I have started wondering after todays conversation with w, am I trying to hard ?<BR>My w seemed like she wanted to start laying ground rules for her return when in reality shouldn't it be me!<P>I guess i'm afraid that I become too weak fearing I lose her that I will agree to anything.<P>I've started thinking about maybe playing it a little cooler, not calling her to see how she's doing. I guess that may be the wrong tact as she could read that as not caring, but don't women supposedly love the chase? If I try too hard isn't that a turn off ?

RWD -- I think you should continue to call to see how she's doing. Just keep off topics that make you look weak or needy. Women love the chase, but they want to be chased by someone strong. As I replied in one of your previous posts, my marriage is nearly gone because I did a lot of the things you're doing. Back off a little, but stay in touch. Keep a lot of your questions to yourself for now, the answers will come.<P>Good luck to ya, man. I'm pulling for you....

RWD-<P>I totally agree with Heartpain. Women do like men to be strong and self-confident (even tho you might not feel it). Best to you.<P>-- Kathy

RWD,<P>Funny you should bring this subject up. My first XW was here last night. I had to put a new serpentine belt on her car. She asked how things were going between me and Val. Told her the story up to this point. She says that I tried too hard and should just back off and see what happens.<P>She brought up our past and said it was only when she stopped trying and calling me did I come running back begging. This makes sense in a wierd way.<P>I remember reading something about the zero principle. Where the sums of both S equal zero. If you are trying to get her back at a +10, she will back off at a -10. NOW, if you back off to a -10 her reaction will be a +10. Don't know if this makes sense or not. I believe DB also makes reference to the trying too hard.<P>Val hasn't called in the last 3 days. I pissed her off on Thursday. I know she is thinking about me. She has developed an ulcer because of the stress of the affair and her being asked to leave. Don't know what's going to happen, but I ready to move on with MY life. It would be nice to get back together and fix this. If not I still have my girlish figure and sparkling personality. Oh boy!<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

I started thinking about this today after my w called. For the past few weeks she has been kind of meek. Today she was real ballsy telling me that she wouldn't be kept on a leash if she comes home.<P>This was after our coversation yesterday including her speaking of french kissing and all I could see was her and om doing that and basically I fell apart. I wondered if that gave her courage to start making demands.

Hi RWD -<P>This is only in response to you last post about her changing from "meek" to "ballsy"<P>Before your conversation about kisses..she was allowing herself to think that things would change and could be worked out......<P>After you didn't answer her and instead turned the conversation to you....she has closed up - it's back to square one with the communication.......<P>That's where that ballsy comes in....she got hurt and disappointed!!<P>Gotta go through it again to get her "meek" and open.....<P>You're not putting the pieces of this puzzle together!!!! If you truly understand about the conversation the other night ..... what other reaction would you expect? Why would she still be open to caring when she tried and it didn't get anywhere.....<P>You have to show her that it did get somewhere......come right out and say that you were thinking about the conversation and realized that you did not answer her question....then answer it!!!!!!!! <P>Then apologize for relating the images instead of concentrating on the question at the moment...let her know that you did not say it to hurt her... you've just been trying to achieve an honesty and let it slip out before thinking about what it would do....<P>There's a step forward for ya!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

RWD,<P>Sounds like your W may be trying to Bargain or negotiate with you, and I'll bet it WON'T be in your favor, either! <P>It's funny, because I discussed the topic with my counselor on Friday. I think my H (who is out of the house) tried to "bargain" with me by telling me all his plans with the OW. Also before he left this second time 2 weeks ago, He ANNOUNCED to me his intention to leave in the "near future". I think in a sick way, he wanted me to bargain for him staying and keeping her, too. NO WAY!<P>Any possibility your W is trying to come back with the upper hand here????<P>Roll Me Away

RWD - I don't know. As you know, friend, in many ways our situations are similar. Sometimes, I think all marriages are a power struggle, with the man "winning" sometimes and sometimes the woman. I don't think either person really wins when they let the marriage turn into this kind of battle of wills. But my W is a very forceful woman (like it sounds that yours is). There were times early in our marriage when I wanted to leave because of her bullsh1t. But I couldn't. And so she "won." After our fights, I would fall all over myself apologizing and trying to get things back to our previous lovey-dovey state. I guarentee you, this did not work at all. More recently, after our last couples counseling session where she made noises about wanting to leave, I've been saying to myself, OK, if she really wants to leave I'm not going to try and talk her out of it.<P>You know what? She's been in AZ this past week visiting family (probably rendezvousing with Moby [censored], her OM, too). She didn't call me the first night she got there, did the 2nd, didn't the 3rd. The 4th night one of my old and close male friends called about the time she usually does. And instead of telling him I couldn't talk because W may call (he was usher at wedding & knows her), I just went ahead and talked to him, maybe 2-3 hours. Then W doesn't call on 5th night she's away. Ok, I'm cool, I'm not going to call her. 6th day, I go into work on Sat. (yesterday), guess what? She calls twice, she's worried, leaves long messages, tells me she did try to call on 4th night (when I was talking to friend) got busy signal. 3 times yet! Calls again when I've fallen asleep watching TV. So finally, I call her back this (Sun.) morning and we have a great long conversation. I guess the point of all this is, yeah, don't seem too eager. R & B,<P>--Wex

Thanks for all your replies!<BR>RMA, Thats how I feel today, that she is trying to come back with the upper hand.<P>Sheba,<BR>I don't feel she really asked a question in regards to the kissing, it was more of a counter punch, I said something that hurt(unintentional) and she countered with a better shot. My question is if she is into this communication mode, what couldn't she have answered my question ? Was she having a bad week, feeling guilty, thinking about om? BUt instead she went back in history as you said for a problem. <BR>I guess I'm not following you on why she became ballsy. That was her attitude when affair was going on. Pre affair attitude was different, thats why I think she has been talking to om and that has brought back some of the fire in her belly.<BR>I'm not sure on this though. IT just seemd such a strange turn in her attitude.<P>Wex, <BR>Yes it does seem like we are quite the same. I would never argue with her because one, it is really not my nature(to me there are very few things in life getting upset over)this would drive her crazy. Then when I would argue, she would accuse me of having an inflated ego and not fighting fair. So the next time I would bite my tongue so I wouldn't say something I shouldn't. Then we would be back to sqaure one.(I'm trying to learn how to communicate so I can avoid clamming up.)<BR>I haven't been too needy as I and the kids are pretty self sufficient. It just I get lonely and its still hard at times to understand or accept that she has moved out.<BR>I'm really curious to hear what she has to say at counseling on Tues. I'm not sure what I'll do if she starts making demands. But I am ready to go it alone.<P>She has made a new friend, the mother of our son's friend who she is confiding in. Howvever since the friend comes here, I see her alot and she has been talking to me about what my w is saying.<P>This woman is in a platoinic relationship with her husband, He sleeps downstairs and there is no sex. My w has told her that is what she wants, to come home, move into the guest room and take care of the kids and the house and of course no sex with me. NOthing was said either way about working on marriage.<P>I want more than that. I can hire somebody to come and clean and take care of the kids(also give me sex!). She is the one that is now saying she has this great need for sex, along with the admiration and affection. Is this what she wants to bargain for? Does she want an open marriage? I guess this will all have to be discussed.

Hi RWD -<P>She came back with a counter question because of two things, I think.<P>1) You brought up the subject of kisses and I bet it is the first time you have ever show an interest in that word!!!<BR>It was the time for her confusion to be addressed along with yours......<P>2) It might have struck her that here you are only being concerned about how little you seem to be getting when she endured all those years with none of what she wanted (as far as making out). So in this respect, there may have been a little challenge to her question...but only because she wanted you to see how frustrated she has been....for a hell of a lot longer.....<P>The way she acted when in the affair is a breaking out of her "married" shell..she has discovered that there is a different way to have a relationship...a different way in which her ideas, words, wants, desires can be important and expressed....she felt in control of herself...<P>Now, we all know that a lot of the affair feelings are fantasy...but sometimes the realizations of worth in the betrayers own self...remain after the fantasy is over... I think that this can be a good thing.!! <P>She should feel good about herself, she shoulc feel that life can be different than living it not feeling fulfilled. Now it comes down to a matter of both of you integrating the needed changes to accomodate BOTH partners feeling alive and fulfilled....it's not going to go back to the way it was!!!!<P>And it shouldn't!!!! <P>When you used the word "meek" before - I cringed.....for some reason, some men (and I say this with love, RWD - cuz my H got the same impression for a time) think that when a woman is kind or loving or open during times of troubles, that they are backing off on their stance within the situation...that is most often than not - entirely incorrect.<P>Women will attempt solutions through caring and communication whether she is hopping mad or hurt - most women recognize that nothing gets accomplished with non-listening and/or stubborness!!<P>She let her guard down in order to try the communication and caring route with you.....<P>Unfortunately - that conversation threw her guard back up......<P>Why can't you just answer her question for her?<P>You can play at being MR patient and whatever....but, if you don't address the misconceptions and things that either of you did not like or understand in the marriage......why are you being so patient? Nothing is going to happen to rebuild - decide if you are going to communicate or if you are going to keep strategizing when the answer (at least at this moment) only needs to come out of your own mouth!!!!<P>Just think about it....with an answer to her question....you can help to explain one of her feelings of not being loved by you for all that time. And it does feel like that...I know because I have the same question for my H!!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>