Her original posts are over on "Other topics". I believe that she's getting tired of listening to me spout, so perhaps some of your other folks with experience can help.

My momma said "If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all."<P>But perhaps you can explain something to me. Do you feel better about yourself when you put other people down??<p>[This message has been edited by KarmaGrrl (edited August 19, 1999).]

So K shouldn't have given his 2 cents, because it wasn't sugar coated? <P>Woe to us who can't listen to advice unless it's "nice".

Exactly who was put down & how? Their actions were the only thing I read in which a negative tone was discussed.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Crytalle -<P>I am 100% in agreement with you and all for being truthful and to the point with any communication. I do not believe insults are ever justified or acceptable. Is this the kind of world you want to live in? Oops, forgot you live in NYC and things are different there. I absolutely love NY and even the NY attitude, but I wouldn't chose it for myself.<P>Chris -<P>If I said "Chris, you are a nosy busybody who needs mind his own business and get a life. WHY are you jumping in between my question to K which doesn't have anything to do with you, are you really that bored?" would that be an insult? I say that it is! But according to you I'm only commenting on your actions and not your person. <P>I apologize for my comment to you Chris, it was only done to illustrate my point. Now am I completely off track here with what is and what isn't an insult? Correct me please if I am wrong.

KarmaGrrl, I still don't see how inloveonline was insulted. She just got some honest advice from someone who'd been there, and after all, isn't that why we're all here?<P>In her other post, it looked like she wanted support in carrying on her affair. Well, it's hardly likely that she'll find a lot of that here. What K said was just good, down to earth advice and she could take it or leave it. He didn't insult her.<P>I'll ignore your veiled NYC "putdown". But who's insulting who, now?<P>

Water off my back. Nosey busy body? Perhaps, but it is a public forum and it is for support of marriages. If the marriage is not working & you (or others) have tried everything possible to save it, then get out of the marriage. If a couple agree to have an "open marriage" then so be it. But again this is a Marriage Builders forum so I think one will receive little if no support fo rany thing other than that.<P>I was only pointing out, IMO, K did not put anybody down. He was pointing out ways to fix the problem without hurting everyone involved even more than they already are. Plus they would benefit greatly from following the advice he has given.

Hey guys, I've seen trolls before and it looks like KarmaGrrl's one. She's merely trying to irk people and has fun making others pissed off. Note that K has never responded to KarmaGrrl. He knows to stay away from that. Don't encourage her.<P>--airheart

airheart- <P>Does it make YOU feel better to put me down? <P>Crystalle- <P>The only reason I wouldn't choose to live in NYC is because I really hate snow. I was being honest in saying I love NYC & the NYC attitude - no veiled insult intended. <P>Chris-<P>You never answered my question, but you did say it was duck water so I guess it was an insult and it could have the potential to hurt you if you let it. An insult, by my definition, is anything that leaves the other people feeling lessened and injured by words. Doesn't matter if it refers to the action or the person, that's just semantics.

K,<P>I read that ridiculous thread. What a couple of pieces of work!! I'd read Wonder's posts before and, well, I'll just leave that one alone! I wouldn't waste any more keystrokes on those two. They don't want to hear anything except affirmations to what they are doing. Honestly, for the life of me I cannot understand why they choose to post on a marriage builders site. There are other sites for people having affairs where they'd get the affirmation they're looking for.<P>Karmagrrl,<P>Sigh, Knock off the instigating, will you? We're all adults, there's no place for that nonsense here.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Yes, they know and most probably understand the basic tenents of this site. But, some people really enjoy causing chaos. It gives them some sort of perverse thrill.

KarmaGrrl:<P>I responded to you over on the other thread. But let me answer your question.<P>No, I feel terrible when I put someone down---when I have been intentionally (or unintentionally) cruel, mean-spirited, or condesending. I've always felt this way, and my dear counselor (Steve Harley) has helped train me not do exhibit the "thoughtless" behaviors that hurt, even though they may be well-meaning. I'm sure that I'm not perfect, and I don't think that I am---even though I have been accused of that.<P>As I mentioned in my posts, I escalated the "bluntness" quotient as I went along. I have several posts to inloveonline over there. I did this for two reasons:<P>1. She wasn't understanding the point.<P>2. She was getting some very self-destructive advice from others.<P>You seem to feel that I insulted and was derogatory to inloveonline. I didn't go over all my posts with a fine-tooth comb, but I don't recall any name-calling. When I say "fantasy", "needy", "lack of perspective", "self-destructive"... yeah, those have negative connotations. But she's having an affair---and that's NOT a positive thing to do.<P>KarmaGrrl: you're young, and from what you post, you appear to be very idealistic and stick up for the underdog. I think that's great---I'm very similar (well, not the young part anymore). I do support inloveonline, and I do care about what happens to her. I don't spend the hours here because I don't have anything better to do---and I'm trying to cut back on my time here and be selective to people who I think can benefit most from my advice and experience. For what it's worth, inloveonline could be my wife. And I saw what my wife went through, and I don't wish that on inloveonline.

Well,<P>I just went back and read the entire saga that Inloveonline posted in the "Other Topics" forum. I've got to say that it's amazing to me the different spin people put on words. I read K's first reply and couldn't find a negative comment in there. Of course, it wasn't directed at me, so maybe if I was in Inloveonline's position, I might have taken offense to it as well. It certainly wasn't what she wanted to hear.<P>For what it's worth, K, I agree 100% with your advice. I don't know if Inloveonline and Wonder ever got your point that it's okay to want to be happy, even if it is with someone else, but just to do it in the right order. It amazes me that people can see only what they want to see in post like yours.<P>I'm glad I read that stuff, because it reminds me of the lengths to which people will go to justify something they KNOW in their hearts to be wrong. It almost seemed as if Wonder was more interested in hurting her husband with her affair the way he hurt her with his alcoholism.<P>Well, just some musings. Take it for what it's worth.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited August 20, 1999).]

K,<BR>I posted here because you told me to. You said to post here and see what kind of advice I get. I did and you are not happy with me? <P>I do understand what you are saying, and for the most, I agree with you. But at the same time I am a shallow person when it comes to the feelings OM allows me to have. I thought we had come to come kind of agreement, silent, I will admit, but I thought we had started to understand the others thoughts. I guess I was wrong. Instead you invited more advice. What if I am your wife? I am not, because no way would my H be as mature about this as you are. Maybe Iam looking for some type of justification for my actions. I do not know why I posted here. I guess I am trying to understand my actions. If you would have told me 2 years ago that I would have an affair,,,,I would have said no way!! That I would not be able to look my kids in the face if I were having one, that no way would I ever trust someone enough to give myself to them without reservation. And hey, the after kids body does not look like the before kids body!!! But all of those reasons proved to be wrong. (body is not too bad!) I am not saying or have I ever said what I am doing is right. I know it is wrong. Wrong on all fronts. And.......yes, I feel guilty towards his wife.....even thought she has told him to leave her alone....she has not idea I am out here. That her husband turns to me when he needs a friend. I pushed him towards her once, got out of the pictured told him to talk to her like he talks to me..........he came back, said she was not or never could be me. caged bird story. We live four hours apart.....so our husband/wife will never find out unless we tell them. And.....I will never tell for fear of H's reaction. If you have a question for me personally, I can give you my email address, or one you can use that does not have my name on it. I have always taken pride in being a good friend, a good person and now I have destroyed that image too. My kids, myself, OM, his kids, my H, his W are the ones who are going to pay. How did you find out about your W's affair. Did she tell you? What was your first reaction? be honest your first gut reaction? If my husband came today and told me he was having an affair, I would be so releived. and I felt that way before mine started. I hate sex with him. It makes me sick to my stomach, I think about the kids, my housework, the bills, I watch TV, I do anything I can while we are in bed to keep from the reality that we are having sex. This is not fair to him, I know. Why does he stay? I have a lot of questions but really never any true answers. I hear you K. Do you hear me?<BR>Thanks for taking the time to read my post. maybe I should go someplace else and read instead of here on this site.<BR>

inloveline,<P>Your story is really sad. I feel so much for you. I think K DOES hear what you are saying. He really cares about your situation and he wants to help. Don't push him away or his advice. It's very VERY hard to hear.<P>For what it's worth, I don't blame you at all for finding someone else. You definitely deserve to be happy, and it sounds like your OM is a really nice guy. People have affairs for a lot less reason than you (me for instance). None of us are terrible people, we're just human and we reach out for what we need.<P>Due to the very real danger of violence in your situation, I think you need to make some sort of plans (however long that takes) to get away before something terrible happens. I wish you the best of luck in that. And I hope you are able to eventually become happy with the OM after you both have gotten out of your current relationships if it is truly hopeless that they will recover. I've read your story and understand that it sounds pretty hopeless on your end. Not so sure about OM's.<P>Anyway, good luck! I have one last suggestion maybe -- if you could somehow save K's posts to you, print them out, or whatever, then take them out and read them from time to time, you can see the soundness of his advice and recognize the caring.<P>--airheart

inloveonline,<BR>I posted a response in the other forum. K and others including myself are trying to look at things objectively. What I mean my objectively is to look at the facts without emotion as best you possibly can. I also mean looking at it from God's eyes. God is the parent we are the children. You say that you are a Chrisitan. Would a Christian do what you say that you are doing? I am not judging you. I just want you to step back and do what is in the best interest of all concerned. You are currently going through a great deal of pain. Do you want your children to have to endure that pain when they become adults. Children do what they see their parents and other significant role models do. The parents are the primary ones they model themselves after. <P>Your husband doesn't know any better because his parents and other key role models did not set a very good example. He doesn't relate to you because he doesn't know how. This is where you have to communicate with him to let him know. <P>True love is a decision. It is not a feeling. True love comes from God and is unconditional. True love is longsuffering and doesn't expect anything in return. We need to focus on the One who loves us: Jesus. He died on the cross for our sins and this is how we pay Him back for Him doing such a loving jesture for us all. I am finding that as Gary Smalley says in his book 'Making Love Last Forever' that we are trying to have people fill our battery pack when God is the only battery that will meet our needs. I truly believe that once we get our focus on Him everything will work out fine. He did not say that there would be no more pain in this part of life. The no more pain and suffering is not going to happen until after Satan has no more power.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Inloveonline;<P>I posted this thread to supplement your own, becuase there's more details to your story on the other board, and I thought that people would benefit from seeing it and having a fuller perspective.<P>I hear you---first of all, you're not shallow. You're in a bad situation, and you don't see a way out. Again, virtually EVERYTHING that you've said here mimics my wife's response. Including:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...no way would my H be as mature about this as you are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can't possibly know your husband's response to this news, until you give it to him. I know what you're expecting, and if you were to do this, I'd have you prepare for the worse. But you really don't know. If you had told me that I would have behaved the way I had, that I would have been able to deal with an ongoing affair that was out in the open, that I would have separated, that I would have dealt with a child not biologically mine... well, the answer is that I could have never imagined me dealing with it as well as I did.<P>Some of that is "inside" me. But a lot of it was the resources that I used to deal with it, too.<P>Let me tell you a bit about my situation. My wife and I had two kids, and we started to grow apart. She had a successful career, but stayed at home after #2. I encouraged her to do some independent things, and she would take advantage of this. But she had fallen out of love with me because of treatment ("abusive") that I had given her when we lost our jobs (around the birth of #2). She stopped meeting my needs for sex and affection. And I would support her on her "outings", but then when she got back, she felt "ugh---I'm back with him". And here I am being supportive, and I'm getting nothing out of it. So I punish with more "lovebusting" behavior. And the cycle continued, and continued...<P>When I got a computer at home, she discovered the net. She found someone online who shared her interests. It started out as a friendship, and then it became more. They shared their marital problems with each other. They spent more time on-line with each other. Fate ended up having us move 1200 miles for a new job; to within 100 miles of him. The affair became physical. He ended up discovering his wife was having an affair, and kicked her out. My wife was supportive of him, she'd take our kids to visit. <P>She became more withdrawn, moody, and angry. And I didn't get it... until she acted so suspiciously on chat late at night that I checked the cache files (she was oblivious about these).<P>My reaction: shock. Complete and utter shock. Like someone had dropped a ton weight on my chest. I immediately showed her these files---full of how much my children loved the OM and his family, how great their sex was, how my wife never loved me and married me for the wrong reasons... all the "stuff". <P>She cried, and we discussed getting into counseling. But I was in shock. I stayed in that state of shock and denial for a couple months. And she had the nerve to leave 5 days after the discovery to go to the OM---the trip was planned and the kids were "counting" on it. I let her go---I had already discovered Marriage Builders. I had started counseling with Steve Harley. I saw my behaviors clearly illustrated in "Lovebusters", and I knew that I had my work cut out for me. That was the start of a long process.<P>Now, let me tell you how I felt about my wife right before I discovered the affair. I HATED her. I didn't understand why she was doing what she was---and it infurated me. I imagined killing her in horrible ways---these were dark, black images. And I'm not a violent man. She ended up being taken to the hospital one morning by ambulance---she had a reaction to OTC meds (and the stress of the affair was killing her, I bet). My father-in-law was visiting, and he went with her while I was at work. My thoughts at work:<P>"Maybe I'd be better off if she died".<P>That's it. Horrible. But once I UNDERSTOOD what the reasons were for her behaviors, I could start to address the problems. I haven't had a hateful thought since. I went through dealing with her affair with very little anger---I saw how self-destructive that path had been, and I found other ways to deal with it.<P>That's my story. And part of my concern for you is that your husband is probably feeling the same bewildering anger towards you that I felt towards my wife. Once I had a problem I could face (even an affair), it gave me something productive to do. I really believe that you should give your husband the same benefit.

In the past 48hrs. in my city, 8 people have been killed due to domestic violence. Let me spell that so you don't think it's a typo: eight people! <P>One woman who was murdered reported in May her H slapped her and she had a restraining order. He slipped thru the background check and bought a gun and used it to kill her and then himself. <P>Inloveonline mentioned her H held a gun to her head. Now we can encourage her to be 100% honest with her H and tell her she doesn't really know her H's reaction, but she could end up being wrong...DEAD wrong. I'm going to trust after 16years together she knows her H and can predict his reaction. <P>Women don't usually lie about these things. If anything they tend to downplay the abuse because of their own feelings of shame. I find it hard to believe a man could be totally nice, wonderful and understanding, but have one episode of holding a gun to her head and that's all. Doesn't add up.<P>My dad shot and killed his first W. My mother suffered alot of abuse from him as well including numerous death threats. My sister was nearly shot (gun jammed) by her H and he spent many years in jail for attempted murder. I'm not rooting for the underdog or encouraging immoral behavior. I just want inloveonline to be safe. <P>If it offends so MBer's for me to encourage a scared abused woman to run and get help and be safe and not depend on her OM to rescue her, then sorry. Just scroll past my posts and continue on. <P>

KarmaGrrl,<P>I really don't think people are offended by your intentions to help inloveonline. Not at all. What they ARE offended by is your tone and you're meanness. I don't understand why you keep misreading everyone's post, unless you just WANT to cause trouble (the classic definition of an internet "troll"). Obviously you have TONS of your own issues. What you have gone through must've been terrible if it is indeed true.<P>Your last paragraph says it all. Inloveonline needs to get herself out of her situation and not rely on the OM to be the knight in shining armor. I am in complete agreement with you and I don't really share K's optimism that her husband might not react bad.<P>You need to chill a little, friend.<P>--airheart

The first thing some of you have assumed is OM is a jerk. Well, news flash.....he is not. He is real, infact he is one of the few men I know that are actually a man. <BR>K, I believe you are a man. I am still impressed with your forgiveness. But see you believe in God, and I know that when he works through you, forgiveness can emerge from places we are not expecting. My H does not believe there is a God. I have even prayed for God to come into his life. I know that sometimes answers to prayer takes time. But I am slowly running out.<P>The people on this board, my brother, my sister, and my Mom, and my mother-n-law are the only people who know of the abuse that it is in my marriage. I do not know why I choice to disclose it here either, but I did. think that being in a connor and fighting my way out took over.<P>I sometimes think I can endure to save face. That is when OM was let into my life. I decided if my husband wanted everyone to think he was a great husband, dad, I could play that game too. <P>OM puts my feelings before his own. He goes great links to make sure I am ok. I questioned his personality for a long time because I hate men. I researched the information he gave me on the web, I have spent up to five hours a day, and at least five hours a week on the phone with him, we email about 10 times a day. we see each other. He sends me gifts to a PO Box, he finacially pays for the phone calls. He is my knight in shinning armour. I am sorry if some of you can not see that. He makes me feel safe. I can exhale when I am with him. My kids are my life and I hate that someday the may know what I really am. Kind of late now. I never want them to be in a marriage like this. I really do not care if they marry at all. I wish we were catholic, I would encourage them to be a preist......just joking. but I am going to tell them over and over again, not to marry until they are at least 30. <BR>K, <BR>I do respect you. Heck.....I even kind of like you!!!!!!! I am smiling at you again!<P>I am sorry for the pain you went through and can now see why my story has effected you like it has. I would like to talk to your wife. <P>Let's say, just in fantasy, I tell H about OM, what do I say.........hey, honey I am love with this 45 year old man and he is the guy I have been waiting for all my life?????????