Hi-

I was active here years ago, uh like 10 years. I don't think I have posted in 4 or 5 years.

I was the WS 12 years ago. Generally we have been in recovery. We are again going through some really hard stuff and I thought I'd come back to be reminded of the principles.

I am feeling discouraged about marriage and just feeling worn out.

Hi Clouds - I wasn't here when you were, but I'm sure others be remember you and will be along to say hi.

Do you want to share a little of what's been going on in your marriage? Why are you feeling discouraged?

Hi Clouds, welcome back! Can you describe the problem?

My H has had what I feel is an EA for 2 years, and recently had a falling out with his close "friend." He is essentially in denial and withdrawal, and does not feel that he had an EA. They were only friends. He's read the books, we've been in recovery for 10 years, so he knows the drill. I have been doing a Plan A sort of thing on him, but I am having a hard time committing to it. I feel like it is hard to conjure up enough energy to care. He is depressed, misses his "friend" and tries to be kind to me, but is just angry and morose. I would prefer to ignore him and just let him get over it, because being nice and supportive is just exhausting.

Was it an emotional affair? Do you have evidence of that? Who was this woman and how did they communicate? Do they see or speak to each other at all?

One of the basic rules of Marriage Builders is to not have opposite sex friendships outside of marriage. Are you aware of that?

I know the basic rules of Marriage Builders. I know that one rule is to not have opposite sex friendships outside of marriage. This woman was someone we both spent time with. She is a coach and we are both athletes that spend time with her. I don't think she was emotionally involved with him, I think he had an infatuation with her. I brought up that I did not like their friendship (they emailed and texted a lot, mostly about routine things like schedules, etc. -- I had access to most if not all of it). I believe him when he tells me that none if it was inappropriate, but her attention and interest is what he wanted. Now she ignores him, and he is hurt. My only evidence that it was an EA of sorts on his part is his severe reaction to them having a falling out. He acts just as if he was rejected in an EA. So I know MB has a lot of black and white rules, etc. I think this case is marginal. He broke the rules of protection, etc. That is why I am treating this like an EA, even though it is not classic.

Why did they have a falling out?
It does sound like an EA to me, he is upset about another woman that was in his life, a no no........
Are you sure there isn't any communication between them, is this person married, in a relationship.
Is the relationship between you and her still on..........

Clouds, how would you say you are doing in the romantic love department? It doesn't sound like he is getting his emotional needs in your marriage. Is he? How much UA time are you getting each week?

That is where I would focus first. Start scheduling 20+ hours per week of UA time meeting the top 4 intimate needs. That will restore the love to your marriage the FASTEST.

My concern is this friendship, though. For him to be so depressed about the estrangement tells me she was meeting enough of his top needs to create an addiction mindset. Which tells me he doesn't have very good boundaries around women. People don't just develop infatuations unless some emotional need is being met and apparently that is what happened.

Are you sure you know everything about what happened? Have you snooped?

What seems to have happened is that a couple of months ago, she got really busy with a number of things in her life. According to her and her H, my H never said anything inappropriate. I think he just pressed her to talk to him, and try to let him help her. The more he pushed for her attention (simply replying to emails on routine matters,etc), the more she got annoyed. She would not tell him what he did "wrong."

I have had a cool relationship with her from the beginning.

She is married, and I am sure there is no communication between them now. That is a source of great sorrow for my H. It is one of the things that really annoys me. If this was just a normal friendship, why all the hurt and anger from being ignored by her?

Melody-
Thanks for your replies. Those are good questions.


We are not doing well in the Romantic Love department. I agree that if he was getting all of his ENs met in our marriage, he would not need a fun female best friend outside the marriage. I have tried to tell him this for months, that we have problems if he would rather spend time with her than with me, which seems to be the case.

We have plenty of time each week for UA, but generally it is not fun. He is grumpy and miserable. He is always willing to have EN#1 filled (SF) by me, but honestly after being around Eeyore all day, I can't say I have any interest in that at all.

We are both acting selfish. I can feel that. My problem is that the only way our marriage ever seems to work well is if I give and give and give to make him happy and he'll take and take and take until I feel used up.

I came back here to MB to try to force myself out of the apathy and try to take some steps. But one of the MB principals I have always had trouble with is trying to meet H's #1 need when he is not meeting any of mine. I feel like having sex right now is dishonest on my part because I really don't feel anything at all romantic.

I suspect you are not getting the full story, Clouds. People don't become emotionally attached corresponding about non-emotional matters. That just doesn't make any sense.

Have you gone through his email?

I responded to your post over on the OT forum and I suggested there that you use this program to fall in love. That is the Marriage Builders definition of "recovery." It is to affair proof the marriage and create a romantic relationship. It is not too late to recover.

As far as your H's boundaries around other women, he was communicating with this woman outside of your marriage. THAT is where the problem began and that has to be addressed in order to recover. Somehow he became emotionally attached to this woman and I do not believe you are getting the full truth.

If I were you, I would be scouring his emails, his cell phone records, texts, etc. And perhaps even ask him for a polygraph. But his explanation of what happened does not make sense.

So what has happened that you have both fallen out of love. He WAS getting his needs met outside of marriage and not meeting your needs and vice versa.

UA time should be fun, though. You have to MAKE IT FUN. That is your job and his job. IT should be spent meeting these top 4 EN's: conversation, affection, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment.

At first, it might not be fun and will feel like work, but it is important to MAKE it fun and to stick with it until it comes naturally. That is how you restore romantic love.

Does your H admit he was in love with the OW?

Clouds, this is issue #1. He has inappropriate boundaries around women. He should have NEVER had an opposite sex friend outside of marriage. Sure, he was vulnerable to an affair because you have not been meeting his needs, but the cause of this affair was his sloppy boundaries around women.

That has to change. But I don't think you are getting the full truth about this "friendship." There is more they are not telling you.

I know this is one of the MB rules, that he should have never had an opposite sex friend outside of marriage. I have not had a male friend since our recovery 10 years ago. However, he will totally deny that it was anything inappropriate, and he will disagree that he can not have a friend who is female if he has never said or done anything with her that he would not have done if I were there.

I was a WS. I know about lying. I don't think he is lying. I think he was infatuated and was getting a need for attention filled by her that was lacking from me. Oddly, I do not think his behavior or his communications with her were inappropriate, except that it was constant and made him feel special. His attachment to it was inappropriate, and now his hurt and anger about her rejection is making him realize that it was inappropriate.

My XH had a co-worker just like you are describing. I investigated pretty thoroughly and NEVER found anything inappropriate between them, but when she left the company he was as sad as he was when his dad died! It was weird.

Then after D-day,(another woman completely) a friend of XWH's became my biggest informant...and he told me that XH was heavily infatuated with this X-co-worker but that he did not believe the co-worker even realized it. That he firmly believed that relationship stayed very professional---except in WH's head!

After a few months I called the X-co-worker and she was SHOCKED at the second life my XH had been living. She never knew that side of him. So it can happen...

Still, as Melody says, it indicates poor boundaries around opposite sex...and that ENs are off in your marriage. Hope you can get it straightened out.

I think a crucial nugget in opposite gender friendships is
do they spend time alone together?
Time having lunch, a walk, a talk in the break room, across desks with other coworkers not in the area.

That all leads to stepping over boundaries.

Clouds, allowing another woman to meet his needs is inappropriate. Being infatuated with another woman is inappropriate. That is not even a negotiable issue in marriage. And whether he agrees or not, having opposite sex friendships is inappropriate. You can see where that leads. The fact that he is in withdrawal from this woman says all there is to say. If your husband doesn't understand this, then I would show him Dr Harley's article on the dangers of opposite sex friendships.

This forum is full of affairs that began just this way.

I would show him this article by Dr Harley: Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?