Well, it's been awhile and a lot has happened so I'll just give the cliff's notes update. We've been working hard to spend the UA time and meet each others needs. It's been hard and there have been some AO on both our parts, but I'm starting to come out of withdrawal. She is truely being person 4 above, and this is proving to be more difficult than her not meeting my needs. I don't trust it. With all the lies both during and before the affair, there is some block preventing me from allowing myself to feel close to her. Subconciously I think I'm just waiting for her to rip my heart out again. I'm hoping this is just going to take time, but I'm scared that it's just to much. If anyone has suggestions I'm more than happy to listen.

NMP
I am in much the same situation as you. My husband is doing everything I could ask right now to prove himself, and I consider ourselves in recovery. It has been about 3 months no contact for us as far as I know. However, I still don't completely trust him yet, and probably won't for quite sometime. You have every right not to trust her yet. It is still so fresh for you. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It keeps you on your toes. But you must give her the chance.

I do believe that it is a matter of time. One cannot shake all those lies immediately. My marriage is better now than it has ever been, but I still get those doubts and butterflies in the gut when I think of the lies or I am triggered.

Keep up the hard work. It will take a long time to be over such devastation. If she is serious about just compensation, she will understand and continue to prove it to you. Everytime I doubt something, and it proves to be nothing, I am one step (albeit a baby step) closer to completely trusting again. Good luck to you.

The not trusting what she is doing I understand and can deal with pretty easily (she is being transparent). The trust I'm talking about is more of trusting her motivations (probably a DJ).

As fall out from her affair, I have discovered that she has lied to me our entire relationship (and it actually was a problem for her before we met). Because of this (and the affair) I see her as very selfish and manipulative, and every time she does something for just compensation I instantly think of 10 reasons to justify how she is doing it for selfish motivations and not because she cares for me.

On top of this, OM had to throw her under the bus for the A to end. I know this is common, but it sure doesn't help me feel like allowing myself to be close to her again. I feel like her backup plan so whenever I start feeling close to her, thoughts of her affair (mind movies, lies, things she said to me, etc.) come rushing back and are incredibly overwhelming. I really think this is some self preservation my subconscious is doing to not get hurt by her again, and I really don't know if I can get over it.

How do I know when to give up and just say it is a deal breaker for me?

What MB recovery programme are you following? Are you doing the at home/private forum one? Counselling with the Harleys? Something else?

Are you following the MB plan to restore the romantic love?

How much UA time are you getting? Are you both practising radical honesty and POJA? Meeting ENs?

The reason I ask is because some of what youre saying doesnt sound like the MB plan.

For example:


This sound a bit like you want totally unselfish and unconditional love and the MB lovebank model doesnt operate on that basis.

MB requires each person to vocally acknowledge they have needs, that their motivations ARE partly selfish.

Is it selfish for her to realise her marriage is good for her? Yeah. Was it selfish of you to forgive the A in the hope that you could have an even better marriage than before? Yes

You are both being 'selfish' because you have both nominated each other as the best people for the job of meeting your respective needs.

However when your love banks rise above a certain balance you will care for each others feelings as deeply as if they were your own and doing things for each other becomes effortless.

This requires time - UA time in which to met needs.



Have you both done the radical honesty questionnaire? Does she display radical honesy in regards to her PAST actions and feelings, CURRENT actions and feelings and FUTURE plans? Is she honest about things which make her look bad? Does she take responsibility for mistakes? Tell her that the more frank and revealing she is in the questionanire the better. She needs to make a real effort with her honesty for you to get past this.



Do you think she is lying to you about her motivations? About her long term plans? If so, you should ask for proof and reassurance in the form of a poly or post nup. There is no need for you to trust blindly. Ask for whatever you need to feel safe.



What do you think these selfish motivations are? Do you think it is purely financail i.e. she has a better lifestyle with you or do you think she is just hoping to get her own needs met in turn?



You say 'when' not 'if' - are you getting your ENs met or just having a hard time with the resentment?

Youve been cheated on, so you have the 'get out of the marriage free' card. You can go whenever you want.

For me personally though I would have to know I had tried everything. The MB plan has saved marriages from affairs and if you follow the recovery advice to the letter, then will know you have tried everything.

We are working through the books, and are doing our best to follow the plan.20+ hours. We have both cut back on our other commitments and are working hard to spend the most time together as possible.I am, and she seems to be.She seems to have some difficulty with this one (and maybe I do to).Yes, this is what most of our effort is going into.We have not filled out the radical honesty questionnaire, but have spent a lot of time discussing both past and present actions and feelings. This is how I discovered all of the lies throughout our marriage and before. That being said, I have no idea if she is being radically honest with anything (she has admitted to lies before, but just enough to get me to stop asking questions). She has, however, willfully admitted to a few things that make her look bad for the first time in our relationship. After OM threw her under the bus I absolutely was the best candidate to meet her needs, so maybe it's not a matter of questioning her motivations as much as who she is. Can she actually care for someone else? Feel empathy? Withhold her needs to not hurt someone else (not indefinitely, I'm more than happy to meet her needs the best that I can)? I see her as willing to do whatever to whoever to get her needs met. I truly believe I was willing to meet her needs before (and during) her affair, but she did not make them known. How can I trust her to effectively communicate them in the future? I guess maybe it all comes down to that I don't feel like I know who she is. I've been with her for 10 years and feel like it has all been lies. In the last year, it has all blown up and I found out about all the lies and the affair, and now that is how I see her.I absolutely have a lot of resentment. I was willing to meet her needs, but she had an affair instead. This is where I'm starting to struggle. I don't want my marriage to end, but I question if too much damage has been done for me to ever get back to the in love feeling. For me, I can see trying everything to mean spending the rest of my life trying to get there, and if it is a lost cause then I don't want that for myself or my wife.

Ok I am hoping more people with recovery experience will show up but a few things -



A lot of people on here talk about how exhausting and disheartening recovery is. It seems that way for you. You are going through SAA but havent done the questionaire? How come? I would do it. Someone (I think Mel Lane) said doing getting an accountability coach on here was the 'fastest horse' because they keep you on track and make you do the work on time. If youre just talking and not following a plan, you may be floundering and could do with some help.



If you dont have a coach, come on here for POJA advice...it sounds like you need some advice on following MB.





NEVER take the word of a wayward. you require proof. Either she gives you all her account statements and phone bills for the year, or you get a poly, or whatever other proof you require. She needs to step up and you need to ask it of her.



You ALWAYS WERE!!!! She is so lucky to have her addiction walk away from her so she can be free....but she needs to reassure you she will never go to another crack house ever again with PROOF



This is where I will let those who have achieved this speak. The in love feeling comes from a high love bank balance. You wont even let her start paying in until she makes you feel safe though. Kind of like a bank needing to see ID before they let you open an account. Which is smart. You dont know what to believe right now thats all.

Great post Indie! And yes, recovery is very hard but very possible with a whole lot of work. Once a couple learns how to marriage build properly though, it doesn't feel like work. It becomes a way of life. I wish the MB program was mandatory for anyone who marries. The divorce rate would drop dramatically and Divorce Court would probably become a thing of the past.

I don't want to T/J oldmitt so I'm going to bring this to my thread.

This is becoming a sticking point for me. AD was one of the main ENs that OM was meeting. He was her boss and spent all day telling her how great of a job she was doing, how well she was handling situations, etc. and as a result she threw herself into her work. Now her new job is very stressful, has longer hours and a longer commute, so when she gets home she is exhausted and has little energy to meet my needs. When I admire the things she does do, she tells me it is over the top and she feels guilty for not doing more. I try and admire the effort she is putting into her new job, but honestly I don't because it's a huge trigger for me.

She is definitely not filling my love bank and with the fallout of the A I'm really struggling to admire her. I agree with WPG that if her LB$ is full she will be happy to meet my needs (even with the lack of energy), but how do I fill her LB$ without being able to meet one of her biggest ENs?

Also as a side note, after d-day I made several comments similar to the "evil" and "your not worth it" that your BH said to you WPG. With AD being high on her list these were major LB$ withdrawals that still haunt my WW.

Her finding another job could be an option. I know there are financial things to consider, but sounds like longer hours and longer commute are cutting into your UA time, which is critical to restoring and maintaining romantic love in a M.

For her to say things like your efforts at AD are "over the top" and she "feels guilty b/c she is not doing more," maybe it is not so much a lack of energy but maybe a manifestation of depression and guilt? She doesn't feel like she can ever do enough to make up for what she did, maybe? I don't know if that is the case, but I have all those thoughts as well as a FWW, that I'll never be able to do enough, love him enough, etc to overcome what I did and cause him to fall in love with me again. helpfordad's FWW struggles with this feeling of not being good enough, maybe reading his thread (In Recovery) could be helpful. Orrrr...also possible she is still having some withdrawal and bouts with fogginess. Your final D-Day was in July, so it hasn't been very long for either of you in recovery.


OK, what are her other top ENs? Again, UA time is key, and you should focus on the 5 intimate ENs - not only AD, but AF, C, RC and SF. What can you do together that is fun? H and I used to do a lot of hiking together. This time of year, find a corn maze and spend the afternoon going through it together. Go to a farmer's market and look at the fall produce, have a picnic, ride bikes, cook a meal together, play a board game, etc...have you done the Recreational Activity questionnaire?

Is she willing to go through Dr. H's books and workbooks with you? What about the online program, or coaching? Even one session with Jennifer or Steve could give you some ideas on how to get her more on board with the program. Or send an email to Dr. H and try to get on the radio show.


Yes...there were other things he said and wrote as well. They do hurt, but you know, it's not like I didn't deserve what he said. I was evil when I was WW. I wasn't worth it to anyone as a WW. I think if you look around the boards, you will see many, many BS's who have said these sorts of things to their WS's. It hurts worse for me to hear that now...I guess Jennifer coached me to go Plan A over a year ago, and that's where I've been ever since. Obviously I didn't do everything exactly right, but I learned, and felt like I got better at meeting his needs and being the wife he deserved to have, so when he told me at the end of this past July that I "wasn't worth it," it crushed a lot of the hope I had inside me. I'm stubborn in my own way, though, and I still haven't completely given up, but it is hard some days to keep fighting.

If you have decided she is worth it, then I'd suggest sitting down with her and letting her know that. Look her in the eyes, take her hand, and tell her that you value your M and you value her, and that together, you want to create the kind of marriage that you both want.

It does cut into UA time, but we don't have kids, so we have still been able to get the 20+ hours. We have discussed changing jobs, but are waiting to see if it will get better as she gets used to the new job. She has only been there a few months.

First, if this is true, would she not try? Would she not want to do better? Second, can she ever do enough to make up for what she did? In my opinion, NO; but this is where forgiveness and grace come in.

There is definitely some aspect of fogginess there still. I won't get into details, but some of the things she says tell me this is true to some extent.

Her ENs are:
1)Conversation
2)Admiration
3)Recreational Companionship
4)Honesty
5)Domestic Support
6)Family Support
7)Financial Support
8)Affection
9)Physical Attractiveness
10)Sexual Fulfillment

I am learning to meet all of these better and have made huge progress on some, but AD is a huge hole and at 2 is an important one that I know I'm not meeting. We have never had a problem having fun together. We get along great, have similar interests, and are a great team. We are and probably have been best friends since we met. Which is great, but also leads to my issue - we are friends, roommates, or teammates at best in my mind. There is no desire from her to be close physically.
My ENs are:
1)Sexual Fulfillment
2)Affection
3)Recreational Companionship
4)Physical Attractiveness
5)Admiration
6)Honesty
7)Family Support
8)Domestic Support
9)Conversation
10)Financial Support

I crave physical touch and she could care less about it. This has always been lacking in our marriage (it came to a sudden stop after the wedding), and I was content with the little I was getting and the other needs she was meeting. But I will not be content with it anymore.

If she is truly depressed, she may need medication. stretch's WW on SAA is a case study in that. stretch has been doing all the heavy lifting in recovery, with his W struggling with depression and a "what's the point" attitude.

No, your W, just like me, can never do enough to "make up" for what we did, but we can offer just compensation, remorse and repentance, and commit to meeting our BH's needs. She may earn your forgiveness, she may not. That is your decision to make, as it is my BH's decision as to whether or not to forgive me.

But I'll tell you, I screwed up mightily with recovery until I found MB. I learned that I needed to pull my weight, and H's weight - in R, until he gets on board. The primary task must be to heal the BS, and your W needs to do all she can to ensure that you are healing.



Have you communicated your needs, and their priorities to each other? The trick is to come up with ways you would like your needs met - for example, you crave physical touch, guessing as part of fulfillment of your EN of AF. To her: "Honey, I'd love if if you'd come sit by me on the couch and snuggle." Go for a walk after dinner, say "Sweetheart, I'd love it if we could hold hands/I could put my arm around you," etc. You know she has C as a #1 need. Try to start a conversation with her - anything - ask her about her day, tell her about a funny story you saw on the web to start, ask her questions and try to get her involved in the conversation. Conversations don't always have to be delving into deep relationship issues - think about things she is interested in.

If you don't know exactly how your spouse best likes their needs being met (that goes for you or for her), you might be banging all around in the dark and not getting the max LB$ deposits for your buck!

I'm tired of doing the heavy lifting. I've been working my side of the marriage since before I knew about the A. Now that the affair is over it almost seems like she thinks that's enough from her side.

We have both filled out the EN questionnaires. If I initiate AF she is usually OK with it, but that doesn't seem to meet my need (to me this is meeting her need for AF). I want to feel like she wants to be close to me (I know I can't make her want something, but it would be nice). If I tell her I want her to initiate something I get: "I gave you a hug and kiss when I got home from work" (really it is a hug she would give any friend and a peck). If I push it further it turns into "You don't love me for who I am" and "I don't have to justify acting the way I do". These are things from her IC, but are the epitome of the freeloader attitude (she only really has this attitude with physical contact).

All of these issues are amplified when it comes to SF to the point that I can't even initiate this. I try to, and get shot down, rinse and repeat until it turns into a fight. Then a day or two later she will initiate.

Whether it is AF or SF she is more than aware of what I want, but she almost refuses to meet them. I know she is capable, she did a wonderful job before we were married, but I feel like now she gives me just enough to keep me around.

I think I do a pretty good job meeting her needs (except for AD, still looking for tips on this), and am constantly asking if there are things I can do better.

I looked up helpfordad's thread, and it will take me awhile to read through that, but I will start. Do you have any suggestions on where in the thread some helpful posts might be?

nomore, I'd say probably the last, hmmmm, month or two of HFD's thread, where he talks specifically about his FWW's remorse and shame. Hopefully he'll see this and chime in!

ALthough the more I read of your thread, I'm not so sure I was right in that initial assessment. If my H had a high need for AF and SF, and was giving me the chance, I'd be knocking his socks off every opportunity I got. When I do get the chance, I am more than willing, and I continue to try and meet whatever needs he allows me to. And I keep on holding out branches, hoping that he'll grab on.

Although when I am depressed, as I have been lately after Dad's death, it is harder to focus on meeting someone else's needs, but even still I know I have to keep trying b/c it is that important!

She should be so eternally grateful for the gift you gave her, of a second chance, that she should be doing all she can to meet your needs. What is it in tst's signature line? "Meeting my wife's ENs is my eternal thank you" or something to that effect?

And if she's getting the statements you quoted above from IC, that IC does not sound at all like a friend to your M.

I don't know...I'm no expert on recovery at all, as I have not been able to recover my own M, but I just don't get it when a WS gets a second chance, why wouldn't they do all they could do to restore the love of their BS?

Why not try emailing the radio show? It would be interesting to get Dr. H's take on things. I was on twice, and it was great to talk to them...although Dr. H made a prediction in my case that I am not entirely convinced will come to pass, but I am willing to wait and see.

Would your W come here and post?

Have you given any though into the online program? That is most likely your best chance for recovery, ATM

It may just be that she just doesn't get how important it is. She knows it is at the top of my list, but I don't think it makes sense to her. It is so low on her list that she doesn't think twice about it, until it blows up to a fight and she has some time to think about it. Then she makes an effort, but it doesn't sustain (its not consistent enough to make a new habit).
This is part of the reason I believe there is still some fog there. I don't think she realizes how big of a deal it is.
Several times during her affair (but before I knew about it) she told me, "you'll never leave me." I think at some level she believes this and doesn't think she needs to put effort in. I am a very loyal person, but everyone has their limits.
Yes and no, my wife has always been a people pleaser. She would do things for me that she didn't want to and lie to me about things I wouldn't like, basically the opposite of PORH. As a result she built up a lot of resentment which is part of what lead to her affair. The statements above are not direct quotes from her IC but come from discussions they've had (ex. "You need to be yourself so he can love you for who you are" from the IC to her, becomes "You don't love me for who I am" from her to me). These statements are meant for her to be true to herself which I see as good for the marriage, but they obviously can be turned around and used against the marriage.
She probably would if I asked her to, and sat there and watched her, and maybe even hinted at what to post. Basically, it's up to me to initiate and sustain any work on our marriage.
I'm a very private/reserved person and the thought of emailing the radio show seems like putting myself out there to much.
I will look into this and discuss it with my W.

So, I've spent some time reading on HFD's thread, and I see hints of similarities between our wives. My W, however, is not nearly as open about it. She is very avoidant of any negative thoughts or feelings and just shuts down with these thoughts. Just this morning she said she was feeling depressed. I asked if she wanted to talk about it, and she responded that she didn't even know why she was depressed. Her being able to tell me she was depressed is a definite improvement, but it still bothers me that she can't tell me why.

ConstantProcess, this got me thinking. I think a lot of my issues (I'm reluctant to be vulnerable to my WW so many LB$ deposits go wasted) are that my wife's avoidance scares the crap out of me. I think it's a Dr. Phil quote "you can't fix what you don't acknowledge". She has been working hard in IC to work through some of this, and I see some improvements but it is definitely still there.

I think there is still some fog there, too. She will say something about how the OM was selfish and used her, but then will tell me I need to go do things for myself because that's something she admires. WTF? Like building the marriage I want isn't something for myself? Or having a wife that loves me isn't something for myself? Does she really want me to be a more self centered bas*ard like OM?

As I typed this out it occurred to me that maybe this is how she is expressing that she doesn't feel worthy. I guess I need to have an O&H conversation with her.

I think my M is at an impasse. We have been having a lot of O&H conversation and my WW basically refuses to meet my needs for AF and SF unless she is "in love" with me. However, she will not fall "in love" with me without my meeting her need for AD. I'm finding it almost impossible to meet this need following her A and her refusal to meet my top 2 needs. This is my summary because she refuses to follow MB (at least the portion that means she has to put in effort). On top of this UA time is dropping recently because she is not seeing results and is starting to find other things to occupy her time.

I'm getting to the point where I need to get away. I see her as completely selfish (freeloader or at best a renter). We've been "working" on our marriage for over a year (she was in an A for 9 months of that) and we've purchased a ton of books to help us "work on our marriage." Everyone she purchased, including ones this past weekend, has been about getting what you want from life and making your own life happy. Everyone I purchased was about working on our relationship (many before I found MB, but then all of the MB books). It's becoming very clear that she is not a team player and wants to put no effort into the M.

I brought up the topic of plan B with her this weekend, and she had a total melt down. I told her it's not what I wanted but I couldn't continue to live like this forever. She agreed to move out after the holiday (logistically, it makes way more sense for her to move out) She actually thinks it will make me see what I'll be missing.

I know a lot of this (and other things) makes it seem like the A is still going (and it maybe), but in all of my digging (keylogger, GPS, VAR, phone records, snooping, etc.) I can't find anything. Either way, plan B is the next step until she agrees to live by MB.

NMP,

I fall into the camp that says that if there are no kids and there is infidelity you should run in the opposite direction and never look back.

There is nothing you have with your WW that can�t be had with another woman and with a clean slate.

You have no kids. Why deal with the a$$pain of recovery when you have nothing but a broken marriage and one that was based on lies from the start?

Part of this whole ordeal is self respect and regaining that or getting it if you�ve never had it. I don�t think infidelity is worth forgiving unless there�s kids in the picture. Otherwise you can find another mate just as easily and without the baggage of recovery.

That�s my humble opinion. There�s lots of folks here who feel otherwise and there�s lots of resistance to the idea I present.

I say you�ve given it the old college try. There�s nothing you have with this woman that you can�t have with someone else and have better, especially if you take all you�ve learned from this ordeal and be really careful about who you date from now on. That�s the God honest truth.

There�s no kids. Love is not enough.

My gut says that you�ve been with this woman since you�ve been very young and don�t know any better. Trust me when I tell you that there are tons of great women out there. Find one with some sense of morals and selflessness. Find one who will approach you as an equal and who will want you in her life and not NEED you in her life. There�s a big difference between the two.

I�ll back off from opinining if you don�t like what I have to say, but I�m simply telling you to value YOU. You�ve given her a chance. She�s still not doing what needs to be done to meet some very modest requests on your part.

You asked when you determine when enough is enough. Well, it�s basically when there�s nothing to save. You have nothing to save. If your blinders are off to who she truly is, then what is there to save?

htld,

Yup, it's taken me most of this past year to get to a place where I could leave.
I don't know what you consider very young, but I was definitely immature and inexperienced (and I would say I still am in some ways). If I'm honest that's part of the attraction to staying, the growing together, the getting through difficult times together, etc., but ultimately she needs to be open to the maturing, too.
I can't have the last 10 years with someone new, share all of those experiences, go through those stages of life, etc.
I just keep thinking to the years were she was everything I could've asked for, and even though she was lying to me I can't believe it was all lies.
I know, it's just hard to give up. In general, I just don't fail, but I said it early in my thread that if it came to this I would go straight to plan D, and right now I'm working to get the house ready to sell (this is the only major sticking point if we are to D). After the house sells, D papers will follow shortly.


I'm open to hearing anyone's opinions (I actually appreciate you taking the time to respond), and I will take it for what it is, your opinion. Ultimately it is me that must make the decision and live with the results.

I was wondering how you approached the subject of your wife moving out was it her idea your idea or was it mutual and if it was Your decision how did your wife react. I ask because much like you I feel very apathetic about my Wife and have since I returned home.I was hoping that you could explain how you came to the conclusion that your wife should leave the home (insofar as you should begin Plan B) and if you're headed towards divorce how are you dealing with the guilt of "abandoning" your family.