But in order to withdraw, all contact must end. Withdrawal doesn't START until every reminder, every trigger is removed.

Unfortunately, removing facebook from our lives is not an option. We are in show business, and facebook is a major way that we communicate with fans and colleagues. We could, however, switch to a joint facebook account, and have me manage it. I can also block his facebook account from our internet connection entirely.

I understand that extraordinary precautions are not negotiable. But keep your eye on the GOAL here: total transparency. There are many ways to achieve that, and many elements that can be involved. Do we review the phone bills together every month? Share passwords for all our accounts? Have keyloggers on our computers? Keep a GPS logging her movements at all times? Have her call me every hour to check in? They're all valid options and all could be a part of a solution. But the solution has to be something that makes me comfortable, and that she is aware of.

In the end, at some point I have to just trust that she's being honest. If she really wanted to cheat again, even with all of those measures she could borrow a friend's phone and make contact. She could stop at an internet cafe, create a gmail account, and send him a message in under 5 minutes. She could create a new facebook account and write to him again. I can't be everywhere at once, and I can't spend my entire life watching hidden camera footage of her.

These rules and systems are there to help reinforce my trust, and to make it harder for her to contact him again when she gets the urge. But they are not the transparency itself. What I am demanding is the goal: total transparency. What I am not demanding is a specific way to achieve it. Some measures I feel I HAVE to have, like access to her accounts and phone. Others ARE negotiable, like a GPS tracker that watches her every movement. We already ARE together 99% of the time, so that's not an issue for me (even during the affair she was always where she said she was. when they were meeting, I knew they were meeting. but without a security camera, I could not have known that they were [censored]ing).

Anyway - amazing and empowering to hear of the lengths that people have gone to remove triggers from their lives. We moved apartments, stopped going to any of the same restaurants etc, and don't even venture back into the old part of town. Changed day jobs - he had nothing to do with the old jobs, but they were too much of a reminder of the old life. There's no car to sell, or couch to burn. Deleting the photos will really make it like those months never existed... and I like that.

Hi MelodyLane - Sorry, but what are EPs? I can't find them in the list of abbreviations. Emotional Protections?

For the other parts of your post:

* She IS being transparent and has met every request I've made. But I can't walk in and DEMAND them because of her past. I have to actually discuss them, explain them, and give her some ownership of them in order for them to work.

* I'm definitely hearing from everyone that just seeing a picture is enough to restart withdrawal. So deleting the pictures is clearly a necessary step.

* Facebook is a required part of our professional lives, so the accounts can't disappear, as I mentioned in my last post. There are options there, though. In any case, I have access to her account and she can't see anything from him except his profile picture and name. Blocking would make it more complete.

* OM is not married. Our mutual friends all know, and have all ditched him - including his former best friend, who has been one of my biggest supporters through this. I just got the full story myself in the last week, and I will make sure they all know.

As another note - we even wiped her phone completely, and restored from the last backup, from before she knew him. All of the text messages, his number, any photos... everything is gone. The photos kicking around facebook are the last thing I can think of that we could eliminate without moving from the city... and she did take a month out of the country right afterwards.

EDIT: "But in order to withdraw, all contact must end. Withdrawal doesn't START until every reminder, every trigger is removed."

How can you get EVERY trigger? There are always going to be some left over that you can't control... you see someone on the street wearing the same hat he wore. When they met to talk, they always met at a starbucks. I can't get anywhere without a starbucks! My understanding is that you eliminate all the reminders that you can, avoid the others, and just deal with the remaining ones.

But again, she would be free to look up the OM's picture. What can be blocked can be just as easily unblocked. Maybe another option would be for her not to be on the computer unless you are there.


EPs means that she is completely transparent and you have stated she does not agree to this though. Addionally, there is no point in having a keylogger on her computer if she knows about it. If she knows about it, she would obviously not use that computer to do anything wrong; she would find ANOTHER way. So it makes no sense to have a keylogger if you tell her about it. That negates the whole purpose.


That is the kind of thinking that leads to affairs. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages but a lack of boundaries. It is too much trust that allows affairs to take place.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html


Again, you wouldn't tell her about having a GPS because that would negate the point. If she knows about it, she can find ways around it.

Can you remove her access to facebook? Of course you can! If starbucks triggers her, then you would stay away from starbucks. Just because you cannot remove EVERY trigger does not mean you do not remove those you CAN.

EP's are extraordinary precautions.

But previously you said that "we're still negotiating ways to build transparency." So I feel that your story is changing as we give solutions. We can't very well help you if the story is evolving. This is you wrote previously.



Dr Harley suggests MOVING when the triggers are this great.

To your knowledge, how often has she hurt herself?
Has she ever been placed in a "psychiatric hold" because of hurting herself.? Or, threats to hurt herself?
Please, do not change the story and try to say "it's not that bad".
You went down this road to demonstrate why you must be oh-so-careful ....
So, how high risk is she really?

Ah yeah - I see how that's confusing wording. Sorry! "still negotiating" means still talking about it and looking for other ways to do it... but in the meantime I still have all the access I mentioned. Nothing is changing in the transparency plan, unless we agree on a different plan. She's not comfortable with this one, but I told her that until we can find another way to do this, we're sticking with what's there. I'm happy to talk about alternatives with her, but transparency itself is not optional. Sorry for the confusing wording there, I see how it caused a lot of the replies!

"it makes no sense to have a keylogger if you tell her about it."

I'm not sure that I understand here. She has come to the table and is willing to do "anything it takes". She has not had contact with the OM, and has suffered through that cold turkey. We didn't realize that we had to do so thorough a purge of photos etc, but we can add that on. So what I'm looking for are SHARED ways to set boundaries and reinforce trust.

But what you seem to be suggesting is that I should still be snooping on her without consent. Why? The affair was over a month and a half ago. Snooping at this point would seem to UNDERMINE trust. She knows I have zero trust for her. She knows I have to keep extraordinary tabs on her and watch her "walk the walk" for her to earn that back. How can she possibly rebuild real happy associations with me if she feels like big brother is watching her every move? Sorry if my tone is off, but I honestly don't understand why I should snoop on her AFTER she's admitted to everything and is making good faith efforts to fix things.

Obviously, you've not been studying Dr Harley's plans for recovery.

First off, it is not snooping if she knows. Of course you shouldn't have her "consent;" that defeats the purpose. You just don't tell her about your resources. And obviously, snooping will not be effective if she does know. It is not "untrustworthy" to snoop. It is untrustworthy to have an affair. Snooping is your way of protecting your marriage.

The reason you snoop is to protect your marriage from a repeat affair. Snooping BUILDS trust because watching her when doesn't know you are watching gives you reassurance.

You should not have "good faith", that is how affairs are allowed to happen. Your "faith" should be based on EVIDENCE, not on HOPE. Hope is not a plan and will not protect your marriage.

Snooping does not "undermine" trust, it rebuilds your trust. Can you think of anything that would more effective in rebuilding your trust of her than being able to verify her faithfulness when she thinks you are not watching? There is nothing more effective at rebuilding your trust because you gain enormous protection for your marriage.

Ah, I see.

It would certainly help rebuild trust for ME... but it still seems tremendously undermining for the other side if it ever comes out. I can see it as a temporary measure... but as a life-long thing? Doesn't that contradict Radical Honesty?

Radical honesty is not intended to be used when there has been an affair when it involves snooping. You should snoop as long as you want to protect your marriage. So, if you want to protect your marriage frmo an affair for 6 months, then do it for 6 months. If you want to protect your marriage lifelong, then it should be life long.

There is nothing undermining about that. Why would she care if she knew?

My H has said that I am welcome to do whatever I need to do to make sure our marrige is safe. He has no idea what that entails or how often I confirm our safety. Nor does he care. As a matter of fact, he likes being totally open and honest to me. He has nothing to hide.

We are about three years post-DDay. I don't check things as much as I used to, but there are still times when I'll do a little 'maintenance' checking. He knows. He doesn't care. It doesn't create any mistrust issues for us. Why should it?

themmaybe I don't understand your meaning when you say "protect" your marriage. We all want to protect our marriages for life... that's why we use the policy of radical honesty. That's why we'really here in the first place!

If you only mean protect your marriage in the sense of "there's an immediate threat, so I take extra measures," then this is a temporary thing until the threat of recurrence passes and I feel like I trust her again. That I can understand.

Maritalbliss - thank you for the object example! That made more sense to me than the abstract discussion...

Bottom line, I'm not comfortable keeping secrets from my wife. I don't lie anywhere in my life, and I try to be an open book with everyone. But I could be happy with the arrangement you described. We can both agree to be open books for each other, and that any measure one feels like they need to take to verify that is OK.

But what do you do if your spouse is not being honest? Especially with a spouse who has a history of adultery? Then you can't depend on her to be radically honest. In that case, your snooping would quickly dig out any problems in their early stages. You could PROTECT your marriage from an affair.

You should not TRUST your spouse. What you should do is take steps to prevent a repeat affair. One of the very best ways is snooping. We have had many affairs PREVENTED by snooping because the spouse stopped a flirtation before it took off.

But being an "open book" when it comes to snooping leaves you vulnerable is not wise. If you are an "open book" about having a keylogger on her computer, spyware on her phone or a GPS on her car, then you have done nothing to prevent an affair. She should NEVER KNOW about your tactics, in other words.

If she knows your methods, then she will know HOW to circumvent them. This is why it is important to keep them a secret.

You should more uncomfortable about NOT having these protective measures in place. Are you uncomfortable with her having an affair?

here

Sorry expat. The affair is far from "over". The mental and physical effects are still happening.

When you stop smoking Heroin there are still various debilitating withdrawal effects. Exposure to Heroin is a sure fire way to go back to smoking it. Only way to break a Heroin addiction is extraordinary precautions to avoid relapse.

Affairs are similar to chemical addictions.