Isn't it an important distinction when admitting that I told OW I loved her - to point out that I didn't really love OW? That's part of the truth too. How is that crap? How does Amy get an accurate accounting of the real situation if I only tell her part of it? Assume for a minute that I really didn't love OW. I know you think I did.

If this statement is true, why are you HERE? Do EVERYONE a favour and READ this site. If you don't find that you agree with what the basic concepts are in MB, then you have NO hope for recovering your marriage from an affair.

You did love OW. She did do something for you. You most likely DID think about leaving Amy for OW. You most definitely DID put OW above Amy.

that I didn't really love her is ALSO truth. Important truth.

Actually, Dr Harley doesn't say that love is always the result of affairs or all affairs result in love. It is *possible* he didn't love posow.

We know what Dr Harley says, but Dr Harley does not define Schlag's feelings. Schlag does. And he described romantic love. He is just scared to call it what it is.

That is entirely her decision. But she is entitled to the truth. And yes, you did love the OW. Your wife already knows it so denying it just makes it worse.

Actually, Dr Harley doesn't say that love is always the result of affairs or all affairs result in love. It is *possible* he didn't love posow.

You are compounding your crime as long as you attempt to control Amy's perception.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.

Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.

For me, serenity began when I learned to distinguish between those things that I could change and those I could not. When I admitted that there were people, places, things, and situations over which I was totally powerless, those things began to lose their power over me. I learned that everyone has the right to make their own mistakes, and learn from them, without my interference, judgement, or assistance!

The key to my serenity is acceptance. But "acceptance" does not mean that I have to like it, condone it, or even ignore it. What it does mean is I am powerless to do anything about it... and I have to accept that fact.

Nor does it mean that I have to accept "unacceptable behavoir." Today I have choices. I no longer have to accept abuse in any form. I can choose to walk away, even if it means stepping out into the unknown. I no longer have to fear "change" or the unknown. I can merely accept it as part of the journey.

I spent years trying to change things in my life over which I was powerless, but did not know it. I threatened, scolded, manipulated, coerced, pleaded, begged, pouted, bribed and generally tried everything I could to make the situation better -- only watch as things always got progressively worse.

I spent so much time trying to change the things I could not change, it never once occurred to me to simply accept them as they were.

Now when things in my life are not going the way I planned them, or downright bad things happen, I can remind myself that whatever is going on is not happening by accident. There's a reason for it and it is not always meant for me to know what that reason is.

That change in attitude has been the key to happiness for me. I know I am not the only who has found that serenity.

Actually, Dr Harley doesn't say that love is always the result of affairs or all affairs result in love. It is *possible* he didn't love posow.

Did you take out Schlag's words that I quoted on purpose to make it look like I was arguing something else? I was talking to him about how he doesn't believe in the love bank, and since that is a MAJOR and pivotal part of MB, I was asking him why he was HERE.

No, I didn't. I was editing for space.

I believe, as everyone else is posting that Schlag most certainly DID love OW during his affair. Could he be looking back on it now and see that it wasn't real? Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that he did at the time. (FWIW, I don't think that is what it is) That is why the polygraph caught him in a lie.

this is the crux of my argument. I could have felt the sky was green last week and it doesn't mean that the sky was green. Feelings change. they come and go. Can't be trusted and feeling something doesn't make it real. I guess my problem here is that feelings often conflict with people. I agree he was dishonest in his answers on the poly.


I also would like to point out that had my WH tried to change wording on a poly to try to ensure that he passed the test, I wouldn't have believed anything it told me anyways. He was intentionally trying to be deceitful. That is just not cool. Not the actions of a truly repentant wayward, and Amy would be on her way to a very nasty false recovery which would have the potential to clear out the LB$. That would be destructive to this marriage.

I agree it is a possibility. I don't think we are too far apart on our thinking here. I do know that we cannot force him to repeat something until he believes it to be true. Been through that and tried it with people before. What I want Eric to do is be able to understand it and be able to grab hold of it himself. Applying heat does one of two things in my opinion... It either burns down the false view, or is solidifies it. He has serious problems in the way he talks. The deceit has permeated every single area of speech. It is evident to all of us. However it doesn't mean he's lying every single time. It Does mean that he suffers the effects of communicating extremely poorly.

CV, I think that you can agree that ENs were being met by OW. Schlag was even going to move closer to OW to get more of a fix more often. Using DrH's own words, what would YOU call it?

agreed. I would call it a fix. A love fix? maybe, maybe not... But like a drug, yes.

CV

Actually, it is math. It's just not easily perceivable math.

The sum of Love Bank deposits being equal or greater than the Romantic Love threshold = Romantic Love.

Now, let me see if I can get you to grasp this and quit arguing;

There is a reason behind the wayward statement "I love you BUT I'm not IN LOVE with you."

That reason is that the wayward usually has CARING love for their spouse (though, they are doing something that goes against that).

They usually still care about their betrayed spouse; this lie is told as a way to avoid and or minimize the damage that the wayward KNOWS infidelity will visit upon their betrayed spouse. They don't wish ill on them, and some of them have this screwed up thing in their heads where they can just divorce their spouse to be with their AP and "just be friends" with their betrayed spouse.

They don't want to cut their spouse out of their life because they still have CARING love.


HOWEVER, by allowing the AP to meet their needs, they have "fallen in love" with the affair partner. And this is Romantic Love. Romantic love drives us to do MORE than care for that person. It drives us to want to meet their needs, and to allow them to meet ours.


So, your assertion that you "didn't love" your AP is BUNK.

You did - you were at least in Romantic Love with her, though you never had any Caring Love.

Romantic Love is the goal of the Marriage Builders program.

Mel is 100% correct!

A definition of surrendering that I like very well....

"When we cease fighting everyone and everything. When there are no more excuses, only a white flag, acknowledging our complete defeat. Only then are we teachable."

Surrender looks like this;

"You're all rigt, I've been an idiot trying to defend myself"

"You're right, I said ILU to OW"

"You're right, I thought I had love for OW"

"You're right, I was so wreckless and thoughtless by committing adultery"

"You're right, I'm really clueless and have been doing everything wrong by defending myself"

"You're right, I need to acknowledge I'm still rationalizing my thoughts and behaviors, doing great damage to my wife and family"

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

You are guilty of the same thing I was guilty of.....


Trying to surrender and still, desperately trying to somehow be right.... somehow I wanted to keep my sense pride.... See, like you, I was still clinging to my old ideas, and until I acknowledged that my best thinking led me into this mess, I was forever stuck in my mire of bullsh**

[

I believe, as everyone else is posting that Schlag most certainly DID love OW during his affair. Could he be looking back on it now and see that it wasn't real? Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that he did at the time. (FWIW, I don't think that is what it is) That is why the polygraph caught him in a lie.

Applying heat does one of two things in my opinion... It either burns down the false view, or is solidifies it. He has serious problems in the way he talks. The deceit has permeated every single area of speech. It is evident to all of us. .

However it doesn't mean he's lying every single time. It Does mean that he suffers the effects of communicating extremely poorly

And speaking of you needing all the help you can get, I honestly thing that you need to be working through the Marriage Builders coaching center or Dr. Harley's online program (where you can post your questions directly to Dr. Harley and have a coach keeping you on the right path). You are about to lose your marriage, and you need all the help you can get.

[

I spent a long conversation last night with Amy admitting that I loved the OW.

Thank you for taking the time and having the patience with me to continually try to beat the truth into my thick skull. I apologize for being so obstinant in my denial.

.

[Papabear, thank you for this post as well. I absolutely surrender. I am done rationalizing and equivocating. I told the OW I loved her and I did have love for her because we were meeting each other's ENs.

I have been clueless for much of these 52 pages and I apologize to everyone, especially Amy, for taking so long to come to my senses and accept the truth.

I'm sure I will still have problems with rationalizing and equivocating and manipulative speech, but I trust that you all will call me on it ruthlessly as you have up to this point. I am open and want to learn how to not be that way.

I agree with this. Schlag needs to be guided by a firm hand that also has the ability to see through his BS. Most people do not have that ability, but Dr H has a great BS detector because he used to manage treatment centers full of addicts and alcoholics.

If there is any way you could get Amy to agree with this, Dr Harley could be a great help. He also would not hesitate to tell Amy to divorce you, Schlag, if you didn't get honest.

I am supposed to come into some money in 2-3 weeks that would cover counseling with Dr. Harley. If Amy is open to it, I will absolutely do it. If she is not open to it, and if you guys recommend it for me alone, and amy agrees to the expenditure, I will still do it.