Recovery is impossible unless all contact ends. Not even debatable. I have been here for 10 years and have never seen a marriage recover while the affairees were in contact. However, I have seen UNTOLD resumed affairs and false recoveries over the years.

Dr Harley, clinical psychologist, and founder of Marriage Builders, has been doing this for 40 years and he says it is "impossible." It is impossible.

Listen to this radio clip with Dr Harley: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=652

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Lifechoice post on THE AFFAIR ADDICTION http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2048341&fpart=1



I can certainly attest to this. My situation is a prime example of what not to do. I kept myself stuck in withdrawal for over 2 years because I continued to work with my FOM. In these 2 years I had no desire to get back into the A, I just couldn't break free of my addiction.

After I ended the A I learned about the addiction part of it and agreed it was a huge part of it. The scary part of the addiction is during the 2 years FOM and I worked together I didn't even realize how much I was still addicted to him. We did our best to remain professional, but the addiction was still there and kept me very stuck. I couldn't get over certain aspects of the A, but couldn't figure out why. (duh). I thought I had a good handle on it, but in all reality I didn't. It wasn't until after FOM left our employer and moved out of town that I finally could get through withdrawal. I should also add it was this bad for me and I only worked about 6 days a month. I can only imagine it would be much worse for someone who works with the AP on a full-time basis.

Now every time I read where AP's are still working together I just cringe. I wasted 2 years of my time in withdrawal and at the same time for one of the years trying to rebuild my marriage. Talk about a lot of mental anguish and conflict.

My advice to everyone from a BTDT POV, a WS needs to get as far away from the AP as they can.

LC


No contact, lifechoice http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659249&fpart=3

Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.

I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.

My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.

In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work, FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.

We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.

Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)

"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."

OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK.

I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?

Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.

It's funny how many WS's and even BS's talk about how impossible it is to get away from the OP...

It's always a choice.

It only takes about 5 minutes to see the difference between a straight-up WS, and a WS who is ready to change.

Again and again and again I see WS's who are reluctant to change, or BS's who are reluctant to make waves about their WS's insistence on contact.

YOUR MARRIAGE WILL NEVER EVER EVER HEAL WHILE THERE IS EVEN A SMIDGE OF A WHIFF OF CONTACT.

End of story.

Period.

What you do with that information is up to you. Ignoring it is the fastest path to a nervous breakdown as just about any that I know.

Without a doubt No Contact For Life should be the mantra for all recovering marriages.

But what do you do when the wayward is so deeply fogged up that he thinks the OW is his 'soulmate' and leaves the BS for her?

I have told my WH that I want him to stop seeing her, for him to change jobs and to focus on marriage recovery but he just tells me that it's nothing to do with me.

As far as he's concerned, our marriage is over, and he's going to live (and work) happily ever after with POSOW....

Maryse, remind me, please: did you expose the A? Have you asked him to leave the house? Have you created any conflict in the affair that would help to de-fog him? What you've described is very typical with waywards. They all think they've found their soul-mate, the one who 'really listens' to them, blah blah blah.

I exposed in October, to his manager, a bunch of colleagues and the HR department. He has not spoken to me since, but then again, I've been plan B-ing it.
I moved out of our rented apartment, and back into our marital home.
I feel better there, at least I have friends around me, and it is home rather than the unhomely environment of our work related rental property.

I did receive a letter from a lawyer threatening with an injunction should I 'continue to harrass' him via email.
The letter also stated he has instructed them to proceed with the Divorce Petition.

Today I have written a heartfelt letter to his parents asking for their help in trying to de-fog J.
They are currently of the 'he's-a-grown-man-and-he-makes-his- own-choices' school of thought.

But I have learned so much about affairs, their dynamics, the associated behaviours etc I felt that I needed to tell them.
To try and make them understand that what he has become is not who he used to be.

Unfortunatley, here in the UK people seem to have less strong opinions on adultery than in the US. The morality of it (or lack of) rarely gets called into question. Same with the commitment to the marriage vows taken, the morality attached to these (for me, at least) seems to be of less and less value to others. Very much a laissez-fair approach; if they want to mess up, it's their life, let them get on with it.

Thanks for the update, Maryse!

Then you go into Plan B.

That's where I'll stay then. In the dark.

I reckon he quite likes me there, in dark plan B. Means he doesn't have to deal with me, or any of the ugly cr*p that his affair has brought into our lives.

Most marriages affected by an affair should move:

What typically happens in Plan B is the affair crumbles because it is exposed to the light of day. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so if it is not a secret anymore, it is not fun! Affairs usually crumble because the traits that made them possible, dishonesty, selfishness and thoughtlessness, eventually destroy it.

Do they not then feel entitled (and free to do so) to move it up a notch and go for the fully 'out in the open' relationship?

This is where I think they are now, though I do not believe for a moment it's going to last as it was all built on fantasy and fairy dust.

I just hope that their 'relationship' crashes and burns. Soon.

Exactly!

A move into the open, whether voluntary or involuntary (with exposure) still puts tremendous pressure on the very foundation of the A, which is little more than filthy gossamer.

ITA with moving - for most BS's, that should be near the top of their list of boundaries to consider R.

ITA with moving?

I don't think this thread was intended to address the situation of an active WS who won't end his affair. I think it is being sidetracked by the discussion of Maryse's H's ongoing affair.

I think the thread should be addressing the situation where D Day has taken place and the affair is, in theory, over, with the married couple choosing to recover their marriage, yet for some reason, it is claimed that it is impossible for the WS to have no further contact with the OP.

We have many reason cited on this board, from time to time, for why the WS cannot achieve NC. Most common, it seems to me, is that they must meet or email because of work.

BSs sometimes allow the WS to meet the OP through work, claiming that, because the affair is dead as a doornail, the couple can forget about it; there is no chance of it rekindling. And/or, they claim that because the (F)WS meets the OP in tightly controlled circumstances - for example, only ever in group meetings - and phones or texts the BS to confirm that the meeting is over and they are no longer in contact, this is sufficient protection against a rekindling/false recovery.

Such thinking - not to say excuses and desperate grasping at straws - is dangerous. It is likely to lead the WS back into the affair, and when he or she decides to recommence this, the BS won't be told, despite all the transparency measures in the world.

We've seen affairs restart with the slightest opportunity. I can think of one poster, for example, who had a D Day and, it seemed at the time, successfully killed the affair, yet his wife had to attend one meeting - only one, once - in the presence of the OP. They were not alone in the room, and yet from that one meeting, the WS left the BS and her teenaged daughter and went to live with the AP. She never looked back.

The BS does not know how addicted the WS is. The BS does not know the strength of the WS's feelings - they only have the WS's word for this, and the BS has seen what the WS is capable of already. An OP is always a threat to the marriage, and should never be encountered after recovery commences. Anyone who has experienced or read about false recoveries must surely know this.

Means I Totally Agree with moving. If that's what you were asking.

Then-WH resumed C in an even more nebulous way.

They no longer worked together, as OW had gotten fired (for nothing to do with the A).

Because OW still knew where he worked, she left a pitiful note on his car, begging to just hear his voice, to "help her heal".

A person who is serious about NC will not just change their phone number and email. They will change their lives, habits, patterns, and become INACCESSIBLE to the OP.

Very few of us are "fortunate" enough to have the FOP already living several thousand miles away, or better yet, in another country.

Most of us need to move in order to gain the peace of mind that there will be no meetings, no contact...accidental or otherwise.