I meant admit the truth to myself. To accept that I was in denial about loving her and to break out of the fog.

Congratulations, Schlag. This is a positive step.

I hope if you do contact Dr Harley again that you (a) are honest and tell him you didn't disclose all of your affairs the first time you talked to him and (b) give him this list:



And don't think it escaped my notice that you failed to mention that you had ongoing contact with one of those OW from 2009. You should make sure you add that type of information back in before sending to him (and any other missing information, I believe there was another affair that you didn't want to talk about here)

He will need the full picture in order to tell Amy what needs to happen to protect the marriage from another affair.

Let's go a little slower here, OK.

You have been the cause of Amy's pain, therefore you do have a great deal of control over helping Amy heal from what you've done.... As long as she's willing to let you....



Again, slow down and think about what you are saying, OK.

Example; If you lovebust your wife by lying to her tomorrow, you had control of the outcome, she will respond in kind.... do you see this?

If you stop all lying to your wife, you also have some control of how she will respond to you.... do you get it?

Just slow down, you're going to have to re-learn some simple ideas, OK!




This is true....

Yes, I understand that my actions and words have an effect on her and I am concentrating on EPs and love bank and avoiding love busters and being there for her in any way that she will let me.

There's a glimmer of hope for you Schlag, after all.

teachable.

When waywards hold on to their old ideas, the result is nil!

Can you list out all your EP's?

My EPs:

1. I have switched phones with you so that I don't have internet access on my phone. All numbers in and out via voice or text are visible on the Verizon website.
2. I have already eliminated all social networking accounts. I will not make any more.
3. I will take polygraphs as often as I need to in the future to prove anything that can't be demonstrated otherwise.
4. I will install (or you can) software on the home computer so that everything I do is transparent. Until we find a solution that you are confident I can�t defeat, I will only use the computer in your presence. I will not use the laptop unless in your presence.
5. You already have access to all financial accounts.
6. I will work with an attorney to write a post-nuptial agreement. (This doesn�t really apply since she is going through with dissolution. But if she ever decides to hold off on dissolution I'll be tickled pink to write one up for her.)
7. I will quit my membership at the gym and only work out at home or close by. (done)
8. I will not use cash. If I ever need cash for anything I will go through you.
9. I will explain to you the particulars of my pay statement so you know what everything is and where every penny of ours is going.
10. I will go to bed with you every night and not stay up later than you.
11. I will be 100% accountable with my time whenever I�m not with you.
12. I will figure out how to be accountable on my work computer or get a job where I can.
13. I will protect you and your feelings above all else.
14. I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings or personal conversations with anyone of the opposite sex.
15. I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
16. I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
17. I will use the MB policy of joint agreement as a basis for all decisions.
18. I will be open and honest with you at all times about the past and present.
19. I will tell you where I need to go if it's not work or home, and if I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify you of the change immediately.
20. I will make your phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
21. I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
22. I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with you to meet each other's emotional needs every week. (As many as she�ll allow in reality)
23. If any former contact finds a way to make contact, I will not respond and will immediately notify you.
24. I will put up any other boundary you ask of me.
25. I will read my "letter to myself" every morning, as well as Romans 6 through 8 and Hebrews 10:26 every single day to remind myself that one slip means losing you and my family and my eternal salvation.
26. I will bring you with me on any work travel, or I won't go.
27. I will not drink alcohol unless in the presence of you, and won't drink more than you consider appropriate. Exceptions to this rule for any occasion will be by the Policy of Joint Agreement. (Like a male only fishing trip w/ Jason)
28. Call from work as soon as I arrive, and right before I leave.
29. I will install a GPS tracker for my car so you can see everywhere I go.

Schlag,

These are good EPs. Just curious about one more... Since you were exploring a same sex relationship. Do you believe those boundaries need to be extended to men as well?

CV

No, I don't think that's necessary. That was another online (craigslist) seeking of a casual encounter and it is covered by the EP's in place. I've never felt attracted to men in a relationship-seeking kind of way. So I don't think giving up the support of good christian men in my recovery in the interest of an unneccessary EP would be the thing to do.

Of course if Amy feels I should have any restrictions on same-sex meetings or dialogue that would be something that I would put in place in accordance with #24.

Quick clarification: Dr. Harley defines two types of love.

1. Romantic Love as a FEELING.

This is an overwhelming feeling of attraction or need to be with someone. If you find yourself thinking about someone when you're not with them, fantasizing about what you'll do when you're together, and feeling satisfied and content in their presence, then that's Romantic Love. So in that context, did you have Romantic Love with the other woman? Of course you did, otherwise you wouldn't have done what you did.

2. Caring Love as an ACTION.

This is the "I love you" expressed between many family members. It's Love as a Verb, not as a Noun. It's a choice to care for and protect each other. Did you have Caring Love for this woman? From what I read, it seems you did not. However, I could be wrong.


Next clarification: according to Dr. Harley's approach, MEN often can feel Romantic Love for more than one woman. Most women, on the other hand, are REPELLED by the thought of having a Romantic Relationship with more than one man.

So it sounds like what your wife is really after is an answer to this question: "Were you romantically in love with the other woman?" To most females an answer of "yes" means that while you were in love with the other woman, you could not possibly be in love with your wife. As a man, you understand this is not a true assumption on her part.

But you know what? You can't educate her on that. You're not in a position to educate at all. So accept that while you believe you loved (caring & romantic) your wife at the same time that you loved (romantic) your affair partner, that's probably not going to be the way she sees it at all. And then move on with the work of recovery rather than the work of trying to make this whole thing more difficult than it already is.

It's reasonable to ask a spouse to limit close friendships with gay same-sex friends.

What is a "close friendship"? It is any friendship in which you meet any of the four intimate emotional needs: Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, or Sexual Fulfillment.

"Intimate Conversation" gets a lot of men, because we often don't understand exactly what it is. Basically, if you are discussing any of your plans for the future, hopes, dreams, or problems, you're having an intimate conversation. Many of us are so wired to talk about a lot of this with anyone that we don't realize we're reaching a level of intimacy with our companions that we shouldn't be.

The key to realize when it comes to avoiding Intimate Conversation with a member of the opposite sex or same-sex gay person is "just the facts". If you are relating strictly factual or contextual information, you're not having an intimate conversation. If you're relating anything about your own feelings, you're having an intimate conversation.

My last note is that if your spouse pursues the divorce despite your attempts at reconciliation... let her. Do your best to ensure the terms of your divorce are fair to both of you, but you broke pretty much the only promise any modern marriage makes to one another. It's the right thing for you to allow a dignified divorce under such difficult circumstances.

However, I cheer you on in your efforts to work like mad to keep her!

I like most of your EPs. The only places that set off alarms were where you said you would "avoid" porn, etc and where you were making an exception(on the last one). It could be just the way that you worded them, but to me it seems like you were leaving yourself some wiggle room. Take another look and see what you can do about that.

How many of these can you accomplish right now?

How about "strictly avoid"? I did not mean to imply there was wiggle room. I don't consider there to be.

As far as the exception for alcohol, she has made it clear that she considers one drink too many. So effectively the EP is "no drinking". I suppose if she ever feels differently POJA will allow for changes.

So: here they are.

1. I have switched phones with you so that I don't have internet access on my phone. All numbers in and out via voice or text are visible on the Verizon website.
2. I have already eliminated all social networking accounts. I will not make any more.
3. I will take polygraphs as often as I need to in the future to prove anything that can't be demonstrated otherwise.
4. I will install (or you can) software on the home computer so that everything I do is transparent. Until we find a solution that you are confident I can�t defeat, I will only use the computer in your presence. I will not use the laptop unless in your presence.
5. You already have access to all financial accounts.
6. I will work with an attorney to write a post-nuptial agreement. (This doesn�t really apply since she is going through with dissolution.)
7. I will quit my membership at the gym and only work out at home or close by. (done)
8. I will not use cash. If I ever need cash for anything I will go through you.
9. I will explain to you the particulars of my pay statement so you know what everything is and where every penny of ours is going.
10. I will go to bed with you every night and not stay up later than you.
11. I will be 100% accountable with my time whenever I�m not with you.
12. I will figure out how to be accountable on my work computer or get a job where I can.
13. I will protect you and your feelings above all else.
14. I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings or personal conversations with anyone of the opposite sex.
15. I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
16. I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
17. I will use the MB policy of joint agreement as a basis for all decisions.
18. I will be open and honest with you at all times about the past and present.
19. I will tell you where I need to go if it's not work or home, and if I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify you of the change immediately.
20. I will make your phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
21. I will strictly avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
22. I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with you to meet each other's emotional needs every week. (As many as she�ll allow in reality)
23. If any former contact finds a way to make contact, I will not respond and will immediately notify you.
24. I will put up any other boundary you ask of me.
25. I will read my "letter to myself" every morning, as well as Romans 6 through 8 and Hebrews 10:26 every single day to remind myself that one slip means losing you and my family and my eternal salvation.
26. I will bring you with me on any work travel, or I won't go.
27. I will not drink alcohol.
28. Call from work as soon as I arrive, and right before I leave.
29. I will install a GPS tracker for my car so you can see everywhere I go.


EDIT: Right now I can't do #10 since I'm sleeping on the couch. She has expressed concern after the craigslist incident that she doesn't know if I'm leaving the house at night, so I have to figure out how to address that. I may have to use my time lapse video camera every night.

Also, #12 is proving a real issue. But I'm working hard on it. It's perhaps the most important EP of all and every day without it is causing problems. But the government does not do anything quickly.

#29 will obviate #28 I just don't have the money to do it yet.

Heh, it's funny, my wife feels the same way. And I've never strayed, nor gotten drunk a single time in my life. But upon learning she didn't like the fact I'd have an occasional drink, I've become a satisfied teetotaler.


ABSOLUTELY. The best thing I like about the POJA is the default position is to do nothing. So any agreements you make now are negotiable down the line. In fact, my wife and I often make agreements with an 89-day time limit of trying it out to see if we're still enthusiastic about it at the end of three months. Usually, we find that it's better than whatever we were doing, so we stick with it.

That is, in fact, how cooking a family breakfast together 5 days a week has become a habit since a few weeks after D-Day. A great change.

DNM,

With all due respect.... EP's are not negotiable.

EP's are boudaries that are laid in place to prevent the conditions that made the affair possible. There can be NO wiggle room!!!!

Other areas of agreement are negotiable through POJA....

But not EP's....

I both agree and disagree with you No respect necessary.


And as time goes by, as long as both you and your spouse can agree follow the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation, some of them can be negotiated to change their form. For instance, to make them stronger.

As an example, in the days after D-Day, my wife and I agreed that "no close friends of the opposite sex" was an important EP. It was the best we could do at the time. As time went on, we realized that even having a single intimate conversation was a threat, so we revised the rule to "no friends of the opposite sex" with both of our enthusiastic agreement.

So that's the "disagree" part. EPs can and should be revised -- with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement and your own -- to accommodate changes in understanding and circumstance.'

The "agree" part is that neither partner should unilaterally change EPs once they're in place. That's how people get into these messes in the first place!

I also agree with you that drinking was probably a poor example. Re-reading what I wrote, I realize that I was projecting some of my own situation on the original poster. Whereas alcohol played some role in his infidelity, in my marriage it was strictly something that made my wife unhappy, and as we couldn't come to an agreement on it after much negotiation I "did nothing", thereby eliminating alcohol from my life completely.

I hope this clarification didn't serve to confuse the issue further!

I think you clarified it well.

I'm just very adamant that a wayward understands that there is no wiggling out of boundaries/EP's....

I perfectly OK with the idea of shoring them up even more with time. Especially in this situation...