ITA with LTA. I didn't mean you have to start trying to POJA everything right now together. Your ww will probably get whiplash from rolling her eyes so vehemently if you start bringing up stuff like that right now. However, you can live MB principles starting today, right this minute if you haven't already. They are good to go on. They will serve you well in the future no matter what your situation winds up to be. For Instance: would your WW have enthusiastically agreed to your post on FB? No, so there's one good reason not to do it. It becomes more like IB when you look at it that way.


opt

Ok. So my WW would not agree to my blast out on facebook (which I did not send), I guess that's a good reason not to send it. Also, the fact that no amount of external pressure to do what is right or to love the one you're with, or to take another look at the man who is trying to hold the marriage together is going to hold any weight with her. That would make the exercise pointless.

On the other hand, I can tell she feels guilt about what she is doing and I think the guilt is slowing her down quite a lot. It makes her feel bad, which may not fit with Plan A, but it's given me something to hold on to.


I cornered her yesterday after a couple of days of what seemed like her trying to provoke me to feeling hopeless or angry. She said she wasn't trying to provoke me, just that things are over and it's best if I accept it, she's not going to change her mind, etc. I told her that I have to accept as a matter of faith that if I keep making the marriage a more attractive option, at some point, she's going to do the better thing.

Her argument for a long time has been that she needs a separation period before we can get back together. She told my oldest daughter yesterday that she wasn't interested in a separation any more and a divorce was certain.

When I talked to WW, she said that wasn't really how she felt, but she didn't think I'd ever really do a separation. I asked her if she thought we should be dating during the separation. She came back and said that if I was going to drag the divorce out for two years.

I got up and walked out of the room at that point, because I could not figure out how to say something nice for a while. I may have accidentally said, "How can you live with yourself?" as I walked out of the room.

When I calmed down, I came back and told her that was not acceptable. I told her that I would continue to do the right thing and wait to see some change from her.

At that point, I had an idea, and I said that "I know there is a part of you that that wants this to work out. If I could talk to just that part of you, what would it want me to do, right now?". She let down her guard a lot at that. She looked like she was afraid to let out what she was thinking and it took some urging on my part.

She said that that part of her doesn't want me to do anything. It wants me to *be* different. She said there was nothing I could do because I can't be someone else. We need to be ourselves. I told her that I can still be myself and act differently. Changing my behavior is what I'm spending all my energy on at this point. I asked what specifically would be different.

She told me that I would have to:
1) not to do that manipulative soul-sucking thing. (I have not been able to get her to describe what this is, what it looks like, when it happens. Seriously, if I'm doing anything to damage her soul or anyone else's I really do want to stop.)
2) She needs me to have a job
3) and to support the family
4) and to be reliable.

She said she needs to be able to be herself and not to have to try to ignore the things that are wrong to get by or pretend things are OK when they are not. She needs to be able to be who she is.

I took notes. It was a tender moment, but my memory of conversations is frankly not that great, and awkward or not, I was going to remember this one. She said, "It's not a todo list!". I told her that I need to understand how she feels and what her needs are and that it is a todo list to me. These are behaviors that I need to change and demonstrate change in to her, and this is the first thing I'm going to talk about when I see my therapist on Tuesday.

I already knew what it was she wanted from me, and I have been working on it. This really doesn't change my plan at all. It was just good to get her to open up and tell me what she was thinking and to try to get an in to say "I hear what you're saying, I understand what your needs are, and I am working to see that they are met." over and over in the next weeks and months.

She said that the reason she wants a separation is that she can see if I'm able to change those things without her having to be around it, waiting. She doesn't want to invest her emotions because she doesn't want to be let down again. OK, she didn't say those things, that's what I read between the lines. I stink at remembering conversation details, remember? She did say that what she wanted was for us to be able to reconnect with each other and meet each other for the first time again without our preconceptions and prejudices about one another.


Wednesday of last week, I told my wife that I'd be sleeping away from the house 6 out of 7 days (she sleeps in Saturdays, I get up with kids) for the next two weeks. I know you all think I'm stupid for doing this, but I was feeling like I was losing her attention and I wanted to do something to earn some good will.

She's actually been a giant brat since I started that. More angry outbursts at me this week than in the last month. Passion is good, right?


She's going to insist on some form of separation. Maybe this is a case where separation is a viable path to reconciliation. I think I may suggest something like what we were doing before - My stuff is at the house, and I'm there with the kids Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, and I work there during the day when she's not home, oh, and I sleep there Friday night, but the rest of the time, we're apart and she gets her "space".

Basically, that I'll do that for three weeks, then spend one week home. The four week period would have specific goals to show progress toward meeting her needs on a long-term basis. (having money today is not the issue. It's knowing that I'll have some next year.) The 4 week period after that will be the same, but with two weeks away and two home. And the next will be one week away and 3 home.

Not MB principles, right? I'm trying to adapt to the situation I have and the bed I've made.

This is how I feel when I'm calm. There is a part of me that feels that if she won't accept any terms I put in front of her, I'm ready to move back into my bed and tell her to GTFO.

I swear to god that I sit down and think to myself that I'm going to write 4 or 5 sentences. Maybe a paragraph. Or two. And before long, I've written half a book.

I'm so sorry.

"This is how I feel when I'm calm. There is a part of me that feels that if she won't accept any terms I put in front of her, I'm ready to move back into my bed and tell her to GTFO."

No, you simply move back into your bed because it's YOUR BED and you don't say anything. You have every right to be there. She has every right to be there as well, or not be there if that's what she chooses.

Her "list" looks like she has an EN of Financial Support.
Oh, and it's good that you talk to her, but I would be very wary of anything she says (it's okay to nod and agree) -- but remember she is wayward and waywards lie about everything. They just can't help it- she probably even believes what she's saying, but I would bet it's more the taker in her that wants the separation. All that blahblahblah about justifying the separation....wayward fog-talk in my view.

Anyway, you've veered quite a bit off the path of MB, ark- with moving out and with not pursuing the break up of the affair. So, it really is hard for us to help you. However, I do think you are on the right track by trying to clean up your side of the street and then see where the chips fall. That is ALWAYS a good thing.

And you're talking to an expert when it comes to really loooooooong posts, lol.

opt

I always hate to watch a train wreck.

Oh, I gotcha. You're not interested in a Marriage Builders plan. You're going with the Ark Plan. Good luck with that.

OK. What is the Marriage Builders plan at this point.

My wife finds her support from her friends, who are predominately male. I have done a lot of snooping, and they really do seem like "just friends" relationships, so there is nothing useful to expose.

My wife occasionally softens and is clearly having second thoughts but soon is noticeably upset in her "lapse of judgement" and weakness.

It's clear that I will have to fight a custody battle now.

I'm still willing to do anything to repair the marriage, which I why I keep coming back here.

What can I do? What is the plan?



My independent behavior was the primary relationship killer between us. I didn't want to let her in to my business decisions or my business finances, and I wanted my struggle with bipolar disorder to be private. After a conversation yesterday, I came to understand that she had been fighting for her needs for years, but I was blind to the fact that it was destroying our marriage. I thought it was just fighting - fighting that all couples have that they get through when they feel as strongly about each other as we do.

She was fighting and eventually gave up. I was shouting at her, "Why can't you fight now? Take any little step, or point me in the right direction!". I got upset at her over the last two days and have shouted at her, which has been counter-productive. Anyway, she said that I crushed the will to fight out of her when I wouldn't give her what she wanted all of those years.

So now she doesn't have any fight left in her.


So, I was thinking of posting this to facebook:

[Wife] and I are in the process of getting divorced. I'm fighting for this marriage as hard as I can, but it's been difficult. I've made mistakes as a husband that I regret terribly. I chose battles that were not worth winning.

I want more than anything to repair my marriage and heal my family, but [wife] no longer has the energy or the inclination to fight for it. I pray that she finds the strength somehow to fight again or at least the patience and understanding to let me show that I won't repeat the mistakes of the past.

I love her more than anything. I still feel that my will and my energy to work toward buiding a better marriage are inexhaustible. I will perservere. But I am losing hope, and it is a lonely place to be.

Ark. I cant Elaborate right now. But please don't post that.
Opt

Thanks, Opt. I like your name, by the way.

I wasn't going to until this evening when I've had more chance to think about it. I'll wait to hear from you at the very least.

okay, I still don't have much time, but I have a signal on my lap top for now. suffice it to say at this minute that by sending that post on FB you would be engaging in IB (I think that was discussed before). It is a LBer and you must eliminate that behavior. It's hard to grasp (trust me, I understand that), but just about EVERYTHING you do should be done as a JOINT operation~ with each other's consent/enthusiasm. It's a paradigm shift of considerable proportions, but you can do it. I understand it's frustrating and seems impossible, but you have to start somewhere with these things- it starts with Ark, right now.

FB is not all it's cracked up to be. I would leave it out of your marriage and your personal life in general.
opt

Ok. Right. I can see how the facebook post would be independent behavior.

So why does exposure fit in a different category? In fact, right now, trying to save my marriage is an independent behavior.

I just want her to be getting support (to fight *for* the marriage) from somewhere if she can. She doesn't talk to those people because she doesn't like being judged or pushed around. But most people who might support her don't even know we're getting divorced. The thing is a secret right now.

She's "afraid of the fallout" of letting people know.


OK. How about if I ask her if I can post it on facebook first?

Sorry Ark, I started this post last night and then got distracted and didn't get back to it...

I know it seems like a paradox --- frankly I never really understood this either, but hopefully someone more knowledgable than me can help answer this question.
I believe that you have to look at exposure not just as a way to "inform" everyone of the wayward's exploits, but more as a way to get help from those who you trust to value your marraige - in situation in which you are otherwise helpless to proceed on your own.

As for the FB thing. I think you should absolutely tell your WW exactly how you feel in an open and honest way. I don�t believe there�s any reason to share those thoughts with the world.
Oh, and don't have any expectations aobut her reactions, just let her go through whatever feelings she might have so she knows she can count on you nt to react negatively.
opt

I think I just need to get the book already. I read half of Divorce Busting by Michelle Weiner-Davis, but then lost the book. I actually yelled at my wife Saturday and Sunday before I realized I was doing more harm than good.

I want to finish that one as well.

Finish the LB book before you read anything else. I think that would help you alot ark. Again, not just in your marriage situation but for You, your kids, and everyone around you. Engaging in LB's (like IB, AO's, and DJ's - my ole faves), is plain and simple SELFISHNESS and in most cases childishh/immature. They also add sooooooo much drama to a situation that usually doesn't need it. I have a feeling you could a little less drama in your life? NO?
opt