything else.

All she needs to do to find this thread is to search for "exposing an affair" and MB comes right up. I feel I screwed it up terribly and wasted all advice on here as I saw in her yesterday such a moving change within her soul. I can tell she is still foggy but she has opened the door back to God in her life which I knew was missing, I don't want to jeopardize that for her either. Or my own desire of healing with my wife.

The whole polygraph thing seems too out of the fold as a condition. Reminds me of Meet the Fockers. IDK she will think it way kooky. I know do not negotiate.