From scanning through the posts I have noticed many of you seem to be in a waffle maker. Individually, and/or with your spouse also in a waffle maker. The hot indented plates are pressing into you causing damage which will have permanent effects the longer the heat is applied. As more pressure is applied to come to "a decision" about what to do with your marriage, the dents become deeper and more inflexible, making rebuilding, flexing back into shape, more difficult, if not impossible.<P>The point I am trying to make with this "waffle analogy" is that the indecisiveness is counter productive to success in either direction. Marriage rebuilding vs. Survival as a single entity with or with/out children. As long as divorce is an option, rebuilding of the marriage WILL FAIL! Early in my discussion with my H, after discovery, we discussed this point. To accept the concept that "divorce is not an option" forces other decisions and conclusions. For example. If divorce is not an option, than individual happiness, fulfillment and contentment MUST be found in the marriage, with the joint agreement of both parties. Therefore, to stay married, because divorce is not an option, implies that the only options left are to, one, either accept a less than perfect situation, living individual lives within the confines of marriage restraints, keeping peace by not complaining, but accepting the situation as is, OR, two, to agree to work together to make the situation fun, loving and supportive for both partners. This second option if by far the more difficult, because it involves more compromise and sacrifice and a lot of soul searching and "relationship therapy." But the end result is that the time spent on "finding happiness with your chosen spouse" is a goal shared by both partners and as such is more likely to succeed. I think, to some extent, this is the point Harley is trying to make with his POJA.<P> If divorce is left open as an option, considered over and over, never fully accepted as the right solution by one or the other partner, but followed through with anyway, unrealistics hopes for reconciliation will hender healthy growth toward contentment by one or the other of the divorcees. If divorce is an option, but never followed through with, it becomes a "threat" used by both partners at one time or another, which is a most definite love buster. Rather than recognizing a problem and choosing to "deal with it" in a loving and "marriage building" manner, one or other partner has the option of throwing up his hands declaring "if it can't be this or that way, we may as well get a divorce!"<P>Having made the absolute decision that "Divorce IS NOT an option!" my H and I have had no choice but to forgive each others mistakes, and approach each other daily with the loving responses and reactions we each WANT from a marriage partner. Life is too short to hold grudges which result in the withdrawal of much needed and desired affection, companionship etc. There are still sore points, bad memories of things that made one or the other of us, mad, sad or disappointed in the past, but now when those thoughts come to mind or to conversation, our mind set is to consider and/or understand the perception of the other without anger or hatefullness. Disagreement is ok, as long as it is agreed that disagreement is ok. Actually, it is healthy to come to the agreement that disagreement is ok, because lovebusting techniques will no longer be necessary for getting a point across. The key is improvement of communication skills, by remembering to come from a place of LOVE in all your interactions.<P>Well, maybe suggesting to you guys to quit "waffling" is easier said than done particularily if none of what I have typed makes any sense to you . But it could be a real good topic of conversation to get into with your spouse or councelor.<P>I read this to my H and he thought it "mostly" makes sense and thinks he agrees with how I put it . I really would be interested in any of your thoughts on this idea, pro or con!<P>Beth

Beth - wish my H would read this. I entered this whole marriage with the "divorce is not an option" attitude - even then I know I made some mistakes.<P>Good post.<P>Lori

I would like to make divorce a no option issue, but our stat govenment has made it an option by making a law that one can file for divorce the other doesn't have to agree or sign and it still goes into affect. I don't want a divorce my H has asked for one. I said I would file when I had the money(who knows when that will be). I wish making divorce a nonoption was easy but <BR>sometimes we are not even given that chance <BR> I entered my marriage with the understanding divorce would not be a option. I take my vows seriously and so did he till now. I know a some people think if it doesn't work we can always get a divorce. I think the OW is one of these people. It isn't my option but it is his now.<BR>------------------<BR>di<P><p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited October 31, 1999).]

Wow pw, got my attention. I understand what you are saying. And we will likely agree to disagree on this one. Divorce is an option for me...and always has been. That has not changed. That does not mean that I will take this option, but it is there.<BR>If my h were to ever abuse me again, I would take the option. If he were to ever fall back into sexual complusive bahavior I would take the option. Both are self protective modes-I will not be beaten to death or infected. I have kids that need their mom! <BR>H and I have discussed this and we both know it is there in the eyes of the law. Will that protect me? Likely not ifhe is angry enough! The law has never been good at prevention, only at punishment. I have to protect myself and my children. <BR>Back to the discussion....I tend to get rather caught up in this idea! The idea of divorce should never be held over one's head, nor used as a weapon. And it should not be used as the escape method when dealing with very tough emotional dramas. I think some see it as the easy way out, and sometimes this is true. But sometimes it is a last resort.....the only option in a crazy situation.<BR>H and I do occ discuss this, and we both agree that it is not the answer for us at all. But he is quite clear on my boundaries and I think that is waht keeps this notion far away for us.<BR>

I unfortunately came to this board too late. I had already filed for divorce because I live in a comm prop state, and my H was spending thousands of dollars on the OW on my credit card. I have discussed at length my opinions on keeping the marriage going, marital counseling, etc. He refuses to listen. Any suggestions?

ya know how sometimes you sit in church and the minister says things that make you think he talking DIRECTLY to you? Ouch! <P>My H and I are true wafflers, but we are trying to find our way back. We have gone back and forth, and right at this moment he is gone to think about whether he really wants the apartment he's acquired. I think he will come back and say that yes, he does, but I don't know any other way to deal with this stuff other than to support whatever decision he makes.<P>I loved this post, don't get me wrong... it will be printed out and shared WHEN we get back together! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

i told my H that divorce ws not an option before we got married, and told him all the things that you wrote. unfortunately, the day after my first child was born, he said something vague about us not working out, and that was the foot in the door for lots of waffling. life has been a basic hell since then. I KNEW that would happen. <BR>we are still waffling away, and i don't know how to stop it yet.<BR>it is a major lovebuster, for sure

pw--i enjoyed the post it made a lot of sense--for me sadly, a betrayer my w has already filed...she felt she needed the protection although she is in the waffle iron as i am writing...i wish it wasn't an option and i could force her to work on things...but i know that only she can decide that she wants to try...it takes two to rebuild and her waffle status is understandable by me...and i know that i have to be patient maybe let the batter heat a little and even when she does lovebust on me i have to suck it up and not waffle myself because i am willing to do whatever is necessary to try to be with my w...her waffling definately causes me to waffle but when i step back i know deep down what i want...hopefully when she is done waffling i will be able to use the syrup and have the best and sweetest waffle in the world...thanks for the post i hope my w sees it...much peace and love ... trying hard

You have defined me. I am a waffler. and my H, trying hard, obviously felt a connection to you too and your good words. When we first married, I never thought divorce would be an option. And, although I have filed, I'm still not sure it is the right move.But my H betrayed me in such a way that I don't know if I can ever trust him again or even if I want to. What h did to me was so selfish and self-indulgent. We were together for 10 yrs and only married 1 1/2 before his affair that ended in pregant ow. Divorce becomes an option when the future together looks so unbearable, unbelievable and full of hurt for both of us. Love to give him his waffle with syrup but don't know if I can.Thanks for your thoughts.

Hey Pilot's Wife,<P>Cute analogy. Now for the tough question. GIVEN: OK let's say Divorce is not an available option in our situations. PROVE: How do you get "them" to stop waffling? By simply removing one out of three options "they" still might not decide. What is their incentive? Val is still in the fantasy cloud nine phase and has remarked that she likes it like this. I guess by having two men pining for her increased her self esteam. Now it's only one guy. <P>I'm in Plan AB. I will be nice to her is she calls, but, will not go out of my way to contact her. <P>Ya know when you open up the waffle maker too early and it's not quite done. The batter sticks to both sufaces [S and OP]. I believe many of our S are at this stage. I also believe that if we close the waffle maker and walk away, give it some more time to "cook" we might be able to get that waffle out of the way.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

Hi PW =<P>I know who I am and what I want....<P>So how to get H to throw out the waffle iron and buy an Eggo!!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Beth - Great metaphor, great sermon! But can a marriage really work if the betrayer (my W)adamantly refuses to admit her affair and even tries to make out like I'm certifiably insane for knowing that she IS cheating? I do think (ala Dr. H) that if the betrayer confesses and genuinely seeks to reconcile things with the betrayed that there is good hope. Also feel, that if two people feel strongly enough about each other (usually called "being in love") to get married in the first place, then there is always hope that the marriage can become rock-solid and endure. The question is, how to get there? If one of the partners is cheating and steadfastly refuses to admit it or give it up, despite the fact that the other person goes through all kinds of emotional hoops and contortions, what hope is there? But to tell you the truth, I actually am willing to stick it out with my W and not split, even though she continues to treat me this way despite my best efforts. (BTW, want to thank you for all the thoughtful responses you've made to my threads, which I have taken to heart, as I do now.) Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Beth,<P>I agree in principal with "divorce is not an option". I agree with it spiritually, moral and religiously too.<P>However, I have to agree with SDS and cl...<BR>Divorce is a civil decree... and there are times that the law (especially divorce law) is neither spiritually supportive, morally motivated, nor in anyway religiously inclined. Most all law (family law) is there to primarily rake in money to a judicial systems that loves to complain... but will suck the money out of near penniless people, who if they are not millionaires, will become more penniless.<P>Therefore...<P>What SDS(di) says holds alot of water...<BR>If I don't want a divorce... and my spouse does...I lose! Yes this S#@KS! We have to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's... and d*^n it... we have to play that awful game sometimes... and this s#@ks too!<P>What cl says is also true...<BR>Even early christian leaders don't rule out divorce for cases of violence against spouses and children... the innocent must <B>always</B> be protected.<P>I too have been involved in a divorce, since I needed to protect my children from living in a house of moral decay with my W and OM, as they(W & OM) were getting into S&M and bondage and domination... tell me not to fight for them!<P>I too only found MB after having filed... now I stay with Plan A... <B>and YES</B>... I am trying to bust this divorce to the hilt... but the theory and the practice of "divorce is not an option" needs to be balanced!<P>Sorry if I seem upset... just getting over the flu.<P>I love you all. <P>Jim

Hi beth, have been thinking about you.<P>I love your post. It made a lot of sense. Unfortunately as others said in some cases it might not be practical.<P>I also made divorce not an option, but I think the reason it worked, was because he didn't want the divorce either ( although he thought he did, but that's another story ). However, at the same time, I had to acknowledge that if he wanted to divorce, there wasn't much I could do to prevent it other than stalling as much as I could, which I planned on doing if it ever happened. I decided that if he took that path, I would not make it easy for him in anyway. But again, Im not sure if I wold get any results from it, if he was really sure about it being what he wanted.<P>Another thing that I did, was to in a way making failure not an option either. What I mean is that ever since I discovered the affair, I acted as if I had no doubts that we would be able to solve whatever needed to be solved and as if rebuilding was certain ( this doesn't mean that I wasn't full of doubts, just that it was the way I decided to treat it, I found that concentrating on the positive seems to get more positive responses than the opposite.<P>But no matter what I decided, his own decision could overrule mine in many ways, so creating no-option situations can also backfire, or at least not work as planned.<P>It's sad, but seems to be the reality. And I made sure to be as realistic as possible.<P>However I also have seen some posts where the people involved could benefit from this post. Thanks for posting it.<P>Take care.<BR>Kat<P>P.S. how are things? Is the trip to Hawai confirmed? <P>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I know that I sometimes sound like a waffler, but divorce is not an option to me. I told H last night that was the way I always felt, but that over the last nine years he had made comments that lead me believe it was one to him. I have only seen a lawyer because he doesn't want one - to save $. <P>Anyway, I agree. If you take that option out you can choose to be miserable or happy. The choice is yours to make it work or not. <P>Great thread!!!<P> <P>------------------<BR>d is for dog<BR>h is for hope<BR>j is for joy, pure joy!<P>

Pilots Wife:<P>My nickels worth from an evangelical Christian who did her teething on a hymnal (daddy was the song leader).<P>I agree in principle with the 'not an option' philosophy. When we got engaged 16 years ago, we wholeheartedly agreed that we would never even joke about divorce. <BR>It is easy to be so sure when you are in your twenties and can't imagine the other person betraying you by having an affair. We never discussed what we would do in this instance, because then, he 'Only Had Eyes'..for me.<P>Now, he is home and in a state of regret, "moving towards remorse". We are not yet to the place of repentance. The only tears he sheds are sympathetic tears when I have a crying jag. <P>This weekend we went out to a movie. It was his turn to pick, so we saw "American Beauty". I didn't know it was about the guys midlife crisis or I would have had him go with his male friend. We made it to the scene where the wife goes to a cheap hotel with a business competitor. I lost it and asked for the car keys, and he said "I'm coming with you". <P>It took two strong drinks and many sweet words to stop my hyssie fit. The hurt just flies up from the inside of my toes and turns me into a convulsing, blabbering fool. "How could you do that thirty times...it is so ugly, I cannot believe I married someone who could be so base...So many lies, I thought you were my best friend..." You get the picture. <P>If I cannot get past this fury every time I am confronted with incidences of infidelity (lets face it, the culture is full of them), then he and I need to agree that this death blow to our first marriage may have done the trick. <P>He is already talking about renting a large party boat and inviting all our close friends to a recommittment ceremony. I'm still waiting for indications that he is repentant and it will NEVER happen again. <P>He agrees that he isn't there yet...Still believes that it is a basic component of his personality to relate to all women with flirting. H. says that he can't be any different. I say that he is choosing not to do the hard work of putting a hedge around our marriage. (Read "Hedges" by Jerry Jenkins).<P>So, instead of feeling like I have to stay with him because I said my vows, I need to feel that divorce is an option that I can (and probably will) choose to pass up. <P>If I don't have the freedom to choose, (which scripture gives the betrayed), then I am trapped by the very relationship with God that is my strength and gives me grace to go on.<P>by His grace,<P>hanging on to hope,<P>LIZZIE<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

I can agree that divorce is not an option if it can also be agreed that there is no option but to try to make the marriage better. One of our counselors told my wife that she seemed determined to hold me to my obligation to stay in the marriage but that she didn't seem to feel obligated to do anything to make the marriage better.

WOW!<P>What a lot of great responses this thread has gotten! Some very good points made as well. And some I don’t have the answers for, but we can all throw out ideas.<P>Lostva<BR>So……let you H read it maybe? Conversation sparker.<P>SDS<BR>Why do you have to file, if it is not what you want? Let him file. It sucks when our nobel politicians take our choices away from us.<P>CL<BR>I should have noted exceptions….. Abuse makes divorce an option in any circumstances. And even continuous infidelity would make divorce an option, but it is more the mind set that BOTH partners must adopt for a successful marriage and in so doing neither abuse or infidelity has a place in the marriage.<P>Kate31<BR>You obviously have to cover your interests and again the point is more that BOTH partners have to accept the divorce is not an option concept for it to work. When one partner is not there in his thinking, as many spouses on this board are not, than that is when Plan A has a role. If plan A begins to work and it is decided to “stay married” than the divorce is not an option philosophy can be adopted.<P>Sheryl and H.<P>Yes, you two do seem to fit the waffle description somewhat. AND/but I think there is hope. It seems evident that there is love between you. If you could just focus on that……<P>LOB<BR>I don’t have a sure fire answer as to how to stop waffling either. Maybe it is just making a decision and sticking with it. Like “Just say NO.”<P>Trying hard and Life<BR>You two have a lot to work out due to the new soul brought into the equation, but with a divorce is not an option viewpoint, that could be seen as a challenge. It is possible to find solutions that you both can live with. It is possible to forgive, grow and love more fully. The future looks unbearable because that is what you “choose” to see. The miracle of the mind is that you have the power to change your perceptions. There will be unbearable, unbelievable and painful moments in your future NO MATTER who you are with! Chose to see your current obstacles as hurdles to conquer together as a unified entity and with each success your bond will grow stronger. There may be a use for that syrup sooner than you think.<P>Medic238<BR>I think you are handling the situation as best as you can. We can not make our spouse “stop waffling” or agree to the concept of “divorce is not an option.” We can not MAKE them do anything. It is in those circumstances that PLAN A and B become useful. <BR>I liked your addition to the analogy, and good point!<P>Sheba<BR>Open and honest communication over and over and over…………….<P>Wexwell<BR>Can you not make it impossible for the W to be anywhere without you? When she goes out, go with her if at all possible. Fill her spare time with YOU. Increase the Plan A techniques. If “there is no other man” how can she deny you her company?<P><BR>NSR<BR>You did not seem anymore upset than you should have and I agree with all of your thoughts.<P>Kat1<BR>Hi, Kat<BR>Good point, It only works with the full agreement and cooperation of both parties, then it works sooo well.<BR>Good point of “failure not and option” too. Sorta follows naturally.<P>Don’t think I will have to go to Ha. The trip was dropped!!! YEAH!<P>Dhj<BR>Thanks for your imput.<P>Liz<BR>Full repentance may never happen. Am not sure it is necessary for full recovery as long as other elements of the recovery are strong. Sympathetic tears may be all you ever get, but that’s pretty nice in itself!<BR>My H valued his relationship with the OW and I think always will, so will never fully repent. So Be It!<BR>I have him now and plan to keep it that way. I think leaving the option to divorce as a last resort, is safe as long as the option is not a threat as you both recover. Good luck. <P>

PW<P>Although "divorce is not an option" is my personal belief - and was my W's until this year - unfortunately it really is an option. It is an easy (relatively) option to pursue, as I have learned. Just a month into her affair, my W filed for divorce. It is nearly final, and there is nothing I can do to stop it. For me to preach, "divorce is not an option" would be ridiculous at this point.<P>Perhaps your words need to be heard by wafflers, but to those of us (and there are many) who are victimized by an adulterous spouse and are stuck with a thoroughly unwanted divorce, your words provide no encouragement whatsoever. I already feel stigmatized in the Christian community, the big "D" on my forehead. Since I have chosen to be discreet about my W's infidelity, and only share with trusted friends, many people assume the worst about me as a man and husband. <P>Black and white thinking applied to very gray and confusing circumstances is discouraging.

Murry and Doc, <BR>Sorry I missed your responses the first time around, but did not want you to think that I had not read them.<P>Murry, <BR>I agree with you in that if it is "decided" by both partners the "divorce is not an option." the logical consequence would be that BOTH parties involved would understand that happiness together will NOT just happen, but rather has to be "practiced" as with any job or profession. (SOrry about the long sentence.) Anyway, once that decision is reached ENTHUSIASTICALLY by both partners, other behaviors and attitudes must follow. Good point.<P>Doc...<BR> You are right to some extent. Once the D-ball is rolling the concept of "Divorce is not an option" is a moot point. And the points made in relation to coming to that decision with a spouse provide no encouragement for the divorced. However, if you read the other points made about the "waffling" issue, maybe you can flip the idea to apply to you. Your wife did not waffle. She jumped in and ran, leaving you no choice. You have been forced to accept a decision, as have many others, that you had little or no part in making. You are left with new choices, however, which can also be "waffled" over. Accept the divorce, say good-bye and get on with your own growth and happiness, OR fight the divorce,clinging to "real" or "imagined" hope that even after a divorce there may be a chance at reconciliation and remarriage to the same spouse. The "waffle" attitude is the problem, not the side of the fence you jump off on. If you decide that there is not a chance in Hell that reconciliation will happen then jump on that side and follow a new path for your own inner peace and happiness. If there is significant reason for hope, even at this late stage of the game, then jump on that side wholeheartedly. To thine own self be true! The d may still happen, but the relationship will only change. It does not have to end. A relationship can still exist, it is up to you to determine what positive properties and elements the relationship will have. Let the love be a constant in the midst of the other changes. Hope this idea helps some, if not maybe someone else can give some imput.<P>Best of luck.<P>Beth<P>