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the idea someone had to have someone hold it for you is good.
Does the cast stir something in you? I mean is it just what happened or what she's worried about might be caused by it being around (some kind of sexual thing)? None of this is relevant, and you are doing Amy and Schlag a disservice by trying to psychoanalyse her feelings about the cast and his feelings for wanting to keep it. None of that matters. Neither the supposed illogic of her request nor the irrelevance of Schlag's sexual impulses matter. Sure it does. It matters because what may be a trigger now, may not be down the road. For either of them... If it was a sexual impulse thing, just trash it. If it was a trigger (like I had looking at pics of my kids during the A timeframe and wanting to throw them away), then it is highly relevant. We need to remember that Amy is divorcing Schlag. I think that this might have been forgotten, and some of you are responding as if this is a couple in recovery, where POJA should be used. They are not, and it is irrelevant to Amy right now. If Schlag decides that he has justification for sticking to his guns, because Amy is wrong to ask for what she wants here, she will not go back to the marriage. She has already left it; remember that. I have not forgotten. I also have not forgotten that she is giving schlag the opportunity to win her back after the D. Just as, even for a couple in recovery, POJA should not be used to decide that affair mementos must go, neither should it be used as a way of getting Schlag to do nothing. He must, if he wants to save his marriage, drop the independent behaviour and act on Amy's wishes. No one's suggested he do nothing. In fact we are encouraging him to think things through and not "just do". I agree, he needs to drop the IB. Not suggesting he doesn't. In fact, POJA'ing if she's willing is not IB, it is a joint consideration.She is divorcing him; once again, remember that. If he is happy for that to happen, or if he merely accepts its inevitability, then Schlag can fulfil his own desires and ignore Amy's, but if he is fighting to bring her back as he says he is, then he must do as she asks and he must not disrespectfully judge her by telling her that she does not know what she really wants, or act independently by overriding her express wishes about an affair trigger. Again, no one has suggested this (to my knowledge). Remember that restitution has to be fair restitution. The cast isn't an affair item. It was something they did together. Hence the suggestion they openly and honestly discuss the possibility of a POJA (which is not one person convincing another, but both jointly coming to an enthusiastic agreement on it).You are not helping him win her back by giving him cod-psychoanalytic reasons for disregarding her wishes. If you feel the advice is not MB advice (you know, POJA-ing) notify a moderator.
CVcv, you are trying to win here. That is pointless. Your advice is just plain wrong. Drop it, please, and stop trying to win the argument. There is no honour involved in defending your wrongful position to the death. If you want to help this poster - or any poster - you need to base your advice on what Dr Harley recommends and stop using folk wisdom. When somebody has had an affair, POJA is suspended for a variety of topics. It is brought back into use when the marriage is on the road to recovery. Circumstances in which POJA is suspended include exposure, separation and demands made regarding the end of the affair and the BSs willingness to try recovery. Once Amy and Schlag are back together POJA applies, but in the short run he is going to have to accommodate wishes to an extraordinary degree. If she wants him to get rid of triggers, or something like the cast that is now associated in her mind with his unpleasant sexual appetite, he has to get rid of it. It's that simple. POJA does not apply. Schlag has to move heaven and earth to win his wife back right now, and deciding on her behalf to keep the cast because it might not be a trigger later on is wrong. You don't have to win this one, cv. This is not about you.
BW
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the idea someone had to have someone hold it for you is good.
Does the cast stir something in you? I mean is it just what happened or what she's worried about might be caused by it being around (some kind of sexual thing)? None of this is relevant, and you are doing Amy and Schlag a disservice by trying to psychoanalyse her feelings about the cast and his feelings for wanting to keep it. None of that matters. Neither the supposed illogic of her request nor the irrelevance of Schlag's sexual impulses matter. Sure it does. It matters because what may be a trigger now, may not be down the road. For either of them... If it was a sexual impulse thing, just trash it. If it was a trigger (like I had looking at pics of my kids during the A timeframe and wanting to throw them away), then it is highly relevant. We need to remember that Amy is divorcing Schlag. I think that this might have been forgotten, and some of you are responding as if this is a couple in recovery, where POJA should be used. They are not, and it is irrelevant to Amy right now. If Schlag decides that he has justification for sticking to his guns, because Amy is wrong to ask for what she wants here, she will not go back to the marriage. She has already left it; remember that. I have not forgotten. I also have not forgotten that she is giving schlag the opportunity to win her back after the D. Just as, even for a couple in recovery, POJA should not be used to decide that affair mementos must go, neither should it be used as a way of getting Schlag to do nothing. He must, if he wants to save his marriage, drop the independent behaviour and act on Amy's wishes. No one's suggested he do nothing. In fact we are encouraging him to think things through and not "just do". I agree, he needs to drop the IB. Not suggesting he doesn't. In fact, POJA'ing if she's willing is not IB, it is a joint consideration.She is divorcing him; once again, remember that. If he is happy for that to happen, or if he merely accepts its inevitability, then Schlag can fulfil his own desires and ignore Amy's, but if he is fighting to bring her back as he says he is, then he must do as she asks and he must not disrespectfully judge her by telling her that she does not know what she really wants, or act independently by overriding her express wishes about an affair trigger. Again, no one has suggested this (to my knowledge). Remember that restitution has to be fair restitution. The cast isn't an affair item. It was something they did together. Hence the suggestion they openly and honestly discuss the possibility of a POJA (which is not one person convincing another, but both jointly coming to an enthusiastic agreement on it).You are not helping him win her back by giving him cod-psychoanalytic reasons for disregarding her wishes. If you feel the advice is not MB advice (you know, POJA-ing) notify a moderator.
CVcv, you are trying to win here. That is pointless. Your advice is just plain wrong. Drop it, please, and stop trying to win the argument. There is no honour involved in defending your wrongful position to the death. If you want to help this poster - or any poster - you need to base your advice on what Dr Harley recommends and stop using folk wisdom. When somebody has had an affair, POJA is suspended for a variety of topics. It is brought back into use when the marriage is on the road to recovery. Circumstances in which POJA is suspended include exposure, separation and demands made regarding the end of the affair and the BSs willingness to try recovery. Once Amy and Schlag are back together POJA applies, but in the short run he is going to have to accommodate wishes to an extraordinary degree. If she wants him to get rid of triggers, or something like the cast that is now associated in her mind with his unpleasant sexual appetite, he has to get rid of it. It's that simple. POJA does not apply. Schlag has to move heaven and earth to win his wife back right now, and deciding on her behalf to keep the cast because it might not be a trigger later on is wrong. You don't have to win this one, cv. This is not about you. Wow ! Sugar, this sounds like it is something personal for you not just to help Amy. 
Me -BS 40
Him - FWH 34 (dtl)
3 D-Days from 12/25/10 to 01/06/11
NC - 01/09/11
02/20/12 done beating my head on that wall.
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If it is a shared possession, it should be POJA'd IMO. It should *not* be an opportunity for a LB. Instead of boxing it, he should have asked her to POJA it.
I understand Amy's pain. She does need to be encouraged that she will need to exercise some discipline herself. Amy's pain (as understandable as it is), is not license to do whatever... She does need to be challenged on that. Maybe Schlag's not the best person though.... Maybe we should be encouraging her on her thread if she still posts.
CV This is not something that should be POJA'd at all. This is an affair trigger that needs to be destroyed. Amy should NOT be using the POJA with him since they are not in recovery. He is at a critical place where he stands to lose it all because of his previous thoughtlessness of her feelings; being MORE thoughtless now is not going to help his marriage. This is really a simple open and shut case and she should not be challenged. Getting rid of this trigger helps SCHLAG too. He would be crazy to want to keep such a trigger around. There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ITA. The cast has to go. It is, and always will be, a trigger for Amy. Time isn't going to erase that. This is not a POJA item. If it's hidden for years and then is brought back out, her first response will be a trigger response.
The cast has to go.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Wow ! Sugar, this sounds like it is something personal for you not just to help Amy. Wow! LD, that sounds like you are making out that this is personal for me, so that you can discredit my advice. 
BW
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Wow ! Sugar, this sounds like it is something personal for you not just to help Amy. I have no doubt that her passion comes from the same place as mine: a strong desire to see Amy and Schlag make it. That is why it is frustrating to read some of the advice being given here. It is a needless distraction.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Once Amy and Schlag are back together POJA applies, but in the short run he is going to have to accommodate wishes to an extraordinary degree. If she wants him to get rid of triggers, or something like the cast that is now associated in her mind with his unpleasant sexual appetite, he has to get rid of it.
It's that simple. POJA does not apply. Schlag has to move heaven and earth to win his wife back right now, and deciding on her behalf to keep the cast because it might not be a trigger later on is wrong. QFT Triggers are non-negotiable, and any WS serious about recovery will not hesitate in the slightest bit to destroy EVERY trigger. You can't change your mind about triggers. The triggered memories and feelings do not go away on their own. Amy has no control over how this cast makes her feel. And if Schlag insists on keeping it, their marriage is pretty much doomed to failure. She's not willing to remain in a marriage full of triggers, and rightly so. The choice is clear: the lifeless cast of a pregnant body, or a recovered marriage with the real, breathing woman.
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No not at all. It just really sounded like this is something you dealt with. Sorry if it sounded like I was discrediting you. I guess things just come out wrong in posts. Wow ! Sugar, this sounds like it is something personal for you not just to help Amy. Wow! LD, that sounds like you are making out that this is personal for me, so that you can discredit my advice.
Me -BS 40
Him - FWH 34 (dtl)
3 D-Days from 12/25/10 to 01/06/11
NC - 01/09/11
02/20/12 done beating my head on that wall.
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No not at all. It just really sounded like this is something you dealt with. Sorry if it sounded like I was discrediting you. I guess things just come out wrong in posts. I appreciate the clarification, LD. I find that it's best not to try and analyse the poster's reason's for posting what they did. I think it's a bit different if you feel that the board is being played or that people are just here to cause trouble, but when someone gives advice - especially when it is someone like me who has been here a while, helping most days, what matters is whether the advice stands on its own merits. Is it based on Dr Harley's advice? Does it take into account the facts that the thread starter has given? Tackle the advice, whether you think it is good or bad, not the poster's motives or emotional state of mind. You might just guess those things wrong, as you did with me, and anyway, it just doesn't matter. And when you questions someone's motive or state of mind, it has the effect of saying "you're only saying that because..." In other words, no reasonable, disinterested, intelligent person would have said what you just said. "You're only saying that because you are emotionally scarred", or worse still, "bitter"! I do have an interest in telling Schlag what I did, and that is that I believe in using the MB programme to end the affair and restore the marriage. Whilst Schlag's affair has ended, I don't see how he can possibly restore the marriage if he takes the directly opposite action from the one his shattered BW has expressly asked him to carry out, for her, and worse still, if he says that he is doing this in her best interests, when she has clearly told him what her interests are. If a poster thinks I am using the MB concepts wrongly then they should say so, and we can discuss that. I would HATE to give out a wrongful interpretation of MB advice, and if anyone shows me where I have gone wrong I will apologise and correct my statements, or back out, or whatever seems appropriate. But please don't try and analyse my state of mind or my history. It shouldn't be relevant, and I don't think it was here.
BW
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Schlag,
How is it going as far as talking to Dr. Harley again? And are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show?
It sounds like you disappeared for awhile, then came back when you needed us to try to smooth over Amy's emotional reactions on this issue.
We're not going to do that for you. Your redemption involves you changing the way you live so that you don't provoke these negative emotional reactions in the future.
It is not Amy who needs to change (i.e., realize that she is making a short-sighted decision and might want to have this object back some day), it is YOU who needs to change. Your victim is lying on the ground bleeding, and if she screams that she needs you to get rid of something because it hurts to much to have it, I suggest you do so ASAP.
You are in no position to negotiate, buddy. No position at all. When you balk at these things, you show Amy that you are not coming to her, hat in hand, promising to do "whatever it takes" to radically transform your life and your marriage.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Schlag, I just really emphathize with Amy strongly here.
The problem is that Amy NEEDS YOU to emphasize with her.
I think you need to understand what you look like to Amy over this issue. When you do, I think you'll smash that cast immediately.
I don't think there's anything unusual about a man being sexually aroused over pregnancy. And to be honest, it's typical for a man to feel sexually responsive towards many women. But if that man wants a happy life and a happy marriage, he had better behave like a man, not an animal, and protect his wife from his own sex drive by practicing complete sexual exclusivity. I mean so complete that if he ever feels attraction to another woman, he RUNS THE OTHER WAY. Because while it's somewhat typical for a man to feel this way, it's extremely offensive to his wife.
The cast is not a memento of your child or of a special time in life. Not at all. It is a nude picture of your wife.
And it's not just a tasteful nude picture of your wife, one that some people might think is completely appropriate within the privacy of marriage.
No - it's as if you became interested in an unusual and degrading sexual practice, forced your wife to engage in it for your pleasure, took a picture to permanently memorialize the event for your pleasure, and now she regrets the event.
To Amy's emotions, the cast is all about arousing you sexually by her pregnancy, at her expense. She no longer wants her pregnancy to arouse you sexually, because now she feels that this sexual arousal makes her just like all the other pregnant women you degraded yourself with. You may not have had actual sex with any other pregnant women, but by looking at pictures and thinking about hiring people, you degraded yourself, sir. And you put Amy into a group with all of those other women, which makes her feel worse than cheap. Every time she sees that object of sexual arousal, that "nude picture," she feels that she means no more to you than those woman. This offends and disgusts her. It wounds her psychologically, and if this object continues to exist against her will, it will probably cause mental and health problems for her for the rest of her life.
So -- are you still going to try to change your wife's mind about this, or do you think maybe it'd be better to just give your victim the care she is crying out for, and quit second-guessing her emotional judgment?
Last edited by markos; 12/02/11 10:14 AM.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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***EDIT***
Last edited by Ariel; 12/02/11 10:26 AM. Reason: Removing quoted post.
BW
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***EDIT***
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***EDIT***
Last edited by Ariel; 12/02/11 10:27 AM. Reason: Disruption
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This is a request for posters to stop disrupting this thread. Please familiarize yourselves with Dr Harley's concepts and stick to posting MB advice.
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Schlag,
How is it going as far as talking to Dr. Harley again? And are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show?
I haven't paid to join the radio show to get the downloads yet so no I haven't listened. It has been an awful few weeks for Amy, and I have been focused on dealing with that and keeping life as sane as I can for the kids. It has also been a very brutal week as far as examining myself and the things that I did in our marriage, both acute and chronically over the 12 years. And the realization that even my assumption that I was a great Dad wasn't true. I think when I realized I didn't even have THAT, and Amy was considering taking my kids from me, I hit the absolute bottom personally. But I started SAA last night and I'm going to dive into the radio shows as time permits.
It sounds like you disappeared for awhile, then came back when you needed us to try to smooth over Amy's emotional reactions on this issue.
I disappeared because of the long Thanksgiving weekend. I wasn't online at all.
We're not going to do that for you. Your redemption involves you changing the way you live so that you don't provoke these negative emotional reactions in the future.
That's what I am figuring out how to do right now. It's hard. I had a bad day yesterday and it wasn't good. I need to do way better if I want to even stay in our home, let alone help Amy heal and build credibility and trust with her.
It is not Amy who needs to change (i.e., realize that she is making a short-sighted decision and might want to have this object back some day), it is YOU who needs to change. Your victim is lying on the ground bleeding, and if she screams that she needs you to get rid of something because it hurts to much to have it, I suggest you do so ASAP.
You are in no position to negotiate, buddy. No position at all. When you balk at these things, you show Amy that you are not coming to her, hat in hand, promising to do "whatever it takes" to radically transform your life and your marriage.
Yeah, I agree. Schlag, I just really emphathize with Amy strongly here.
The problem is that Amy NEEDS YOU to emphasize with her.
I think you need to understand what you look like to Amy over this issue. When you do, I think you'll smash that cast immediately.
I don't think there's anything unusual about a man being sexually aroused over pregnancy. And to be honest, it's typical for a man to feel sexually responsive towards many women. But if that man wants a happy life and a happy marriage, he had better behave like a man, not an animal, and protect his wife from his own sex drive by practicing complete sexual exclusivity. I mean so complete that if he ever feels attraction to another woman, he RUNS THE OTHER WAY. Because while it's somewhat typical for a man to feel this way, it's extremely offensive to his wife.
The cast is not a memento of your child or of a special time in life. Not at all. It is a nude picture of your wife.
And it's not just a tasteful nude picture of your wife, one that some people might think is completely appropriate within the privacy of marriage.
No - it's as if you became interested in an unusual and degrading sexual practice, forced your wife to engage in it for your pleasure, took a picture to permanently memorialize the event for your pleasure, and now she regrets the event.
To Amy's emotions, the cast is all about arousing you sexually by her pregnancy, at her expense. She no longer wants her pregnancy to arouse you sexually, because now she feels that this sexual arousal makes her just like all the other pregnant women you degraded yourself with. You may not have had actual sex with any other pregnant women, but by looking at pictures and thinking about hiring people, you degraded yourself, sir. And you put Amy into a group with all of those other women, which makes her feel worse than cheap. Every time she sees that object of sexual arousal, that "nude picture," she feels that she means no more to you than those woman. This offends and disgusts her. It wounds her psychologically, and if this object continues to exist against her will, it will probably cause mental and health problems for her for the rest of her life.
So -- are you still going to try to change your wife's mind about this, or do you think maybe it'd be better to just give your victim the care she is crying out for, and quit second-guessing her emotional judgment?
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This is a request for posters to stop disrupting this thread. Please familiarize yourselves with Dr Harley's concepts and stick to posting MB advice.
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[
I haven't paid to join the radio show to get the downloads yet so no I haven't listened. The radio show is FREE. You can listen to the rebroadcast for 24 hours after each show and then you can go and listen to the archived shows for FREE. You only have to pay if you want to download a segment.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Schlag, it sounds like you are getting it. Glad to hear that you are reading SAA. Please do as MelodyLane suggests and get into the MB show archives. In addition, you can listen live every day to each show as it comes out. Don't do it as "time permits." This is the most important priority in your life, right? Block out time for your recovery work FIRST, make everything else second. We're not going to [smooth over Amy's reactions] for you. Your redemption involves you changing the way you live so that you don't provoke these negative emotional reactions in the future. That's what I am figuring out how to do right now. It's hard. Yes it is. It is also achievable. You probably need lots of help. Do not half-[censored] this. Get in touch with Dr. Harley again. What is going on on that front?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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