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Your first defense against deceit is your conscience.
That's why the ADD and memory lapses don't add up to the magnitude of harm you've done to your marriage.
The truth of the matter is that your conscience has a voice. You had to stifle that voice that shouted at you at first. You strangled your conscience to near death. That is your first task - resurrect your conscience.
If you need to work with a minister, fine.
Once you allow your conscience to have a voice again, you WILL feel and remember EVERY little violation and the pain that goes with it. You will have to have the courage to face that pain because it was self-inflicted. You chose that pain. Amy did not choose it. So once you've reconnected with your conscience, part of the pain you will feel is the excruciating pain of remorse - from the violation of an innocent.
That is the pain we know you are not feeling - because you would not be talking about ADD. You would be focused on different things. I've seen that turning point.
You're not there yet.
Keep working at it.
Find your conscience and you will find your memory. Every single shameful detail. If you have the courage. Kayla nailed it, tied it with a red ribbon and delivered it over home plate.
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Let me admonish you to focus less on the ADD problems and more on the recovery process and all the things you need to do with that. Eric, are you still struggling with anything? is there desire for contact, with OW or a new one or anything else?
CV I am not struggling with wanting anyone else. I have no desire to contact the OW or any other women. Right now Amy is filing for divorce, monitoring EPs, and wanting the full truth. She will let me date her and try to win her back if she sees me get healthy and demonstrate the new man that I am trying to become. The problem I have is reconstructing the affair. What I am working on right now is getting my office phone records. That is the place I talked to the OW during the affair. (I had a "burn phone" that I used to contact her on travel which I used once from here for one conversation. It was so terrible that I didn't use it again. All other convos happened on my work phone. I have some records but I'm missing two months right in the middle of the 6 month (physical) affair. I want to try and get the last two months before making any conclusions. I'll get back to you with everything I've figured out. Your first defense against deceit is your conscience.
That's why the ADD and memory lapses don't add up to the magnitude of harm you've done to your marriage.
The truth of the matter is that your conscience has a voice. You had to stifle that voice that shouted at you at first. You strangled your conscience to near death. That is your first task - resurrect your conscience.
If you need to work with a minister, fine.
Once you allow your conscience to have a voice again, you WILL feel and remember EVERY little violation and the pain that goes with it. You will have to have the courage to face that pain because it was self-inflicted. You chose that pain. Amy did not choose it. So once you've reconnected with your conscience, part of the pain you will feel is the excruciating pain of remorse - from the violation of an innocent.
That is the pain we know you are not feeling - because you would not be talking about ADD. You would be focused on different things. I've seen that turning point.
You're not there yet.
Keep working at it.
Find your conscience and you will find your memory. Every single shameful detail. If you have the courage. I agree. I haven't talked much about the spiritual side of things here. I have done alot of work on that side as well. Reading the bible every day, looking up verses for the core values that I want to live by (honesty, integrity, faith, family, humility, empathy), meeting with my pastor, twice a week with our marriage counselor. I have felt the excruciating pain of remorse and fallen to my knees in front of Amy, broken and sobbing over taking away from her the feeling she described of being one with me that brought her to orgasm when we were together. She can vouch for me. My conscience definitely has a voice, but I'm not sure where I am or how much farther I have to go. I know that the memories are not flooding back for me as you describe. They're just not there that I can see. I hope I'm wrong but judging from my memory of everything else in my life, I'm not hopeful.
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My conscience definitely has a voice, but I'm not sure where I am or how much farther I have to go. Falling on your knees before Amy is not the voice of your conscience. That is you feeling remorse after getting caught. The voice of your conscience is heard telling you: "Stop. Don't do this. This is wrong" .... BEFORE you sin. And, you don't commit the sin. Remorse is after the act of sin. Conscience is before the act of sin. So, to answer your question, you have quite a ways to go to locate the voice of your conscience. Keep posting.
Last edited by Pepperband; 11/16/11 12:49 PM.
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Schlag, the fact that you answered CV's question, and the fact that you are contacting Dr. Harley again, has my attention. I am still following along.
I encourage you to do everything that is suggested to you here. I encourage you to read, nay, MEMORIZE Dr. Harley's website and books. Get really, really, really familiar with this stuff.
And TELL THE TRUTH. ALWAYS.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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A comparison:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You feel anxious and unsettled about your situation.
You know looking at porn would make you feel better.
You tell yourself not to look at porn because that is wrong and you made a promise to Amy, and to yourself.
An act of conscience.
You feel good about yourself.
It is easier to resist porn the next time, because you know you feel good about yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You feel anxious and unsettled about your situation.
You know looking at porn would make you feel better.
You know no one will know, so it won't hurt anyone.
You look at porn.
You feel bad about it later because you broke a promise you made to Amy and a promise you made to yourself.
That is remorse.
Remorse is when you feel bad about what you did.
You become more anxious.
You look at more porn to settle yourself down.
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[
The problem I have is reconstructing the affair. What I am working on right now is getting my office phone records. That is the place I talked to the OW during the affair. (I had a "burn phone" that I used to contact her on travel which I used once from here for one conversation. It was so terrible that I didn't use it again. All other convos happened on my work phone. I have some records but I'm missing two months right in the middle of the 6 month (physical) affair. I want to try and get the last two months before making any conclusions. I'll get back to you with everything I've figured out. What happened to the 2 months worth of records? Where are they and why haven't you produced them? What "conclusions" do you mean and what are you trying to "figure out?" What does it mean "I am working on getting my office phone records? What exactly does that mean?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What happened to the 2 months worth of records? Where are they and why haven't you produced them? What "conclusions" do you mean and what are you trying to "figure out?"
What does it mean "I am working on getting my office phone records? What exactly does that mean? I have been through a few iterations with the telephone company tech person. There are two months that she says are not in the database. I asked her to check again. she's getting annoyed with me and says she can't do it today or tomorrow but will on friday if she has time. I've been back and forth with her about 8-10 times trying to get all the records. I'm trying to figure out whether I loved her. That is the question that remains unanswered that matters to Amy. I don't believe that I loved her. What I DO have of the records is this: The affair started over facebook and the first three work trips were end of march, end of april, and middle of may 2009. The phone calls start 28 may, two weeks after I saw her. Cutting out the calls that were < 1 min, i.e. we didn't get ahold of each other, here are the actual conversations: 28-May-09 10:08 4:54 INCOM 29-May-09 11:00 30:30 INCOM 01-Jun-09 09:39 5:54 INCOM 02-Jun-09 08:47 5:48 INCOM 02-Jun-09 12:39 18:42 INCOM missing 3 june - 7 aug 07-Aug-09 19:37 15:06 INCOM 31-Aug-09 10:51 21:30 INCOM 03-Sep-09 13:18 21:30 INCOM 09-Sep-09 13:12 34:36 INCOM 7 aug was after seeing her very briefly on the fourth trip. the last trip and the last time I saw her in person was 9-13 august. 11 Sep was the 2009 "False" D-day. So there are a few conclusions I can make. First, it got emotional after the third meeting. We hadn't talked on the phone up until then. This is the meeting where we watched old high school videos, drank tequila together, and I stayed overnight. This is probably the trip where she first told me she loved me. All I remember about that was what the heck I should say back. I said I love you back, and did every time from then on that she said it to me. I'm not sure whether it was because I didn't love her or whether it was because I didn't want to admit that I loved her. Second, it was always her calling me. That tells me something too. I would think if I was in love with her that I would have called her. I hope the tech can come up with the missing time period so I can get some more insight. (Side note which is a little disturbing - there are two calls 35 min and 41 min in march of 2010 that I didn't remember happening at all and that were post - verbal NC. Both incoming, but I took the calls and talked to her. I didn't take seriously my NC the first time around.) @Pepper: The first one is where I'm at now. The second one is where I was at a month ago and prior. My focus now is on maintaining and building on every victory of truth and conscience. I know I have a conscience. It's listening to it and disciplining myself to do the admirable every day forward that is new to me. Thanks for posting, everyone.
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I am not struggling with wanting anyone else. I have no desire to contact the OW or any other women.
Right now Amy is filing for divorce, monitoring EPs, and wanting the full truth. She will let me date her and try to win her back if she sees me get healthy and demonstrate the new man that I am trying to become.
The problem I have is reconstructing the affair. What I am working on right now is getting my office phone records. That is the place I talked to the OW during the affair. (I had a "burn phone" that I used to contact her on travel which I used once from here for one conversation. It was so terrible that I didn't use it again. All other convos happened on my work phone. I have some records but I'm missing two months right in the middle of the 6 month (physical) affair. I want to try and get the last two months before making any conclusions. I'll get back to you with everything I've figured out.
So you are requesting the records from work? If so, that's a good start. Will she be able to see them unedited?
I agree. I haven't talked much about the spiritual side of things here. I have done alot of work on that side as well. Reading the bible every day, looking up verses for the core values that I want to live by (honesty, integrity, faith, family, humility, empathy), meeting with my pastor, twice a week with our marriage counselor.
Don't just read though... Read with understanding. Here are some of my lecture notes from a class I taught some time back on reading the Bible:
D. Why interpret scripture?
1. To apply its truths to our lives (so we may be sanctified)
Sanctification is the process by which we are made holy in God's eyes. It is a lifelong process.
2. To lead others by the Spirit into true Truth (so that they may be either saved or sanctified).
This fulfills Christ's great commission to us in Matthew 28 to go and make disciples (not converts). As we apply God's truths to our own lives, we are better empowered to minister to others.
3. It must be studied in so that we may set our lives in order.
Examination of our own hearts should be constantly before us. Psalm 51 shows a wonderful picture of this where David says "I acknowledge my transgressions, my sins are constantly before me", and "create in me a clean heart". He asks that he be "purged with hyssop", a ceremonial cleansing that represents remission of sins. In examination of our hearts and our sinful motives, we come to terms with the lack of perfection and the blemishes on our spirit. We bring them before God and repent.
4. So we may be able to serve God properly, by knowing him properly.
True knowledge of Christ allows us to serve in more purity. It enables us to move more freely in Grace and Mercy towards not only ourselves, but also our brothers and sisters. It is true freedom, in which our growing knowledge allows us to present an ever more pure Gospel to both ourselves and others.
and...
This is a rich evangelical principle of exegesis (drawing meaning out of scripture) that can only be appreciated by those who dig into the depths of scripture and good expository authors of scripture. Dig in!! The ground becomes more and more soft as you continue to work it. It is fertile and willing to yield it's gain to you! The more you draw from scripture, the deeper you will be able to go.
E. Interpret Scripture experimentally and practically
1. The Bible is from one standpoint a book of spiritual experience. For example, we can see from John Bunyan�s �Pilgrims Progress� a practical pictorial index to scripture: we see despair, faith, doubt, temptation, fear, hope, joy, the dry waste of spiritual desertion, and the fight with sin and the eventual triumph of Satan in our lives by Christ who holds us and sustains us through all things.* So in this respect also, we see:
2. Scripture is practical. It meets our needs in today's society without having to find a �new� interpretation. Scriptures truths are applicable in all times, places and situations. There is nothing useless in scripture. It is sufficient in and of itself to deal with the issues of Christians in all ages without need for omission (leaving parts out) or revision. In line with this, we need to�..
F. Interpret Scripture with a faithful and realistic application
1. The application comes out of scripture. It is applying doctrine to our lives. In order to faithfully expound on scripture, we must first know what our doctrine (teachings) are, and then be able to show in scripture how to realistically apply them to our lives. If we fail to appraoch scripture realistically, then we will end up with either dissapointment of it not having produced what we were looking for, or we will end up with fantastic ideas about God and man (a good example of that is there was one evangelist I heard say that before the fall women gave birth from under their armpits!!! He failed to approach scripture both faithfully and realistically and assumed some ridiculous doctrines).
2. We must be faithful in our interpretations of scripture. In our faithfulness in drawing the doctrines of scripture out (exegesis) and not reading our own proposed meaning into them (eisegesis), we can then faithfully establish a scriptural doctrine to apply it to our lives. 2 Timothy 3:16 show the practicality of scripture and its application and result in our lives. It states that all scripture is given from God. That it is profitable for reproof, correction, instruction, and thoroughly equipping the men and women of God for righteousness and to do good works. It is �practical theology�. It calls us to self-examination, to repentance, to be instructed, to instruct. It gives us the guidelines for correcting others and that and also ourselves we should be open to correction and how we should respond to it when it comes (and it will!).
3. Our application should be realistic. There is no �hidden� meaning in scripture, only that which we have not yet plumbed. What I mean is that we cannot come in with a pre-supposed idea and hope to find it in scripture. We may or may not find it, and if we do, it likely is by doing violence to the scriptures rather than seeking what the scriptures really say on such a subject. Scripture in this aspect is primarily a call to assess our own spiritual condition in light of the doctrines set forth therein. A good example is this: A man is thinking about taking a job several hundred miles away, and he opens scripture up to the narrative of Abraham being called away to a foreign country and concludes "God is calling me to forsake everything and go, and he will prosper me!". Now, what if he had opened to the book of Ruth and saw that by going he was going to invite disaster and hardship?". Was this man reading scripture wisely? No. He has misapplied scripture with unrealistic expectations. Instead, he should have opened for example to the book of Proverbs and read that there is wisdom in the counsel of many. He should have prayerfully considered the many other scriptures that encourage men to seek advice in big things and small so that they may make a better decision. See the pattern here?
4. To apply scripture realistically, one must know what is in men's heads as well as what's in their hearts. A well trained person will study people as well as scripture. If applied, there is no discipline more rewarding, and no labor so exciting!!
5. If we follow these six basic questions while reading scripture, we can keep ourselves on the right track:
a. What do these words actually mean?
b. What light do other scriptures throw on this text? Where and how does it fit into the total biblical revelation?
c. What truths does it teach about God, and about man in relation to God?
d. How are these truths related to the saving work of Christ, and what light does the Gospel of Christ throw upon them?
e. What experiences do these truths delineate, or explain, or seek to create or cure? For what practical purpose do they stand in scripture?
f. How do they apply to others and myself in our own actual situation? What human condition do they speak to, and what are they telling us to believe and do?
I have felt the excruciating pain of remorse and fallen to my knees in front of Amy, broken and sobbing over taking away from her the feeling she described of being one with me that brought her to orgasm when we were together. She can vouch for me.
I certainly hope there is more here than the sex that you are remorseful over. At the heart of it, it really isn't the sex with another person that causes the devastation, it is the loss of closeness, trust, togetherness, the loss of time and respect and admiration, the affection and care that the BS deserved and was denied. The sex is representative of that.
My conscience definitely has a voice, but I'm not sure where I am or how much farther I have to go. I know that the memories are not flooding back for me as you describe. They're just not there that I can see. I hope I'm wrong but judging from my memory of everything else in my life, I'm not hopeful.
You are at the very very beginning. You've got a long path to walk. Amy will be your "Jiminey Cricket. she will be the one to tell you when you've "arrived". You will know it as you get closer, but you can trust it when she really sees it and confirms it for you. Right now, your conscience has just started waking up. It is weak-voiced and small. As you work at it, plumb the depths of your own heart and give it voice, it will begin to grow.
Sorry the post was so long
CV
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Celtic love that post. There needs to be a like button!
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Celtic love that post. There needs to be a like button! Thanks HBSteve, Been following your thread and praying for ya.
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So you are requesting the records from work? If so, that's a good start. Will she be able to see them unedited?
Yes, I can go into my work email at home so that she can see the original files that the tech sent. I also forwarded the email to her the instant it came.
Don't just read though... Read with understanding.
Funny you should say that... this sunday's message was about the process of sanctification. I've stopped believing in coincidences. Good points all around.
I certainly hope there is more here than the sex that you are remorseful over. At the heart of it, it really isn't the sex with another person that causes the devastation, it is the loss of closeness, trust, togetherness, the loss of time and respect and admiration, the affection and care that the BS deserved and was denied. The sex is representative of that.
No, it was the loss of those things that I robbed from her that I was feeling the remorse over.
You are at the very very beginning. You've got a long path to walk. Amy will be your "Jiminey Cricket. she will be the one to tell you when you've "arrived". You will know it as you get closer, but you can trust it when she really sees it and confirms it for you. Right now, your conscience has just started waking up. It is weak-voiced and small. As you work at it, plumb the depths of your own heart and give it voice, it will begin to grow.
Sorry the post was so long
CV Thanks.
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I'm trying to figure out whether I loved her. That is the question that remains unanswered that matters to Amy. I don't believe that the answer to this is in phone records. I would definitely bring this up with Dr. Harley.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I'm trying to figure out whether I loved her. That is the question that remains unanswered that matters to Amy. I don't believe that the answer to this is in phone records. I would definitely bring this up with Dr. Harley. I either didn't love her or I'm in denial. When faced with losing my wife in September 2009 I dumped the OW and chose my wife hands down. All the calls I see in the phone records are her calling me. I remember wondering how I should answer when she first said she loved me. Everything I see or remember tells me I didn't love her. That and I don't remember loving her. I remember loving her in high school and loving the two other women I've loved in my life. I also know I didn't miss her when I broke it off in 2009. Yes, I talked to her the following march, but I didn't seek her out.
Last edited by Schlag; 11/16/11 02:51 PM.
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I would say it's painfully obvious you didn't love her. You had an affair with her and ditched her the first sign it might cost you something.
Next subject...
*edit*
Schlag - if I were you I would start writing down the things you have come to definitive ends on; your ADD/Memory problems didn't ruin your marriage or cause your affair - your dishonesty and lack of boundaries did. You did not love your AP, you simply used her because you thought you could get some NSA side-action.
2 check-boxes down...
Last edited by HoldHerHand; 11/16/11 03:05 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Amy is totally unconvinced that I didn't love the OW.
She is really angry today at the 8 phone calls and 21 attempts that happened 05/28/09-06/03/09 and 08/07/09-9/11/09. As well as the further contact in march and july of 2010 after I broke off the affair. (I failed to add the july 2010 calls in my last post. Between 20-29 july 2010 there were 4 attempts and a 2:12 conversation.)
I may get more missing records friday if they exist. The lady is sick of me bugging her.
Last edited by Schlag; 11/16/11 03:34 PM.
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[
I have been through a few iterations with the telephone company tech person. There are two months that she says are not in the database. I asked her to check again. she's getting annoyed with me and says she can't do it today or tomorrow but will on friday if she has time. I've been back and forth with her about 8-10 times trying to get all the records.
. It might be a good idea for Amy to verify this story herself. This could very well be a lie. And what about the phone records for the past 6 months? She needs those too. I'm trying to figure out whether I loved her. That is the question that remains unanswered that matters to Amy. I don't believe that I loved her. You don't need to "figure out" if you loved her. You know how you felt. Looking at phone records obviously won't tell you that.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Amy is totally unconvinced that I didn't love the OW.
She is really angry today at the 8 phone calls and 21 attempts that happened 05/28/09-06/03/09 and 08/07/09-9/11/09. As well as the further contact in march and july of 2010 after I broke off the affair. (I failed to add the july 2010 calls in my last post. Between 20-29 july 2010 there were 4 attempts and a 2:12 conversation.)
I may get more missing records friday if they exist. The lady is sick of me bugging her. Ok, here is what Amy is going through. You keep leaving stuff out of every conversation.
Last edited by LuvsDavid; 11/16/11 03:51 PM.
Me -BS 40
Him - FWH 34 (dtl)
3 D-Days from 12/25/10 to 01/06/11
NC - 01/09/11
02/20/12 done beating my head on that wall.
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Amy is totally unconvinced that I didn't love the OW.
She is really angry today at the 8 phone calls and 21 attempts that happened 05/28/09-06/03/09 and 08/07/09-9/11/09. As well as the further contact in march and july of 2010 after I broke off the affair. (I failed to add the july 2010 calls in my last post. Between 20-29 july 2010 there were 4 attempts and a 2:12 conversation.)
I may get more missing records friday if they exist. The lady is sick of me bugging her. Ok, here is what Amy is going through. You keep leaving stuff out of every conversation. Not to mention the "missing" 2 months.  Amy needs to see the last 6 months, too.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You don't need to "figure out" if you loved her. You know how you felt. Looking at phone records obviously won't tell you that. Exactly. You keep wording things in a deceptive manner... "I don't believe that I loved her..." It's a YES or NO answer, dude. How hard is that. On to the next freaking subject! It feels deceptive when you hang up on a single matter, and get all wishy-washy. Knock down the subject, and MOVE ON TO THE NEXT. You don't need 15 pages of thumb-twiddling to answer a YES or NO question. 
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Ok, so what happens if you did love her? Why are you so scared of it if you did? I have loved many people in my life but dont love them now.
What is the real question Amy needs the answer for?
Me -BS 40
Him - FWH 34 (dtl)
3 D-Days from 12/25/10 to 01/06/11
NC - 01/09/11
02/20/12 done beating my head on that wall.
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Children
by BrainHurts - 10/19/24 03:02 PM
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Forums67
Topics133,615
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Jan 27th, 2020
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