It is not punishment to give her time to demonstrate her changes. She should be grateful for the opportunity. You don't want to allow her to come back unless and until she has done a good job demonstrating her changes. One week is not nearly enough time. Any half baked alcoholic can endure a couple of weeks of good behavior just to get their spouse off her back.

If she won't agree to PROVE her changes over 3 months of time then I don't believe she can do it. That will make me think she is just talking a whole lot of crap to get you off her back and back to your usual enabling status.

She should be willing to GO TO ANY LENGTH TO MAKE THIS RIGHT. If I were her sponsor and she told me it was "punishment" to have to prove herself for 3 months, I would tell her to go fly a kite, that she doesn't deserve a family then. If you and your kids aren't worth 3 months of demonstrated good behavior, then she isn't serious.

You need to set the bar high for her and make her PROVE she has changed. If you set the bar too low, you will just have more of the same.

Make her PROVE it, LLL.

Her words are meaningless. Talk is cheap with an alcoholic. They will say anything to get what they want because they are selfish, professional liars. Don't bet your sanity on the WORD of an alcoholic. That would be a huge mistake.

Only go by her ACTIONS. Give her a chance to DEMONSTRATE actions that back up her TALK.

Yeah, pretty much.

What's important is that YOU understand the difference between a boundary and a demand.

Demand: You have to stop drinking! You have to stay out of bars! You have to go NC with the OM! You have to move!

Boundary: I am only willing to remain married to a wife who never drinks, who stays out of bars, and who is committed to NC for life with the OM. I am only willing to try and recover if we have moved.

See the difference? A demand tries to tell someone else what to do. A boundary states what types of people or behaviors *you* will allow in your *own* life.

Both demands and boundaries are resented by a 'holic of any kind, whether a waywardholic, and alcoholic, or both. A demand they can fight against, but not a boundary, because with a boundary you are only controlling yourself.

That helps thanks and I understand what you are saying now.

So I think I have been messing everything up again. I have not been maintaining NC with my wife and this has mostly been my fault. It seemed weird to maintain NC while she was saying and doing all of the right things. As she put it, how is she supposed to show me that she supposed to prove to me that she is committed to working on it if we have no contact. Anyways this is mostly my fault as time has gone on I have had more and more contact to where now I see her and talk to every day. Now that I have messed this up I am not sure what to do. If I go back to NC then that is going to be really confusing to her and not to mention hard on my. If I let her come back now after such a short time then everything will probably go back to "normal". I don't know if I should start "dating" her or trying to see her less or start working on MB stuff with her. She has been reading articles on MB and is wanting to start working through that. I know I have messed up and not followed the advice given, she was willing to NC with me but I have been the one to loosen the boundaries and now I am not sure how to salvage things from here.

My instincts tells me I should start working through the MB material with her and be very careful how fast we go as far as letting her back into my life. My guess is my instincts are probably all messed up right now. So fire away, I can take it. <puts on flak jacket>.

LLL, is she going to AA? Has she committed to never drink again? Does she have a sponsor? Did she end her affair?

If that is the case, there is no reason you can't play this by ear. But the first second she starts drinking again or sees the OM, you should go dark and shut this down.

You should still make her PROVE her changes for 3 months.

I IMPLORE you not to let her come back for a few months. And to MOVE out of that town. If you stay in that town, you will be facing an on again, off again affair for a very long time.

She has been going to AA and she says she is committed to not drinking. She went to another meeting last night and she says she is committed to it. She is going to a special 2 hour meeting tomorrow night where they discuss the 12 steps. It is the last of a 4 week program I think, I don't know enough about the program yet so I don't understand it well.

She sent a no contact letter, about a week and a half ago. There has been some fall-out either from that and some more exposure. She forwarded me an email she received from him where he was upset with her for giving his name to the secretary and people at work so they can block his calls. She seems to be a bit scared of him right now and how he will/is reacting to the exposure. Only time will tell if she continues NC I guess...this is the hard part for me.

She has agreed to move away and work through the MB program. She has attempted to put up obstacles to him contacting her at work but I have not outlined other EPs I would like in place to make sure it is very difficult for her to fall back into contact with him.

Even though I am reluctant to uproot my family and they are not happy about it I do see that as a necessity. It will take time since we are in the middle renovating our house and will need to complete that before we can rent/sell it. She has been looking at houses in the other town so I think she has adjusted to the idea. My kids are another story.

This is going to be really hard but then none of this has been easy.

You need to VERIFY she is at meetings even it means putting a GPS on her car. [and you do need to do this!] Alcoholics are notorious for lying about going to meetings and then going out and doing what they want. I would have her get the local meeting schedule which shows the times and the places and she can show you her schedule. You should be verifying her attendence at these meetings.

AA is not a 4 week program. It is a forever program.

Is the 2 hour meeting tomorrow night an open meeting? Can you go? If not, where is it so you can confirm her whereabouts?

She should find a home group and get a sponsor. And of course, get the address and times of the home group and the name and # of her sponsor.

p.s. nothing she tells you is TRUE unless it has been personally verified by you. Alcoholics are professional liars and you cannot trust a word she tells you.

I have verified that she has gone to meetings a couple of times including last night. I have the meeting schedule at least for the regular meetings.

Oh I understand that. If I understood correctly there is a special set of meetings that covers the 12 steps in 4 weeks. I was not implying that she thought she would be done after that.

I will ask her about this.


Ok

LLL, I want to also applaud you for doing such a great job on your plan. I know it is a long hard road for you and your kids. But I really think you are on the right track. This plan gives you the best chance of saving your marriage and protecting you and the kids from more of her destructive behavior.

PERFECT. You and I are on the same page. You are doing good and thinking of these things.

I have a job where AA meets twice a week in my building. These are regular meetings. I have never seen any special 4 week program meetings. I have interacted with these people as they come and go.

So it has been almost 4 months in our latest attempt at recovery. I am still trying to rebuild and recover with my wife and she is trying as well. She has been in AA for about 4 months now and as far as I know has had no contact with OM. She is trying to be more accountable for her time and more understanding.
I am still struggling with what to do though. She had originally agreed to follow MB program but that has slowly declined over time. We barely have time to spend with each other and it doesn't usually happen unless I am diligent about it.
Our eldest son is causing us a huge amount of stress and consumes much of our free time trying to manage him but I know we still need to work on our relationship if we have any hope.
One of the most difficult things for me is that she still does not seem to understand that she/we are at risk if we don't work on changing our relationship to be much better then it was before. I think she still does not really believe that she has any responsiblity for her affair other then our relationship was in a bad place before. I don't know if this will ever change for her and it is no good me trying to make her see how her behavior contributed. When I talk about how I want a better relationship and how we need to work at it she takes this as whining. I try not to bring it up very often and try to be as positive as I can be under the circumstances. I just want to have a better relationship and I want to be wanted...I want all of this pain to be worthwhile. I am not sure if I am expecting too much or if I just have to accept that she is this way. I am not sure what to do other then just keep working on myself and try to keep moving forward.

LLL,

Did you allow her to come home? Seems as though you did and she isn't fully committed to recovery of your M. Although going through AA and being sober may be part of the reason, can't handle both. I believe this is why Melody advised that she not come back until she is well into sobriety.

Did you move yet? From the sounds of it you don't have much of a plan for recovery, thus, you aren't going to get much of a recovery. Have you read the books here? If not, order them today!

ba

Yes I allowed her to come home and no we have not moved yet. I know I have not followed MLs advice on this but I am trying to do what is right for my family. I know that I have not done everything exactly as others would do but all I can do now is move forward from here.
Yes I have and have read SAA, HNHN and LB as well as many other books. She has read SAA and some of the online MB literature but has not read anything about this for quite awhile. She still says she wants to but doesn't think it is necessary and thinks things are just fine. When I bring it up it seems like I am nagging and I get frustrated with that.
She has been going to AA for four months now and I think this has helped her personally in many ways. With AA, stress from our eldest son and her job she doesn't seem to have a lot left to deal with my needs. She is trying and gets frustrated when I want more from her and our relationship.

LLL,
Our sitch's sound similar, although I need to go back & read ur thread again. My Fww has been sober for 6 months, today. In fact , just left for a meeting, so I can completely understand your issues. If it's any comfort to you, we have honestly just now started truly working the MB principles, it was literally just too much his first 3-4 months to stay sober AND work on us, at least in the manner that I would have preferred. I just kept telling myself the same thing as AA's say...."one day at a time"
Not sure if u have joined al-anon, but I would wholeheartedly urge you to try it. Has been a huge part of my recovery.
Good luck

LLL, if you can't get her on board, I would try counseling with Steve Harley or his sister, Dr Chlmers, to try and get your wife on board. Otherwise, you are going to be stuck with a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage and she will likely have another affair. Keep in mind she is going to AA meetings, where men troll for women. She will have plenty of opportunity to have another affair there if you haven't done anything to recover your marriage.

Another option is to sign up for the MB course where you get assigned a coach and have daily access to Dr Harley. Dr Harley is very experienced with alcoholics AND sick marriages. He used to run a chain of treatment centers.

The Harleys are very persuasive and they might be able to sell her on the prospect of creating romantic love in your marriage.

If your goal is to stay together, then you probably should keep marital recovery on the front burner and not allow her to blow that off. That is not "positive" for anyone or anything. And most certainly is not best for your family. If you don't recover, your marriage is not going to last long anyway. You have nothing to lose.

Thanks for the reply ML.

I understand the risk of another affair. When I mention this to her she thinks I am being rediculous and can't imagine it ever happening again. I will talk to her about counseling with MB and the Harley's I have looked into this before.

The AA group she goes to is woman's only group and we have talked about this before.

I agree that I need to keep working at it if I want it to work. My IC has said the same thing that I need to go all in if I want to have any chance at it working out. We have been trying but I want more then she has been able to give and it is frustrating to be the one to always bring it up and always be pushing on it. I know it's petty and childish but I want her to work at it...I want her to pursue me for a change. I think she feels that she is working at it and can't do any more right now and I am just pushing too hard. In some ways she is right, I want our life to be better and I want to work at it so I know it will have the best chance of being better.

By the way she has been very diligent with AA. She missed having a glass of wine in the evening at first especially on days when life was stressful but she has not mentioned anything like that in a few months.

I will look into counseling with MB and/or the Harley's.

Has anyone had success using a local MC and working with them on the MB principles?

I would get a counseling session for yourself with Steve Harley and have him guide you into getting her on the phone with him. Let HIM sell her on the benefits of having a great marriage with you. She is not going to be interested unless she is sold on a perceived benefit. So let him get her on board and THEN work with a local counselor on implementing MB concepts.

You have about one shot to make this work and you shouldn't waste it on an untried counselor. Once you get her motivated, then you won't have such an issue.

The whole reason she is not interested is because she is not in love. Steve can sell her on that aspect.