I did read the basic concepts, I was just trying to understand the distinction of controlling vs. "controlling". I think I do now - it is not controlling to ask your spouse to cease and desist if that activity has a negative emotional impact on you, regardless of the activity.

In other words, it is only "controlling" (in the bad sense) if you are making the request for reasons other than being less than content with the activity?

Whether you call them "abuse" or not, they would both be Independent Behavior, and if you want to have a good marriage, all independent behavior is going to have to go, because it makes you incompatible.

Informing your spouse of independent behavior is not "controlling" in the sense of enslaving a person; it's providing information for them about how they can be compatible with you as your spouse.

Are you smoking at her expense?
Is she watching Chinese TV at your expense?

No, that's not the difference. The question is, are you trying to get somebody to do what you want, or are you trying to get them to stop doing something that has a negative effect on you.

Technically I don't think Dr. Harley refers to independent behavior as "abusive," but I would certainly regard it as abusive if somebody smoked pot in my presence. Similarly, a wife might regard it as abusive if her husband engages in the independent behavior of driving faster than she feels is safe when she is in the car. In both cases you are subjecting somebody to something against their will. That is controlling in and of itself, wouldn't you agree? Asking somebody to not force you into something like that is not "controlling" in any bad sense. It's asking somebody to stop controlling you!

Okay I think I understand better. Neither smoking nor watching Chinese TV are necessarily abusive, but they could be if done with disregard to the others feelings. Furthermore, neither request is controlling because both activities genuinely get under the other person's skin.

In California it is still an infraction for under an ounce. Previous to January 2011, it was a misdemeanor.
That doesn't sound legal to me.

Right. The question, the real question is, are you willing to follow the policy of joint agreement: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

When you are married, everything you do affects your spouse. Every dollar you spend, everything you ingest. To have a good marriage, you have to build a lifestyle that both of you can be enthusiastic about.

I know it 'matters' whether something is legal or not, but you're missing the point that it is something your wife does not agree with.

I don't think I provided the whole story about the abortion from an unbiased perspective.

My wife and I have been arguing about smoking for years, she would ask me to quit and I would either say "no way" or say yes then fall back to my vice anyway. I should have treated her beter in retrospect.

Her concerns about my smoking while she was pregnant were: "You say you're going to quit, but are you really going to follow through??" And if I didn't actually quit, would we be arguing in front of our child for years and not provide a stable and happy home for them to grow up in?

When I think about it from that perspective it does make some sense. I didn't really think that way at the time because I WAS dedicated to quitting smoking. I should have just quit when we discovered she was pregnant, it might have saved our child's life.

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I would like to ask eveyone here to please direct attention to the real issue at hand: How can my wife and I reconcile and fix our broken marriage.

The suggestion to read Dr Harley's book is a good one, but what else can we do? I am fully willing to be accountable, are there devices that would provide accountability? I have nothing to hide and I want to back that up with hard evidence so she feels safe again.

What else can I do to help her feel safe, to feel that the risk she is taking is worth it, that our marriage is worth giving another chance?

Do these things and then let her know you did them. Dont ask her what would help putting the issue on her head, you take charge and show her you are willing to do anything to make her feel safe.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2374198#Post2374198

Remember, this is still her choice. You cant make her save your marriage but even if you wind up divorced, you can still do these things to help her heal.

Regretful, pardon me for bringing up the issue after you asked that it be dropped. But I can relate very much to your life and I would like you know how things COULD turn out for you:

Three years before now WH and I were married, I became pregnant. I had recently divorced and had a young son, who my ex husband wanted custody of very badly. I did not see a future with my then boyfriend, as he was younger than me and I just did not think he would be parent worthy. My main concern at the time was that my ex husband would try to use the pregnancy to get custody of our son. I was VERY SCARED. So, I made an appointment to have "the procedure" done, and my then boyfriend took me. We never talked about it for the longest time. Time went on, and guess what? We got married. Somewhere through the years, during explosive fights, he started sharing with me how that experience so long ago affected him. It seems that while I was laying on the table, sobbing as my two babies were vacuumed from my body, he was in the waiting room sobbing also. He told me that the date was forever etched in his mind, and on that day he always became very depressed. Over the years his accusing became worse and worse until apparently, 17 years later, it was too much to bear.


Please, please give this a lot of thought. I know you are hurting right now, and it may be hard to make decisions. But you yourself said you saw this as a gift of God, and with feelings like that, dont bury them just because you are hurting and alone right now. BTW, you have shown a massive amount of strength by quitting smoking.

Maybe a t/j, but possibly relevant...

Regretful, when I read Izzy's post, it brought tears to my eyes. See, I had a very similar experience. When my H and I were dating - we'd been together not quite 2 years - we got pregnant. I was scheduled to take the GRE and planned to go to grad school, and I believed I never wanted children. Part of it was selfishness, part of it was being convinced I was not maternal material. Right around my 23rd birthday, I terminated the pregnancy.

Well, H and I stayed together and about a year later, he asked me to marry him. I'd put the abortion somewhere in the back of my mind, and didn't think about it. H and I didn't talk about it. After we'd been married a couple of years, I decided that I did want children. We tried for almost a year to get pregnant. I went through several rounds of clomid, countless ultrasounds, ovulation predictor kits, you get the idea. In my head, I was convinced that my inability to get pregnant was God's punishment on me for having an abortion. Eventually we did conceive, and went on to have 2 beautiful girls.

We still never discussed the abortion, until after my adultery, and my H opened up to me about things in his past that broke my heart. I think he would have married me when we found out I was pregnant all those years ago, and we could have raised our child together, and I think back now how selfish I was, putting my life, graduate school, whatever, above the life of my child.

It's one of those things in my life I would change if I had the power to do so. After reading your thread, I wonder if my H ever felt the same way towards me over what I did, and wonder if there's more to overcome than my adultery...and if so, maybe recovery truly is impossible for us.

Anyway, I tell you this - even though you had asked the subject be dropped - only to say I simply can't imagine how your W would not be affected by it...but if she ever does become pregnant with a child she wants, and feels that child move inside her, when she hears her baby's heartbeat for the first time or sees an ultrasound, when the baby inside her responds to her voice, well, for me, I needed to grieve for the miracle that I destroyed, the miracle I'd never truly allowed myself to contemplate or appreciate until it was too late. And maybe it's a silly thought, but if there is a heaven, if there is a God, I hope that when my father got there, that he got to hold his grandchild...he got so much joy out of being a grandfather during his life, that it comforts me, a little, to think that they might be together.

Sorry if that's a t/j...I wish you the best and will be following your sitch...

Please delete. The judgements about the abortion and A and our ability to heal are NOT helping US to achieve what WE WANT. WE WANT to reconcile and heal DESPITE NOT HAVING KIDS OR ANYTHING ELSE TO TIE US TOGETHER. It is OUR LOVE for one another that is the reason for wanting to reconcile.

Again, mods, please delete. The judgements are impairing us from doing what WE WANT. Thanks.

Hit the notify button and ask. They don't read everything just what is brought to there attention.

How can "judgements" impair you from doing what you want? You asked for opinions and got them. You don't have to accept them. They cannot stop you doing what you want.

People are saying we should give up when we want to reconcile and people are judging my wife for her decision without knowing her or me. I told my wife I was posting here(the policy of radical honesty) and when she saw the HARSH judgements against her it struck a chord. We don't want to feel like there is no hope because people on the net say there isn't.

We want to work things out. People are saying we should consider splitting, but that's now what we want advice about.

Regretful, just because someone gives you advice you don't like, does not mean you have to take it. Take what you need and leave the rest. As far as the harsh judgments about abortion, well, what is wrong with that? Many people find abortion to be a very harsh action; surely that comes as no surprise?

I hope you stay and try to work out your marriage problems. You will get lots of help here.

I do see what you mean, regretful. I have read the posts describing experiences from years ago again, and it does rather seem as if you are being advised that you will never get over your wife's deeply regrettable independent behaviour in having an abortion, and that your hurt will get worse to the point that you marriage will crumble some day.

I think that when you post on a board, you need to accept that you might get posts that you'd rather not receive. I think you need to be able to put them in context.

The responses years later that were posted here were the responses of those posters to the experiences that they went through. There is nothing to say that they apply to you, or that they will apply to you at some date in the future. (I'm talking about the abortion contributing to the failed marriage, in particular.) The feelings you have years down the line might be similar and they might not. Nobody knows. There is no certainty that you marriage will eventually break down over this, any more than it will survive.

The one thing we do all know here is that using the MB programme in future will give your marriage the best chance of survival. There must be a full recovery from the affair, following the guidelines laid down by Dr Harley, and there must be no more IB by either of you - whether over major issues or minor ones.

My thinking was that all the harsh comments about abortion were intending to express sympathy with you for your feelings.

But you have chosen to continue the relationship despite the abortion, so I regard it as a closed issue.

The much more serious issue, to me (and I think to all of us as members of a Marriage Building website), is what you can do to restore your marriage, as compensation to your victim (your wife) for your crime (your affair).

You've been given a lot of stuff to read, and to do. Do you have a todo list? I suggest you reread this entire thread and take note of everything that it has been suggested that you do, and every question that has been asked of you, put them all on a list, then go through and do or answer each one. These tasks are vitally important for restoring your marriage; don't miss them because you and your wife got all emotional when abortion was mentioned.

In my personal experience, the posts that made me wince the most were the ones that helped the most. Don't run away from those.