Based on a previous thread about men and porn use, I would like to start a thread on sexual aversion.

It seems to me that females are much more adverse to sex than men. Much like men are pulled into porn by society are women taught to have a disdain for sex. In the circles of friends I've had in my wife, it seems the man always wants more SF and the women could care less.

Just a thought.

Men get taught that porn is an acceptable means to a happy ending..

Women are taught to stay pure and see sex as dirty. Where does this thought process come from?

Yeah, and this is so stupid. lol I personally think it stems from men being the dominant, controlling species. Men have been allowed to express themselves sexually all throughout history, and women have not been allowed, as the weaker of the two genders. Women were "owned" in a sense, women were taught to be pure for their future owner. Women are starting to express themselves more, but it's been a double standard for a long time! And one of my pet peeves b/c I hate unfairness! You are also right about how the media molds people's thinking. Women are constantly bombarded by movies/internet/magazines to show off their bodies. A lot of women desire the attention. It backfires on men b/c this makes men have to worry about their woman craving attention from others regarding her body. Not good. It would be smart for the media to feed women's sex drives, lol. I mean think about it. Hello. If men complain that women have lower sex drives, then start feeding it! lol Why is everything geared to feed the species with the (claimed) existing higher sex drive??? Things are backward! lol Women wear strings on the beach and men wear long shorts down to their knees! Not fair! lol If I were Oprah, I'd be advocating these double standards and changing things! lol I mean where's the equivalent Hooter's Restaurant for women??? The one named Peckers and we are surely talking about woodpeckers. The men must wear tight jeans to highlight their package, and no shirt with sexy suspenders. I can keep ranting, but I won't. lol

Dr. Harley states that, in general, men have the higher sex drive, which is the result of having a lot more testosterone running through their blood veins.

And, in general, women have a lower sex drive due to much less testosterone.

Women, often having less sexual desire in the first place, reduce it further by getting fatigued due to long hours on a job, household stuff, children, whatnot, and sex gets pushed to the back burner.

Couples diminish the SF environment by not spending enough UA time together meeting each others most intimate emotional needs.

In the best scenarios, a woman is a willing sexual partner. Her H is affectionate with her and together, they create an environment of loving affection that exists as a part of the marriage overall.

When H wants to make love, he simply indicates his desire, either physically or verbally. A wife who is sexually willing agrees to this, not because of her own desire necessarily at that time, but because she knows it's a need for her H AND that it's going to be a predictably pleasurable experience for her.

So it kind of sounds like a "sacrifice" on her part, but really it is not at all.

The person with the lower need for sex directs the sex. She needs to let H know what it takes to get her to sexual desire. She indicates the position (s), the amount of time, the various things they will do. Most women don't care for deviations in this; surprises are not appreciated.

This is something that can take a lot of time and effort to work out, but it is so worth it. Too many marry and think there is no further need to put in the effort here. We wait until it's late, and we're exhausted, etc.

There are many times H will call me from work and ask me to meet him in bed. Because of the affectionate environment, this is something I willingly agree to, even though I have absolutely no desire for SF at that moment. He knows what it takes to bring on the sexual desire in me. For the most part, it always works out enjoyably for me. I'm always glad we had that special time together. Somehow, the successful SF experience fosters even more of it. (Sorry if TMI)

The environment for SF requires a constant effort to be affectionate and engage in intimate conversation.

I know all of this probably sounds very idealistic, but it is attainable. Couples with children still at home need to make a special effort to get time by themselves, scheduling it when necessary. We've had periods of great SF followed by dry spells. Often this was due to work stresses for either one of us or one of us was in school or we lived with an angry teenager or whatever...The biggest reason for the dry spells was the lack of affection.

We're a year out from D-Day and having used MB Online for about 5 months, we both have a lot more understanding of this very important emotional need. My H is no longer embarrassed by his desires and I make sure I'm "available."

So women needed permission but men didn't? I realize there are weak women out there, but aren't there also weak men?

This is a matter of nature, rather than nuture. Men have higher testosterone levels and, IN GENERAL, have higher sex drives than women.

Great post, 51CD!

Great post 51CD30...

The question I am asking is not about low sex drive, but the aversion to sex. Why is it that women seem to have a dislike for the act itself? Is it nature or nurture?

We are taught certain reactions to various conditions, one of which is sexual desire and it's outcome. Porn would have very little effect on a male who was not taught that is was going to be sexual. Naked pictures of women do very little for men if there was not a taught reaction to seeing them?

In the same respect, many if not most women view sex and nudity as a subject of privacy and something not to be discussed. This forum not withstanding. Why is that. I have a 15 yr old DD and want her to not grow up with these preconceived ideas about sex and love.

Dr. Harley says it's because of the husband -- his demands to have his own sexual desires met at the expense of his wife, and his inability to pleasure his wife in a way that is meaningful to her. This creates aversion.


Nothing in these statements have any basis in reality.
Men do not need to be taught to see a naked woman as sexual.

Dr. Harley has said that this is really an issue of the past, not the present. Women today are, generally, more desirous of sex.

I don't know where you are getting this information about women having an aversion to the sex act itself. I have not heard of that.

My parents didn't teach or display any kind of aversion, nor did those of my husband. We likewise taught our own daughter that sex is a beautiful act shared between married people, preferably.

The only way I would have an aversion to sex itself is if it was a consistently unpleasant experience for me. Also I would not want to have SF with my H if I didn't feel close to him.


I am not sure about this one, but from what I understand about males in general, the stimulation a man receives from looking at naked women in real life or in pictures is not taught; it's inherent. The way I understand it is that it's the way males are "built."

@MelodyLane. Not permission, but were not allowed. What I meant by "weaker" was that throughout history, even in the Bible, women are referred to as the weaker vessel, meaning not mentally but physically. And due to that, women have been dominated. If it were reversed, women would have been more powerful and controlling. As it is, men have been the dominant. Women have not been allowed by men as time passed to express their sexuality until it's become normal and not encouraged. Lots of double standards in this area. Now I will deviate on some side roads, if I may: If men were smart, they would not call a woman who sleeps with multiple men a slut/whore, b/c if men wanted women to be more sexual, they would not degrade them from being such. lol Men who sleep with many women are called studs. Double standard. One thing I noted, if one respects the Bible, is that thousands of years ago, it would qualify both men and women as being "beautiful in appearance". It would refer to men as being handsome. Meaning physical appearance was important to women and men. I appreciate that the Bible does not only refer to women as being beautiful, as if it were one-sided. Men AS A WHOLE need to worry about presenting themselves as physically attractive as well, so that women see it as important to excite them sexually as well. But since men "rule" the world, they have mostly demonstrated a non-caring attitude about their appearance for women and most women have "accepted" that. Grrr. Since the media is a huge teaching tool, men should be exposed to more media causing them to change their sexuality. (more emphasis put on scenes emphasizing a man's body, more scenes of men showing their bodies off) which would create a reaction in women, mold their thinking. I mean have you ever seen a slow motion scene of a man coming out of the water on the beach, and the camera zooming in on his nice pecks and flat stomach or his manly sex organs? Not very often! lol Why is that??????

Agree it's a great post by 51CD30. Some women (me) do like surprise/ unpredictability.

Why aversion? I'm paraphrasing, but Melody Lane's quote about women needing 2 things to want to have sex with their partner, emotional attachment and the prospect of pleasure.

Some comes from men not knowing how to satisfy a woman, or learning from porn (not a good teaching tool). No anticipation of pleasure eventually = sexual aversion. Women are also socialized to not complain or be assertive sexually, so there are men who have no idea their partner is not enjoying herself... at first. Then, the aversion develops.

Second, wanting to please her man comes from being in love. If the other ENs are not being met, love bank dwindles, and loss of desire to please, and for SF.

[color:#CC0000][/color] Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?


I know Dr. Harley says that if men want more sex, they must first work on showing affection. He covers that in HNHN. If SF is last on the females EN, will she go there willingly if she has a disgust for sexual intercourse?

from latest issue of Archives of Sexual Behavior



It doesn't address how they learned this, just that it does happen (with poor outcomes for both partners!) I have a hunch that this behavior is more common in younger than older women (mean age in the study was 22 yo).

My thoughts (which I believe would be MB thoughts, but am open to correction from more experienced advisors) on how to end it: follow MB program so she loves you and wants to please you, and encourage her to be radically honest about what pleases her sexually. That may take major encouragement. Old habits and all.

Emilyann,

It's not so much for my WW ( she is need of a lot of deprograming ) as it is for my 15 yr old. I don't want her to grow up with these same misconceived ideas about sex. We talk, I just wanted to make sure this is not something nature has programmed.

My WW grew up in a very strict CoC house, where kissing and hugging were not talked about. He11 was a place made for young people who had sex...and all that. She is still adverse to SF, even at our most enjoyable time, she had a disliking of SF. It was one of the things she could live without. Which is why her PA is a major obsticle for me to overcome. I needed to know if there was a learned behavior or if it was genetic. My hypothesis is it was learned.



Thanks for the study, it shows what many men believe.

Women don't usually have an aversion to sex. They have an aversion to sex with men to whom they are not emotionally attached. Women need 2 things to enjoy sex with a man, an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment.

This is why sexual problems tend to disappear when the concepts of Marriage Builders are implemented and love is restored.

ML,

I may print this and post it on the bathroom mirror.

Women don't usually have an aversion to sex. They have an aversion to sex with men to whom they are not emotionally attached. Women need 2 things to enjoy sex with a man, an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment.

This is why sexual problems tend to disappear when the concepts of Marriage Builders are implemented and love is restored.

luvinlife, I do agreee that there are lots and lots of very weak, timid women out there who allow themselves to be dominated. And sadly, we have men who are now following suit. Just go look on the Surviving an Affair forum.

My point is that women do not need "permission" to do something anymore than men needed "permission." Women can be accountable for their own failures in life, and blaming men for our failures is not a sign of strength, but weakness. There is no empowerment through victimhood.

What would we say to a man who blamed his life's failures on his wife's "dominance?" If he said he couldn't achieve because his momma-wife didn't "allow" him? And didn't hand him the resources on a silver platter? Would we go for that or would we call that man a wuss? It is the same with women. I understand there are women who behave like children who need "permission" from their big poppa daddy husbands in order to do anything, but we can't blame men for their weakness. If they choose to act like children, they have to be willing to take some accountability. In my thinking, women who act like children deserve to be treated as such.


This has no basis in reality. Men's "sexuality" is a very individual thing and most men are wired to be stimulated visually. Women are typically not stimulated visually, as evidenced by past failures of nudie magazines aimed at women. The media doesn't have the power to "mold" the emotional needs of men and women. The top emotional needs of most men is sexual fulfillment and physical appearance and for women it is affection and conversation. That has nothing to do with the media but with how our brains are wired.

I found another good one that he posted on this forum:

I actually think that issue is much less of a problem than it was a generation back. A couple decades ago, Dr. Harley had to educate women about the sexual experience. Now the women he sees are just as educated as the men.