Au contraire. There is currently a 90% employment rate and people are getting jobs. I would not quit outright, but there is no reason you can't look for a job that is not high security where she can monitor your computer.


"attempted affair" = AFFAIR. Just because you didn't consummate it, doesn't mean you didn't have an emotional affair, which is just as bad.

It is this type of slicing and dicing that is not working for you. I would lose the bullcrap rationalizations if you want to be taken seriously.


She thinks you are a fraud, which you are. WE are not. And we can tell her why you did this to her. That is very productive. You let US be the judge of what is or isn't "productive." You don't have that capability.

Please bring her here and let us talk to her. Show her this thread.

OK I'll invite her here.

Here is the timeline with more detail.

June 1999 - Just before marriage - navy buddies took me to "Cheetahs" in San Diego for a psuedo-bachelor party where the dancer put me in a chair on stage and made fun of me / danced in my face / et cetera. Was open about that to my wife.

6/26/1999 - Married.

Feb 2000 - Aug 2000 was a 6 month deployment. I remember one night all going to a strip club in Crete. Didn't hide that. She visited me on a couple port stops and we had great memories together.

Professionally, I suffered huge failures during the 2000/2001 period due to my weight issues. It basically cost me a navy career and almost cost my wings. In the end they let me finish my tour and I left in quiet disgrace at the end of 2002. Those two years were marked by separation, and alot of unhappiness professionally. In this time I abused alcohol, was angry, and our marriage alternated between really good, fun times and really bad fights. When on deployments, I watched porn. I don't remember watching it when I was home.

Jan 2002 through Dec 2004 I worked as an ROTC instructor. I hated myself for being a failure and we had a lot of marital trouble. I grabbed my wife in a fight and she left to go to a hotel for a night. I resolved to never lay a hand on her again in anger at that time and I haven't.

We had our first daughter in December 2003.

It was during this time that I joined Adult Friendfinder and eventually ended up meeting two different women in person. Nothing progressed with either one of them. I don't remember whether it was because I had second thoughts or felt guilty or didn't have any chemistry or whatever, but I met each one only once and didn't get involved physically. Had no further contact.

Sometime in 2004, I patronized a prostitute that I found off the Eros website.

I went to strip clubs twice during this time period that I can remember - once when I was on a training thing with my ROTC unit (I hid this one) and then a second incident that is a huge one in our marriage - where I went with my buddy and left my wife and the baby with his wife, against her wishes, to go to a strip club. At the time I felt entitled to "blow off steam" or whatever, and trampled her feelings for my own selfish desires. I felt that she was trying to control me so I rebelled against that. It is a dark and shameful and damaging event in our marriage.

In the end of 2004 I separated from active duty and we moved to Maryland.

the period Jan 2004 - Oct 2005 contained good times and bad, we had a second child, our son, and fought over the stresses of life. I don't remember acting out sexually in any way except I'm sure I was watching porn occasionally.

I pursued a flirty relationship with a woman at work, mostly email. Hung out with her on two occasions just talking. Nothing ever progressed physically. I don't consider it even at a level of an Emotional Affair. Just not appropriate.

I also occasionally fantasized about hiring an escort again but never acted on it.

October 2006 I transferred to southern CA.

July 2008 we had our third child.

Sometime in 2008 there was a strange sexual thing where I sought something out that was a little more "experimental" in nature that I have fully detailed to my wife but would rather not go into here.

There was probably regular porn viewing also. I didn't ever feel compelled to watch porn when I was getting it from my wife. (Not to say I'm blaming her for me having to watch porn - though i may have thought that at the time.)

In early 2009 I joined facebook. Ugh.

(BTW our third child was the first time my wife breastfed. it was for a year, july 2008 - july 2009ish. What I know NOW is that breastfeeding totally kills sex drive and estrogen levels and makes it unpleasurable to have sex. At the time I didn't know that and just felt rejected all the time.)

In march or so of 2009 the poking started with my former high school girlfriend. Let's call her OW1. This is the woman that took my virginity at age 17 and is associated with a very happy, successful time in my life.

It quickly progressed to flirty exchanges, then an erotic story, then talk of meeting.

I met her in person on four short business trips to the east coast from April through August of 2009. I didn't feel like I loved her but she told me she loved me and I said it back to her because I didn't want to admit that I was using her to feel good. I still don't believe that I loved her but that question is one that gave me trouble on the polygraph. so I don't know. It's complicated and I'm trying to sort it out.

During the same summer i had had a few exchanges back and forth with an old friend/neighbor (OW2) from the last place we lived in MD. She had recently gotten divorced and was telling me about life and trying a sugar baby website and talking about her dysfunctions with sex. It triggered that need in me to feel like a man by showing her what I could do for her. I sent her an erotic story and hinted at meeting but it never went anywhere. My wife discovered an undeleted message with OW2 and colluded with her to get me to say that I wanted to meet her on a business trip. I failed the test and said exactly that.

So that's when we had what I'll call "fake" D-Day, Sept 11 2009.

After she found out about OW2 online stuff she told me "The only thing keeping me from filing for divorce right now is the fact that you never actually slept with anyone." I disclosed to my wife everything I had ever done EXCEPT the prostitute and OW1. I talked to my pastor and he and his wife agreed that I could fix myself without telling her the whole truth. I know now that that was a HUGE mistake and probably cost me the chance to fix things. But my wife is the most honest person that ever lived and hides nothing. I believed her when she said she'd leave if I had actually slept with someone.

I resolved to be the man I needed to be and to get help to figure out why I did this. My wife said there would be no room for mistakes. Not even for porn.

I ended the affair with OW1.

I dove into "Every Man's Battle" and asked close friends (men) to keep me accountable.

I saw a therapist but he didn't really help me figure out what was my problem. He worked on exterior issues like communication and attitude and stuff when I needed to dig into me.

We had a healing time and a period of reconciliation with great intimacy and great sex and got pregnant with our fourth.

Feb 12, 2010 we lost our fourth, a girl, at 18 weeks and went through the birth and cremation and recovery from that together. It brought us closer.

Summer 2010 we got pregnant again with our fifth. My wife was on bed rest for 6 or 8 weeks in feb/march 2011. At some point I slipped and watched porn. I did it a handful of times through that period . I didn't feel i could tell her.

In march 2009 I chatted with OW1 on facebook. It was nothing inappropriate that I can recall, but obviously HUGELY playing with fire. My wife saw a few snippets of it but suspected something because I had deleted most of it.

The next day we had our last baby girl and the chat issue got buried.

My wife had a relatively easy birth and recovery, but then almost bled out later from some clots and had to have a D&C and recovered from that.

After that it has been breastfeeding - again, what I know now I didn't know then but felt very rejected and unwanted. She had sex with me once every week or two, sometimes as long as 3 weeks in between. But it was obvious she was just doing it to placate me.

Then the middle of August 2011 the poking started with the other high school friend, OW3. There was an erotic story, talk about sex, and a desire to meet. Never got a chance to act on it but I thought about it.

In september 2011 my wife and I started going to see a new counselor after talking about finding one for the last two years. we finally did find a great one. She is awesome. I dialed back the thing with OW3 in the last few weeks before D-Day.

D-Day was Saturday October 15, 2011.

I have told my wife everything I did. I made her dig for some of the hurtful details, because i wasn't sure if it would be helpful or hurtful for her but over that first week everything came out.

I know now that it was a huge mistake to think I could continue to hide the prostitute and the affair with OW1. The lies made it impossible to really figure myself out. The shame and guilt of continually lying ate away at me.

I didn't mean to rationalize it, just distinguish it from the physical affair.

For the first time in years, I'm NOT a fraud. I don't ever want to BE a fraud again. That's why I'm here. If you can tell her why I did it to her then I'd be really interested to hear that. I'm spending 4 hours a week in individual therapy trying to figure out why. I have some pretty good indications regarding depression and EN's but whatever you see in me would be helpful to know.

You can save your money and your time because we can tell you why.


In short, you had affairs because you have poor boundaries around women. Please pay the receptionist on your way out.

Going to therapy to try and find out why you cheat is a good money maker for the therapist, but it is a distraction and a waste of your time.

No wonder you need the help of this forum.

The timeline you spell out is a transcript of complete misery.

I just want you to be aware that every action was felt acutely by your wife AT THE TIME. The secrecy did not protect her. She would have felt every stab of the knife in her back. She just did not know what was behind it.

If you think you were unhappy, (while completely aware of what was going on and in control being able to stop it) - just think what kind of rollercoaster ride your wife was holding on to.

I just want to make this point, because while recovery is not impossible, it will take HERCULEAN efforts to make her feel safe after all this.

I understand that, Indiegirl. Thanks.

@Melody: It's a little more complex than that - figuring out for myself why I have an anger problem, depression, lacking empathy - I need to be healthy if I'm going to be the husband and father I want to be. The anger issue alone has sent my wife close to leaving me.

Good. The basic issue I see here is that you are wasting your time going to therapy when you could be focusing on saving your marriage. Your therapy is a distraction from the real problem. While you do that, your marriage dies on the vine.


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Listen to Mel, Schlag - feelings follow actions. Yours and your BWs

You don't need to know WHY in order to change. You need to make a decision to change. If you have anger issues, you can attend anger management classes, but you are wasting your time going to counseling to find out why you cheated. That is a distraction from the real problem. Don't get me wrong, I agree it is fun and winsome to go to a counselor and flap your lips about nothing, but you don't have time for that. Your marriage is on life support and needs immediate attention.

You need to focus on your marriage and stop the needless distractions if you want to save your marriage.

Your serial cheating is much more likely to destroy your marriage. And if you don't stop messing around with these distractions you won't have a marriage to save.

This will not keep you safe because today this is only a reaction to the situation you are caught up in. This above statement is a sign of guilt and not indicative of an action.

The goal is to get you protecting your wife with actions. That is the only way to make her safe.

What actions can you give her to make her feel safe? In the beginning she will not feel safe with anything you do, so you will need to take extra precaution while at work.

My thought with work is if you hold a clearance you are not allowed on any social sites. Didn't you know they are the #1 spot for espionage?

Tell your IT to put special software on your computer. They have it and if you need to go to a site for your job they either have to unlock it for you, or you can use a colleague who can access it for you.

Actions Sir!!!

Thank you for all that and I see your point, but her comment in our joint counseling (suggested by the counselor) is that "she's been living with crazy for so long she doesn't know up from down or who I am or who she is". And that she needs to figure that out before we can even think about fixing our marriage or examining emotional needs.

Schlag

Would you agree that the following statement is true?

Statement:

Who we are is determined by our actions.

True or not true?

Pepper: True.

I used to think it was about what is "in your heart" but that was *edit*. That's why I was always so angry at the world not being fair or not understanding my true intent. I always felt misunderstood by people.

You talk about ow1 and ow's 2 and 3, but in that exchange I count at least 7ow and one 'experiment of non-disclosed nature'.

You really have some work to do on being honest.

Schlag, coming to this forum will help her know which way is up or down. Maybe ask her to come here for a week or two and then you can consider therapy after that.

You probably were misunderstood by people. Certainly by your wife. If you arent completely and radically honest with people. Theyre at sea without a map.

That is silly, of course you know who you are and who she is. If you don't, then pull out your drivers license and read the name. THAT is who you are.

This is why I want your wife to come here. You are wasting good time with a whole lot of psychobabble and feel good distractions rather than working on your marriage.

All she needs to know is HOW to turn this marriage around and if you are willing to make those changes. Going off to counseling to "find yourself" in an exercise in futility and a distraction from the real problem.

Your marriage will not recover wasting valuable time going to counselors to "find yourself." Please send her here. Hopefully she has some sense.

She is pretty angry right now so I'm not sure she'll want to hear things like "hopefully she has more sense"

I have sent her the link to this thread and told her you all thought she should be here but I don't know what she'll do. She doesn't trust me and doesn't see how she could ever stay with me right now. She gives indications that she cares about EPs but then says it doesn't matter anymore. She doesn't know what she wants to do. She wants me to leave but then she wants me to sit there and tell her everything I talked about in therapy so she can see if i'm getting "fixed".

I still don't know how many "affairs" or relationships outside of the marriage you have had and I can't figure it out (easily) by reading what you posted above.

It would be helpful if you could instead list them out clearly, in chronological order, and you can give a little information for each affair such as how you communicated with each other (FB, email, at work, etc) how long the affair was and when the last date of NC was and when your BW's dday was for each one as well.

EX
#1, 2009, 3 mos, fb affair with old hs girlfriend, NC 9/2009 and BW's dday was 9/2011

Then we could ask you about each one if we need more info. Please list every one. If you even have to wonder if it should be listed, then it probably should...