Tough,

Hilltopper should only consider Plan B under the direct counsel of Dr. Harley, not this board. You are pushing for something that Dr. Harley doesn't usually advise men to do.

Yes, unconditional love is not the goal. But Dr. Harley doesn't advise men to leave in order to escape that unconditional love. Hilltopper needs to be concentrating on winning his wife back. He is not approaching any limit here. Plan B is a dangerous distraction in this case.

I listened to the radio call with Markos. What I got from it is that men may just need to be prepared to not have their emotional needs met for a long time, because it is worse to force a reluctant wife to participate in something. Dr. Harley said one should operate on a presumption of "good faith" that the reluctant spouse does want to meet your needs. What was unstated was that it may take a long time for this to actually manifest, particularly if the wife is (a) quite different from the husband emotionally (b) feeling trapped and (c) reacting to AOs or other LBs.

Of course, separation and divorce are hardly easy alternatives.

I have never once advised him to leave. Plan B isn't about leaving or divorce, and never had I said for him to leave his home. I also said he has plenty of time still left in Plan A. I was discussing that Plan B could be an option down the road because he deserves to have his needs met as well.

Who are we to tell this man how long he should go or if his love bank is done. We aren't in that position. We are in the process of marriage building, and a one-sided marriage does nobody any good. He will know when his love bank is nearing zero. Creating a marriage that is unconditional love doesn't do him any good either.

What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!

Please don't put words in my mouth folks. I never told him to leave or think about leaving. I suggested he look at his life if this doesn't turn around. What does he want for his life?

He can only control himself. This site has never been saving all marriages. The last thing is a man completely drained of his love. Will his boundaries stick?

One thing to mention is that they have a recently new born. Once the baby gets a bit older .. things WILL get easier. If he can just keep doing a good plan A and stop LB'ing ... I am sure his wife would respond in a better manner once she is not exasperated with over touching by the baby.

Hill .. how did that "talk" go? I know your wife cried .. but was it productive? Hopefully you avoided LB'ing behaviour and rationally conversed about whatever the convo was about.

Praying for you two..

MNG

This is how you can get things back on track.

Be very careful here Tough. Remember, affairs happen not because someone's ENs aren't being met, but because they have weak boundaries around members of the opposite sex, allowing that person to meet ENs which only their spouse should be meeting.

I see the main problem here is that Grace is most likely in a state of withdrawal about her marriage, and she will need to be brought back to intimacy. It CAN be done.

I think we also need to be very careful about saying that when the infant is older, things will get better. That is not always the case. But it does bring up other factors that should be considered. Grace is most likely exhausted, and the hormone shifting is harder on some.

I think that the right thing for Hill to do is exactly what Markos has stated. Also, getting on the phone with the Harleys would do wonders for this marriage.

I know that Scotty - look down and you will see me discuss his bounaries.

When your love bank goes low you are at an increased risk for an affair. That is what I am stating.

Plan B IS leaving. If he were to go to Plan B, meaning he cut off all contact with her whatsoever, she will most definitely feel like he left her.

And I am saying that Dr. Harley does not advise Plan B for a man who is not in an affair situation.

It's not US telling him that. It's Dr. HARLEY.

Nobody's arguing with that.

That is not why Dr. Harley recommends Plan B. He actually says that separation puts a man more at risk for an affair.

The solution to affair proofing is boundaries. Plan B has nothing to do with it.

Plan B is essentially leaving. Plan B isn't a tool to save marriages. It is a tool to protect the betrayed spouse in an affair situation. Dr. Harley says he sometimes recommends that a neglected woman separate and go to Plan B. He RARELY recommends that for a neglected man.

If you disagree with Dr. Harley's position on this, might I recommend you talk it over with him before continuing to suggest to a neglected man (NOT a BS) to consider Plan B?


If they don't stick, it won't be because of Grace.

I completely disagree Prisca. Dr. Harley does suggest after an extended timeframe usually two years or more for husbands, a spouse can demonstrate their needs should be met or Plan B, a husband can go into Plan B. He has said it before, and talked about it with Steve. The main goal of his program is to protect the lovebank. There isn't any other goal of MB except to make sure the lovebank stays at a certain level.

Why does a husband have to get into a neglected situation in the first place? How many BW are on SAA because a husband was neglected by them and had an affair? Thousands!!!

You are correct his boundaries will need to be air tight. Who wants to even get themselves into that state in the first place? I know I haven't had my needs met in 15 months. I am a house plant today because I do not want to risk anything. I tell you the first man that gives me attention, may send me over the edge. It is dangerous to get your lovebank to that level. Then temptation is hard to resist.

The goal is to maintain his love for his wife. Dr. Harley has never ever been about creating unconditional love. That is exactly what happens after years of neglect by a wife.

The rarity of a wife neglecting her husband after two years exist. With a good Plan A Hill can and will likely win her over. In the case he cannot - he should explain to her well in advance, I need these needs met by you. If that doesn't happen then I will look at a Plan B option.

A neglected man is at a great risk of an affair. He will have to air tight his boundaries. You know how difficult that is? Out on the SAA forum you read BH's who struggle constantly with their boundaries by not getting their needs met.

Plan B is discussed by Dr. Harley for neglect. It just so happens it is usually the case the wife is neglected. It can also be the case the husband is neglected.

Prisca I have every right to discuss Plan B with any neglected spouse. I am not going against Dr. Harley. I made it crystal clear to go at least two years or more in Plan a for a husband, or whatever Hill can do. What good does it do him if by the end of two years he has no love?

Then what happens at the end of two years and his LB is in the red and he doesn't even want to consider Plan B, just Plan D.

Yes - separation risks an affair and divorce. What does it matter if he has no more love for his wife?

Dr. Harley explains that in his unconditional love article. Which was based on a wife, but addressed to a neglected spouse.

Please stop trying to negate the advice I provide. This forum is about giving readers advice based on Dr. Harley, and I am basing my advice on how I understand the lovebank, affairs, and Plan B. I do not feel I am going against his principles, or in any means giving Hill false advice.

My only goal is to protect the love he has for his wife. I have no other motive. If Hill doesn't like the advice I give then he can use his own judgment and make his own decisions.

Talk went well. She said she likes the new me, but that she got so used to doing her own thing without me because I was never interested in her. In other words she gave up on me long, long ago. That and she is incredibly worn out every with the kids and everything else that concerns her day to day. I was quite honest with her in my letter on how I feel. I'm quite scared to be honest that Plan B might have to come into play when I know that it shouldn't have to. The "reaching her emotions" part hit home and I'm trying to do that each day. Thanks for the prayers.

No she won't.

Plan A is perfection Prisca? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just truly asking. I am a man, we are all human, and I don't think Dr Harley would suggest that perfection is the only way to conduct Plan A?

If you read through our thread from beginning to end you'd find that I give and need affection more than she, she needs admiration more than I, etc. I was awful to her early on when we first started MB. I think she is having a hard time trusting that I won't be that guy again and I understand that. With that being said, I think a year is about all I can give before I move to Plan B.

Kerala,

Yes time is difficult when you are the person feeling neglect. As I said before I think she can't trust that I'm not gonna revert back to my old ways and it is my job to show her that I'm not.

Newborn just turned 1.

Dr. Harley would tell you that if you are Lovebusting, you are not doing Plan A. You do not have to be perfect to avoid abusing your wife.

You can listen to the criticism of your current Plan A and go and do something constructive to better yourself and your marriage, or you can mope about how nobody's perfect.

One is taking action. The other will get you nowhere.

Your choice.

Picking and chosing the parts one likes and not doing the parts one does not is not doing plan A.

Part WE, whatever seems to be getting you the results you want?

I think this is what your wife said you need to focus on. Are you making any progress in this direction? I bring it up because I think it could really help. And it shows a crack of willingness on her part.

She may have given up, but making love bank deposits will turn that around.

Ask Prisca how many times she has given up on me!

Anyway, your wife has given you the clue to how to get things moving forward again: start planning stuff (within parameters she is comfortable with). Plan, invite, don't demand, stay calm. Be patient. Leave the door open behind her for her to run back out if she gets an inkling that she is trapped or that you might not be safe or something.


If this is the pressing problem in her life, then the man she falls in love with will be the man who becomes involved and concerned with those problems. He will express empathy, be her confidante and person she can vent to, will always be calm even when those problems affect him emotionally, too, and will offer to assist in solutions to problems, without trying to drag her into such solutions. And he'll be that man even if she's disrespectful and abusive and blames him for all of it! And when she falls in love with that man ... everything will change.

Be that man.

Concrete suggestions of things you can DO:

* Plan time for you and your wife.
* Become involved in talking about and working on her problems with her
* Give Dr. Harley another call