Well, then I suggest if you redo the poly, that you reword the question to;

"Did you and OW discuss making a life together"


And then you answer YES, because you did.

(By the way, that would require leaving your wife. Just in case you didn't get that part about starting a life with another woman...)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...

Well... until your wife is home...


Quit driving it in circles.

And posters who are driving it in circles... please stop.

I was pretty offended hearing just the second part. I don't think Schlag is in much position to tell his wife what she NEEDS to accept...

Schlag, obviously your sub-conscious is interpreting your feelings is a manner differently than your conscious being will permit. This is not a big surprise when dealing with amorphous things like emotions and compulsions.

So, let's take the intangibles out of the equation.

Answer the following questions on your next polygraph (if you can get your BW to credit it):

1 - Did you ever, face-to-face, tell OW that you loved her?
2 - Did you ever tell her by phone that you loved her?
3 - Did you ever tell her through any written medium that you loved her?
4 - Did OW ever tell you, in any way, that she loved you?
5 - Did you and OW ever exchange professions of love at the same time? ("I love you!" "I love you, too.")
6 - Do you believe she loved you?
7 - Do you believe she believed you loved her?

In my earlier note, I posited that FACTS are more discernible than TRUTH. These questions cut through the difference.

There are a lot of analogies that are out there. If the best my H could do would be to pick one like a hot fudge sundae to describe his ho, it would send up a dozen red flags to me. It would be clear to me that he was oblivious to what he'd done or to my feelings.

FWIW, my H called his skank a 'piece of trash.' He called himself worse names until I requested that he stop talking about my husband that way. He certainly never called her anything remotely like a dessert!

Schlag - My feedback.

1) You played a significant role in the break-up of your POSOW's family. She divorced shortly after your PA.

I think you need to sort out your lies. You have a list of lies you told your POSOW and you had a list of lies you told Amy. Both contradict each other.

Can you make a list and sort your lies? Then can you post those here?

For Example ... Please be specific. You cannot help Amy unless she knows exactly how you deceive her, how you threw her under the bus, and how you destroyed her emotionally. Please think about how you used your skank to prop your ownself up at the expense of your wife and children.




Get the point?

lol... Thanks for answering them. They were the questions at the end of the sermon I preached on that passage. Kinda rhetorical, but applicable here too.

I have SAA and I just ordered Love Busters and his Needs Her Needs today.

I just spent the last few hours reading through the individual love busters articles and wrote down some thoughts on each.

Love Busters:

Selfish demands

By far the most selfish I�ve been in our marriage is in the sexual department. I put pressure on her to have sex when she doesn�t want to or feel like it. She made the comment one day that crushed me � that she spent a fourth of her day dreading that I would want it from her that night, and that if she didn�t give in she would pay the price in my pissyness or anger. Putting pressure on her to be something she�s not in the bedroom also drove a wedge into our intimacy.

Obviously there�s no sex right now but if we ever reconcile there will need to be a huge change in my attitude toward sex. I will need to be hyper-aware of my needs, whether they are selfish, and making sure that I communicate them respectfully, and without demanding anything.

Pressuring her to finish her degree so she can work has also been a selfish demand. I�m sure there have been numerous little other ones.

Disrespectful Judgments

This rears its head when the demands come to a head and Amy presses back on it. I wrote her a shameful note about how we do things for each other even if they�re uncomfortable or painful. That was a disrespectful judgment rising to the level of abusive. I�m sure there have been many others.

Belittling her and blaming her when we had money problems for not finishing her degree and contributing financially was where my selfish demands rose to the level of disrespectful judgments on that front. I should have been appreciating her hard work as a stay-at-home mom. I have gotten there in the last year and I think she would say so.

Angry Outbursts

�Instead of protecting each other, spouses become the greatest source of each other's unhappiness -- and it's all instinctive.�

That has been the story of our marriage � and I have been an utter fool for 12 years. The fact that Amy stuck it out as long as she did is a testament to her love and commitment and strength.

Even sarcasm is a non-angry form of angry outburst. And sarcasm is a defense mechanism for me. I need to learn to not be sarcastic.

For the outright anger, I need to address with my counselor anger management techniques for when this crisis mode is over and I start reacting normally to things again. Slipping back into my old comfortable ways is not an option for me anymore. Amy was ready to leave me two months ago for my anger alone, even before she found out about the lies and cheating.

Dr. Harley�s approach to minimizing selfish demands and disrespectful judgments may not be enough since my temper and low tolerance for frustration is exacerbated by my ADD. This is why part of my focus needs to be on the ADD.

Annoying Habits

Amy tells me the things that annoy her but I always just dismissed them as unimportant. I see now that these things add up to withdraw love units and they need to be addressed. Me disappearing to the computer when I get home. (no problem anymore) Me taking off my clothes and getting comfortable and wearing underwear around the house. Me not having nice clothes. Not wearing a nice watch. Leaving my clothes in piles on the floor. I need to be more conscious of these annoying behaviors and fix them.

Some of my annoying habits probably come from ADD as well � my forgetfulness and such. But she is more understanding about those with the knowledge of my disease.

Independent Behavior

I have been guilty of independent behavior throughout our entire marriage. I was selfish and put myself first. We have fought about video games since year one of our marriage. I cut up her clothes once because she wouldn�t give me my game CD back. Going to a strip club against her express wishes one time with Jesse. I could probably sit here all day thinking of examples. I�m sure Amy could rattle off 50.

But even less obvious behavior has been an issue. Sitting on the computer at night instead of spending time with her. How many times has she asked me to play some kind of game with her and I didn�t feel like it so I said no? What a fool I was! Now I would play an all night yahtzee marathon if she asked.

I have always prided myself that I didn�t �go out with the guys� and stuff, but really I was doing the same thing within our own home.

Disonesty

The worst one of all. I have been a protective liar for years. Obviously now I have come out with the truth and am now dealing with the fallout from it. Two years ago I thought continuing to lie was the only way I could stay with Amy and was a huge mistake. The truth is the only way to have a chance to be married to Amy.

There is also this facet:

�In an honest relationship, thoughtless acts are usually corrected. Bad habits are nipped in the bud. Honesty keeps a couple from drifting into incompatibility-as incompatible attitudes and behavior are revealed, they can become targets for elimination. But if these attitudes and behavior remain hidden, they are left to grow out of control.�

This hurt us as well. Being honest about the little things is important too. What a lucky man I am to have someone as honest as Amy. She has never lied to me.

Even my communication is an important factor because honesty not only has to be produced, but communicated effectively. And communication has always been a challenge for me.

Working backwards;



QUIT WITH ALL THE QUALIFYING LANGUAGE.

Again, all that is needed to answer a YES or NO question, is a YES or NO.

Smells like weasel to me!!

Because my honesty is accompanied by qualifying language?

When you get to the point that you are meeting each others needs, and avoiding Love Busters, the majority of this response to Selfish Demands will evaporate.

A huge part of the reason she didn't want to have SF, was because her Love Bank was below the Romantic Love threshold.

Keeping SF within PoJA (and even scheduling it) can avoid a lot of these pitfalls.


Not just a DJ, but you are advocating one spouse gaining at the other's expense. This creates a win/lose and builds resentment.


This is true.


You need to focus on ending Angry Outbursts NOW. If you have an anger problem, it needs to STOP.

There is a poster who could probably help you quite a bit with this.



Schlag - if she is saying that you dress like a slob (clothes and watch), it is not just that it is an annoying habit, it is a clue on how to meet one of her emotional needs. If she wants you to dress and look nice, she is saying that she has a need for an Attractive Spouse. So, dress nicer. Go get a nice watch.

Don't have money? Go out and comb the thrift shops. Take Amy with you. Let Amy pick out some clothes, and PoJA their purchase (do NOT purchase and wear clothes that you HATE - that is win/lose). This gives you 3 tools; some good UA time, some PoJA exercise, and an opportunity to meet Amy's need for an Attractive spouse.


There is a two-fold revelation here; you were in withdrawal, so video games were more interesting. She was in conflict, so she wanted you to get your "lazy azz" off the Xbox and spend some time with her.

I've been there myself.

Simple thing to remember; gaming comes behind everything else. Gaming time can be PoJA'd - so long as UA time and Family Commitment time, as well as other need-meeting (for instance, domestic support) are met according to how important those things are to Amy.

Until then, put the games away.

20+ hours a week of UA time is your most important goal, period.



You still have a long way to go with just speaking honestly without being dodgy.

I am probably just as frustrated and irritated as the rest of the posters that you JUST AREN'T LISTENING.

Maybe... just, maybe one thing you can do to improve your honesty is to stop answering, and start listening to what you are being told.

This goes not just for the board, but for how you talk about things with Amy.

Quit trying to "fix it" and just listen. Ask a question if you don't understand, but don't offer a solution UNLESS IT HAS BEEN ASKED FOR.

Why are you propping up your honesty with qualifying language? Do you not see how qualifying language actually degrades your attempt at honesty?

Read this slowly, and repeat it back to me;


YES or NO questions require no more of an answer than YES or NO.

YES! That's exactly why. Honesty is a straightforward answer: Yes, no, this fact or that fact - unqualified by I think, I believe, etc. Just the facts.

Are you sure you are not a politician? Polys are yes or no, if you keep up with this, you will never pass one.

Because you are talking CRAP!! Honesty doesn't have to be "qualified!"

Very insightful. I always feel like I need to respond, reassure, explain. She has gotten frustrated with that and I'm trying to learn to listen. I just don't know what to say when she talks about how she is feeling. I can't say I'm sorry because she doesn't care. I can't say I'm going to be a good man for her in the future because she doesn't believe me (nor should she yet).

She asked me yesterday to stop telling her that I love her

You don't respond unless she asks you to. You don't apologize, you don't try to "fix it" by saying "I'll be a better man," you listen. If you say anything, it's to clarify things that you don't understand;

"You are saying that you feel lied to when I take 10 minutes to answer a YES or NO question with unnecessary details and qualifications."

And saying insensitive, qualifying things expecting them to be "honesty" doesn't work.

Can you repeat back what I have told you... like 5 times in this thread?

Isn't it an important distinction when admitting that I told OW I loved her - to point out that I didn't really love OW? That's part of the truth too. How is that crap? How does Amy get an accurate accounting of the real situation if I only tell her part of it? Assume for a minute that I really didn't love OW. I know you think I did.