LTL, what you are "seeing" are your wife's poor boundaries around men. That is why it bothers you. You don't need to see it in other people to justify that you feel wrong about the way your wife behaves.

Have you read the material on this site? What brought you here? Maybe you could start your own thread so we can help you. If it's not about affairs, you can start a thread in the MB101 forum, or another one that more suits your circumstances.

Scotland, you're right. What I am seeing does bother me, but I'm not sure if it's based on my own insecurity and feeling that I don't measure up to these other men, or if my wife actually has boundary issues. We are in our sixties and my wife's demeanor seems to change around men in their twenties and thirties. My wife is more extroverted than me and I don't want to do a DJ on her friendliness. (She is friendly to other people too besides young men.) I don't suspect her of an EA or PA, and the reason I asked indiegirl was to get an idea of what people consider flirting vs friendliness.

Thanks for the suggestion to move to another forum. At the moment it's a bothersome issue and probably not worthy of starting another thread. Indiegirl's post just reminded me of women behaving flirty.

Geez Indie, when you said kick in the teeth I didn't think it was literal, lol!

A shame that you had to return to that. Waywards sure know how to take the glow off the tan huh?

Before you left on the holiday I thought to myself about warning you about Egyptian men and how persistent they can be. But it sounds as though you learned a valuable lesson.

I was chaperoned everywhere with my husband the two times I went, and still got admirers with husband actually puffing up and me usually having to calm him down at the audacity of some of them. Cultural differences, sure, but also I saw some of the brazen behaviour of female tourists and guess some of the men have learned that persistency pays off!

I am having a different experience about boundaries. Whilst married I have always had high boundaries with men. I don't want to get involved with anyone until after divorce (and still not sure even then as I might need more time). But I have started to think about how on earth will I lower the boundaries? They are such a reflex, I must come across like Fort Knox! Actually getting someone to ask me out on a date is going to take some work, cause when anyone shows an interest my wall goes up...

Sorry to T/J yet again, your experience prompted me to share some of mine. And glad to hear from you again!

I hadnt been to Egypt before but I have been to other muslim countries and of course men and women dont chit chat with each other there.
Had I been in a souk or market I would have behaved very differently, not even making eye contact. Of course a resort uniform shouldnt make any difference to that. I was flabbergasted when I was asked out on a date the next day and I am sure my mother wanted to shake me for not seeing the obvious.



I have been here, where I felt I was practically biting off men's heads for asking me the time. Being cheated on makes you very wary and suspicious of everyone and everything.

But then I found myself in situation where I felt flattered, and I liked it.

I would just say not to make any assumptions about your feelings as they change daily.

Not that I regret in any way not dating a waiter! But it would be lovely to go out on a date. To have someone funny and interesting and handsome show an interest in me.

I cant do that obviously. Even if the divorce was through, I am still getting upset. It would be like signing up for a run with a broken ankle.

But I can see other people going out for runs and I am beginning to get claustrophobic.

The couples on holiday, all loved up, were torture, pure torture.

I just wish I was through this and getting on with my life, one way or the other. But you cant just will a broken ankle healed.

Oh you two, I remember that time all too well.

I remember seeing couples embrace, or kiss and it sent daggers through my heart, now, not so much. I missed it. I missed being loved. I still miss it, but not in the same degree.

Caracal, I dunno if you have read my thread(and Indie, I am gonna T/J slightly here, sorry hun). When I first married my WH, I was certain that this would be it for me. My grandmother has never dated anyone after my grandfather had an affair and she left. That was about 40 years ago. And her sister never dated after her young husband died back home in Italy, that was over 50 years ago. I figured that I would be like them. I wouldn't date anyone after my WH(meaning if we were to D, or he died). I couldn't even kiss another man in a dream. I would stop him and say, "I am married." and then I would wake up. I didn't even look at other men as something more than a way I would look at a woman. My friends thought I was crazy. I now understand that I was a buyer in my marriage, and I wasn't looking for anything different.

Well, these last 2 years have changed me. I am now changing from being a buyer, to becoming a renter. I can now see the possibility of dating someone, in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I yearn for companionship. I wish I were loved and cared for. Firstly, I am married still, so dating is not gonna happen, and secondly, as Indie said, I am still hurting. It will be a long while before a man were to enter my life. But for the first time, in almost 20 years, I am starting to notice men, but I keep it at a distance.

I know how easy it would be to let someone in, let them meet ENs and then WHAM-O I am TOAST. Those boundaries are meant to protect me, but when I don't need protecting anymore, they'll come down.

You two are both relatively early in your Plan B. remember, recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. You'll get there.

Indie, take care of that Taker in other ways, and make sure those boundaries are up tight.

I am a bit like this in some ways and think I might have to stop it though, You just cant talk to men the way you would to women - as closely, as relaxed or as intimately. I dont. But Im not being wary enough either if that makes sense.

I had another chat with mum today and asked her if I had been embarassing. She said not at all, that my behaviour would have been fine at home. She said also that I had 'given them the brush off' at one point in a way an english guy would have understood perfectly, (snorted in derision, shook my head and walked away) but because I hadnt been totally blunt, it had just sailed over their heads. She said she was just warning me and not to take it to heart.

However, I think I am right to take it to heart. I need to wake up a bit. English men might be more subtle, but that isnt going to stop ENs getting met in a more subtle way.



Yes indeedy. I had forgotten how much I like admiration. Usually my obstinacy keeps me safe. I dont like being pushed or hassled, so the pushy one wasnt a temptation. The one who was pleasant, though, that hit home a bit. Scared me and reminded me I need to be more careful.

I dont think i should be having lively discussions, with anyone other than women for the present time. Im too wounded and cant be trusted.

Oh I am having a bit of a facebook dilemma too. I saw on an update of a mutual friend of mine and softlads, a reference to softlad.

I hid the updates of mutual friends for a while, because although he was blocked, people would speak to him on the updates of others so I could see what seemed to be missing posts and then someone would go, 'yes I agree softlad'

Even though Ive since hidden their updates, theres a news feed on the right of the page. They still show up on there.

Today, one of SLs friends said he had mega news and I know he and his wife have been trying IVF, so stupidly I clicked on it.

I saw he had got a new job and one of the first posts said: 'It seems congratulations are in order for you both - when do you go to manilla softlad?'

So now I have been picking that one over. I dont even want to mention it to my family, as I know its been hard for them to keep their lips buttoned about softlad. If I say I know a bit, they might tell me the rest....

Still I dont really know everything. He's been wittering on forever about getting a job abroad so as to prove the affair I exposed is untrue. Guess he still really cares more about her reputation, his, or both than to have an open relationship with her.

I dont care though. Not my business at present.

I think it will have to do with the maturity of the men you talk to, and the KISA reflex of them also, which is high in most men

Even the best of us still tend towards protection

The ENs being filled are best left to professionals, the clergy, God, and people like Dr Hs staff

To deny the void that is left is a setup IMHO, and like Scotty and others, there is good support to be latched onto, to fill those places.

You sound great and Scotty as usual, great post

I would say that from now on, you don't click on mutual friends FB pages.

I have my MIL and SIL hidden, and I would need to actually click on their pages to see what they are saying. I ignore the right hand column. My WH is not even friends with anyone I am friends with, but my SIL had me tagged in pics with WH in them(apologizing later, and explaining that it was because she was tagging me in my boys pics). That's when I set it so I couldn't see what she was writing.

I�m going to give it a month before I give credence to this statement but � I think I�m done.

Back to the old routine with work today. I think I have post holiday blues big time. I also think my house kind of drags me down a bit. Maybe I should redecorate so it is my place, instead of the marital home.

In spite of these obvious moodkillers, though, I really think Im done. I don�t think I can ever get over the resentment of being left to dangle like this, for months, to heal on my own and just limp on in whatever way I can manage. Im not even angry with him for it, I just think he�s pathetic. I am at the point where I cannot recall one good thing about him.

So what does �being done� mean? Plan FU? Nope don�t want to see his sorry face under any circumstances. Dating? God, im not going into that battleground with my head half off and my heart minced.

I suppose it will make little difference, but I really think I am done.

Dear Indie,

It does sound like you are done. Everyone has different timelines, so it is what it is. Also, sounds like it is holding you back from moving on.

What are your next steps?

ba

There isnt anything to be done. Plus I would like to live with this feeling for a while to see how permanent/temporary it is.

I just.... think its really sad, but I would rather not let him back into my life. Not if he is willing to let me suffer for this length of time. Why that is worse than cheating, I dont know but somehow it is.

Goodness girl.
My thoughts on being done.

There is no done.

Proclamations just are to convince ourselves that we are at a certain place of no return, but, who knows.......

I feel its best to think there is probably no chance for reconciling since we have great respect for real love to behave and have our back (and the wayward didn't) but be open to the possibility that we don't need to definitely know the future in regards to how we will feel.

I like to think that any proclamation is just shooting ourselves in the foot and putting ourselves in a corner to behave.

Live. Laugh. Love.

Remove your soul from the drama and just be.

Proclaim to us but don't think proclamations to your in real life friends and family need to be made.

I hope that makes sense. It is working for me.

Oh no. Like I said, it has yet to pass any test of permanence.

Its just that others must have been here.

Maybe I need to route out that 'when do you know you are 'done'' thread.

There must be WSs who come back too late. No one can stay in limbo forever...

i think softlad may already be too late.

Yup, softlad may be too late.
You don't need to know without a doubt whether he is or not.
You just need to live and keep going through things and
be okay either way.

If he did come back, a lot would depend on how he came back and what juncture you were at and whether he fit in that in any way or not.

I have had feelings like this at times throughout my Plan B.

I also know that there will come a time when it will be permanent. I am not there yet(since even typing that made me cringe). Sigh.

I would say that you should go through you steps, don't be too concerned with if you are going to be done or not right now.

You are doing the right things to heal yourself and get ready for the next phase in your life. So don't worry if you are done with Softlad or not right now. Just deal with the reality you have in front of you. Which right now is a life without Softlad.

I'll second that! Going through D Day alone... I know no D Day is "pleasant" (ok, understatement of the year!) but it would have been nice to have the one responsible for the agony there to comfort me. Actually, scrap that, it would have just been nice for him to have to see the agony. And to help pick up the pieces. When I remember what I endured, I think there is no way he should get a second chance.

But I also agree with reading and scotland. There is no point dwelling on it because even if we come to a decision, it could all change in a heartbeat. I know I can't predict what my response would be if WH showed up remoreseful. It depends where I am at with my life, and whether he convinces me he is worth it.

I remember reading SMB's thread, and she was very much "done" at times. Look where her and HPB are now.

I do agree though, that the resentment as time goes on would make recovery that much harder. Our WH's would likely have a much more difficult time convincing us to attempt recovery. We have had time to keep raising that bar.

Just took some mail to my neighbour, softlad's relative. I knew going in it was a bad idea. I had considered just chucking the mail out, but there was some very important looking stuff there, like one letter from the DVLA.

I told her I had been away for a week and he should really have changed his mailing address by now. I told her it was nearly six months and that in future things would be going in the bin.

She told be he had been there the night before and that she really must tell me some things.

I know I should have just walked out, but I said to her I didnt want to hear anything and she sort of said ok and made me some tea, - before spilling her guts.

I'm afraid to say I got quite upset and she apologised but the damage was done.

Apparently he is telling people he believes I dont really want him back.

He told her he worries about me and that he had noticed one of my tyres had changed, he was worried Id had a blow out

He was adamant he hadnt had an affair, and had her believing this.

He told her was off to work abroad and 'surely when Indie finds out she will know I am not seeing anyone, if I am going away'

She asked would I sit down with him and talk amicably with him and I said no.

I told her about the Plan B letter, (I just called it a love letter) and I said it clearly outlined the way home and that a better relationship would be waiting for him there.

She was clearly shocked and said she wished she had known that, and apologised for upsetting me.

She said they had told him he must stop seeing skanko, and he came out with some garbage that 'he had promised DF when he agreed to be a godfather that he would look after his family'

I snorted when I heard that. How is he going to do that abroad? He was one of six godfathers (have you ever heard the like?) because skanko likes to be as popular as possible. And she wanted to undermine her h's oldest friend.

Oh and he never saw the children when DF was alive because he hated their mother and it was mutual.

Apparently he said that about his godfather promise in front of a few relatives. His uncle - lets call him Steve - said 'But what about the promises you made to Indie?!'

(Steve is a good lad - no nonsense!)

So anyway I told her I wasnt interested in words, only actions and she did agree with me to be fair to her.

Then I came home and wept like a little girl. (20 mins ago)

Im all back to being bouncy now though. Thats encouraging. How much stronger I must be.

C'est la vie
such is life

You learned a couple things.

Don't take mail over there and you never know what will lead to getting worked up into a sobbing mess but one must simply bounce back from the experience.

Um yeah, Im not done.

Feel sick and nervous today. This is what comes of letting people speak to me of him.

The rest of his mail goes in the bin!

God bless Dr H and the wisdom of Plan B. Every day would have been like this without it.

This was no peek into his life like the FB feed was. This was a concerted effort by one of his relatives to do the best by one of her own.

She was trying to get me to lower my standards and to disbelieve the evidence of my own eyes.

She is going throguh a separation and knows nothing about her abusive and estranged h's life. She admitted this without a hint of irony. She also said "Oh Ive upset you, dont tell anyone Ive spoken to you like this will you?" Crying, I thought 'Why do stuff if you ashamed for it to be known?!"

I guess blood is thicker than water.