That's true, L2C; it doesn't help to bring it up, and it doesn't help to ask.

When your wife is in love with you again, I can just about promise you you will see it in her eyes, and her actions. The change will be incredible.

But let me tell you something important: I understand you guys are only getting about 12 hours of time giving each other your undivided attention each week. That won't cut it. It is fifteen hours to maintain a romantic relationship, and 20, 25, 30 hours to establish it.

What is the plan for bringing your time together up to the levels that will work, on a regular basis?

Bump..... For future post.

I will be back to post to you L2C.

This puts before you an impossible task - trying to erase a Love Bank balace... that doesn't belong to you.

You are better to focus on building and protecting your balance, and on her protecting her Love Bank from other men through Extraordinary precautions.

So; what are your wife's top 3 emotional needs? What can you do to meet them.

Also, as others have noted, you should be spending (at this time) 20-30 hours a week meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs; Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment.


And then you should watch. You should watch for when her actions start to line up with that of someone who has Romantic Love for their spouse; they want to meet your needs, and they want to spend time with you.

This is a really great point. You just put into words for me why I�ve been feeling so discouraged. Although she is WORKING at meeting my needs and spending time with me, it feels to me like she does not WANT to do those things. I just need to be thankful for the mere fact she is trying and look forward with patience and hope to the day it will be something she wants to do and enjoys doing.

Her top three needs are IC, SF and FC.

Clearly I need to buff up the UA time which will increase IC. Just my having suspended travel and arranging to be home from work by 5 every night have really helped with the IC and family commitment. We�re taking time to go on walks and going out on dates and going grocery / mall shopping together. I realize our average of 12 hours a week is not going to cut it. But it actually has been a huge step up from where we were. I really allowed work to creep into our home life and was basically doing nothing more than throwing my family scraps of time. And even then most of our conversations ended up being DJs and SDs from me. I tend to focus on what can be done better instead of being thankful for what has been done. So by my working on knocking off the DJs and SDs, we are increasing not only the quantity of time together but the quality.

Even talking about SF right now is difficult for her so that one is off the table. Obviously that hurts deeply--you know, the fragile male ego thing and all :^) But I am choosing to avoid that for now because selfish demands have been one of my big LBs. This is a good exercise for me to allow her time and space without pushing this issue. We have enough other areas to work on; that the one will come in time with our MB program and the help of our MB counselor.

FC is improving from the increased time I am at home. I�m also making it a point to praise the children more and find ways to say, �yes� more often. So this helps my wife feel like I am more engaged and helping more with raising our children. I spent the last couple of Sunday afternoons baking with my girls. I�m doing Bible study / discipleship with my son most Sunday mornings. Still lots of room for improvement but we�re talking together more as a couple about where I can help with raising our children to be prepared for adulthood.

That last post of mine is a response to HoldHerHand. I'm not sure what I did wrong but it shows original quotes as being my own. My apologies to all for any confusion.

HHH, I really appreciate your comments and line of questioning.

L2C

L2C, it isn't quite true that you haven't talked to Dr Harley about moving. He mentioned his concern to you about the fact that you still live in OM's town.

I think you are not taking the issue of triggers that your wife experiences seriously enough. You said, higher up in this thread, that OM was in your house and in your bedroom many times while you were travelling for work. I take that to mean that they had sex in your house and your bedroom.

I think that you are underestimating the effect that continuing to live in the environment of her affair is having on your wife (and also on you - but you are asking about bringing her out of withdrawal in this thread). By this I mean the trigger effect of both living in the same house where they conducted their affair, AND continuing to live in the town where he lives.

It's not just about the chances of either of your running into him, which you described as "slim to none" (which isn't good enough). It's about triggers as well.

Dr Harley has expressed his concern about this in relation to recovering your marriage but you have continued to say here that you would prefer not to move. You are going against his advice. Why are you doing that?

The reason I asked earlier on whether you have access to him on the private forum is because I think you should avoid posting here about things that you have already been advised on by Dr H. I think that there is a danger of your getting incomplete advice because posters here do not know your full situation, and Dr H does. He is also the expert.

I am not saying at all that you shouldn't post here on the open forum. You and your wife can gain valuable advice about the practical implementation of the specific advice that Dr H has given you. You can gain much help from the FWWs here, for example, on your wife's feelings of withdrawal from a year-long affair during which she "fell in love". You can learn from BSs about dealing with your own resentment, too.

But you need to avoid posting the same problem here that you have posted to Dr H, and on which you have received advice. You should go to him for clarification on how important the issue of moving house is. I think that is of vital importance, but that's because I would do whatever Dr H says to recover a marriage.

L2C, hope you and your son are having a great Bible study this morning on this third Sunday of Advent.

I just thought of a Marriage Builders article you might like. I don't believe I've ever posted this to anyone before:

How do you know if your spouse is in love with you?

What I'm saying posting that article is that maybe sometimes the way to find out the answer to a question does not require you to ask the question.

SC, Hopefully this doesn�t sound defensive at all because I sure don�t mean it to�just want to make clear my reasoning for my answer that I have not �talked to Dr. Harley about whether he thinks moving would be a good idea in my situation.� Dr. H�s comment that he is concerned about the OM living in the same town was at the tail end of a lengthy e-mail regarding another issue. I certainly take all advice from Dr. H very seriously but we have not �discussed� via e-mail or phone conversation with either Dr. H or our coach. My wife and I are prepared to move to a different home / different state but simply have not vetted this out fully at this time.

O.K. I will consider this further.

SC, I concur. My point of posting on public forum was not get advice on triggers or moving but to hear from folks like foreversunshine and comedytragedy and GloveOil and to find links to others like TesaxTwoStep and mirrormirror, etc. And markos has been a wealth of knowledge regarding broadcasts and articles by Dr. Harley. I am extremely thankful for that and have found much encouragement from those who are going through / have gone through similar circumstances.

And let's not forget HoldHerHand who made what was for me the most salient point about the affair love bank...

Okay, I see that.

I hope you will take this further with him.

Its simply what you will read in the infidelity articles and in SAA, L2C.

Though I understand sometimes differentiated repetition is helpful.
Glad to be of assistance.

It has been about two months since I have read the �How to Survive an Affair� article by Dr. Harley (Chapter 13 from His Needs Her Needs�the story about Alex and Elaine). I went back and looked that over and thought it appropriate to post the following excerpt by Dr. Harley:
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Regardless of how well [BS] meets [WS]'s needs, [WS] will remain in love with [AP] for some time to come. Even if [the marriage partners] reignite the flames of their own love by meeting each other's five basic needs, all their efforts may not completely extinguish the flame of love ignited by [WS]'s affair with [AP]. It may burn low, but it might never go out completely. Just as an alcoholic remains addicted to alcohol the rest of his life and never dares to touch another drink, [WS] will remain vulnerable to [AP] for life and should not ever see [AP] again.
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That is pretty sobering! But the great hope is spelled out by Dr. Harley in his closing paragraph:
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A person who discovers his or her spouse in an affair experiences one of the most severe blows anyone could possibly sustain. It also sends both partners on an emotional roller coaster. But when a couple follow my narrow path to recovery, they often tell me that they have built a better love relationship than they ever would have had if the affair had not jolted them into constructive action. The affair provides the traumatic trigger that finally gets the couple to meet each other's basic needs. Once they start meeting those basic needs, their marriage becomes what it was supposed to have been all along.
----------------------

L2C,
Thank you for posting that! Wow........makes me realize I'm not unique in my addiction. I'm going to forward it to my BH. Did your wife read it?
We have His Needs/Her Needs but haven't gotten to that chapter yet.
CT

I second that CT, thanks L2C for sharing. That first paragraph is entirely true and probably even more true for a WW than a WH IMO. I wonder why that is. Why do we WW's tend to romanticize something that represents so much pain and destruction of lives and happiness of the one's we love and the innocent families of our AP?

Just a question: Did the OM in your sitch still profess his love for your WW after exposure? Is PSMF still clinging to that? In my sitch, the OM did what he should and promised his love and committment back to his wife. That enabled me to eventually realize that no matter how much I felt for him, he was beyond me. Even if he still held feelings for me, it didn't matter cuz the affair was over.

An added thought: After we talked it all through after exposure and he had all the answers he needed and the OMW had all her answers, we do not talk about the affair. We never bring it up at all.

The futility of loving the OM will hopefully hit her like it hit me. I hope you guys are doing ok.

CT, Yes�she read it. And I spoke with her about this on our walk last night. In sub-freezing temperatures, mind you! We�re working hard to get our UA time :-)

Here is the link to the full article on MB: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8001_affair.html

This has really helped me come to grips with the fact that my FWW may never be completely free from favorable thoughts of the OM. I think I finally get that and can accept that. All I can control is how eagerly and deliberately I work to make deposits of my own into her account in hopes that someday she will think of me more favorably than him. I am determined to win back the heart of my bride! I�m a man on a mission!!!

You are so sweet just like my hubby! I've been encouraging your wife to stay in the moment. That helps me.

Thank you for the link!

FSS, I think that was a rhetorical question but I naively venture to offer the following suggestions based on my own situation:

1) Any perceived �goodness� of the affair may soften the guilt my wife feels for having allowed another man to meet her ENs that I neglected. So there is a tendency to continue to romanticize / rationalize that the affair was really something beautiful or special or justified.

2) As Dr. Harley describes, the affair is a traumatic trigger that gets the couple to meet each other�s basic needs. These early months of recovery are painful and difficult because I see where I have failed to meet my wife�s ENs and I want to begin meeting them. But I find myself in a situation where my own love bank was burnt to the ground and where my own ENs have been going mostly unmet. Therefore it is only out of sheer determination that I can try to meet my wife�s ENs. So of course this is happening in fits and starts with old LBs creeping in here and there. This leaves lingering doubts in my wife�s mind whether or not I might ever be able to make up for the years of failing to meet her ENs, let alone whether I might ever become her soul mate comparable to what she felt she�d found in her AP. So I think it is difficult for her to let go of the romantic thoughts of the OM because for the moment they continue to act as a salve against the pain of her daring to hope our marriage might yet become something beautiful.

After exposure, the OM said the affair was the biggest mistake he had ever made in his life. He told my wife he had come to realize he could never leave his family after all. I think there was a time in the affair, however, where he himself believed he really could leave his family. This was an old HS boyfriend who all these years later, like my wife, felt unappreciated by the person he ended up marrying and thought he had finally found fulfillment. So in the end the OM winds up looking almost noble in that he �gave up what he longed for� (my wife) to finally do the right thing and stand by his family and to push my wife to stick with her family. We will never know whether or not there was a time the OM truly believed he might leave his family for my wife or whether he was merely saying so all along simply to have his way with her.

I think we have finally reached that point ourselves.

Thank you, FSS. We are doing well. Ups and downs of the recovery roller coaster, of course, but one day at a time finds those ups and downs dampening out. I believe we are going to make it. We have a long road ahead of us to move from �survive� to �thrive� but we have the support of you all, our MB family, and we have wonderful and gracious friends from our church who have come alongside of us, prayers of all our family and faith that God will work all things together for the good of those who love Him!

L2C,

You, sir, are a quick study. I believe you will progress well.

LTC,

So in the end the OM winds up looking almost noble in that he �gave up what he longed for� (my wife) to finally do the right thing and stand by his family and to push my wife to stick with her family.

I really get that, with my WW even 20+ years after, OM2 is revered as a good guy. I think because OM2 was the one to end the affair, my WW actually sees me as owing OM2 a big favor.

This is why it is so important for any affair to end in an ugly manner to kill all chances of a fantasy burning.

God Bless
Gamma