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#2577242 12/21/11 11:38 PM
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estrela Offline OP
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Hi. I am coming back after 5 years since the end of my WH affair. In the last couple of months, he start going out more at night, change a bit his behavior. Today he told me he needed to go to DC for a day for work and will be back tomorrow. Weird. I told him the whole story sounded fishy. He dismissed. I called him when he was suppose to be on the train. No train noise. I asked him to call me from the hotel. He said he was too tired and would not do it, he just wanted to sleep. Lies? All lies? I looked around his receipts and found 3 dates in past 3 months with restaurants, a night club, a jazz bar and opera, which he never mentioned. Something is going on, I guess. He denied, but he has a history of lying. I really do not want to go thorugh what I went through 5 years ago again. Divorce? I do not know. I have 2 beautiful boys, 9 and 10. This is really so hard. And not knowing... Please help.


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577254 12/22/11 01:41 AM
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In my opinion, part of your recovery meant no nights out alone. I believe you had a false recovery and felt like everything was ok, but you allowed his independent behavior to take place. You probably did it because you felt secure again, but going out without your spouse at night is a recipe for disaster. I'm sure other experts will give you better advice and I'm sorry you had to come back here for the same reason again. Hang in there.


Me: BH 36
Her: WW 34
Kids: D 14, S 12, S 9
DDay 1-6/2009
DDay 2-9/2011
DDay 3-11/2011
Filed for D 10/2011-Papers Served 11/2011
Divorce final May 24, 2012
My Story



GJM #2577257 12/22/11 02:00 AM
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Hi Estrela

Sorry you are back here with suspicions again. Part of recovery and the MB approach means always verifying that your spouse is worthy of your trust, and the best way to do this is snooping.

You're right, the not knowing is awful. But you already have strong suspicions and very good grounds for these. Step one is finding the truth. Suggestions... GPS and a VAR in his car, keylogger on computer / phone, pull the phone records if possible. Can you access his email account? His phone? On his next night away, drive to his hotel for an unexpected suprise visit (take a friend as a support and witness!)

You have been here before, so I am sure you are familiar with the Plans. Follow Plan A while you investigate.

Hang in there Estrela. You have done this before, you can do it again, whatever the outcome. Affair or no affair, recovering your marriage or divorce. First find the truth.


Me (BW): 35
Married 1999 with no kids, DDay July 2011, OC born September 2012, Divorce final November 2012.

WXH (Gollum) is corrupted by his A, and now forever bound to it.

Plan B has set me free.

"Mourn the man he was. Know the man he is."
Caracal #2577275 12/22/11 07:35 AM
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estrela Offline OP
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Thank you for your posts. I guess there is no way around it.
I am so tired, so tired.
I am trying to install the Spector program I bought 5 years ago and never used. His computer is not letting me. I will try to find a way to do it before he comes home. I tried to call him now (several times) and he is not picking up.
He travels occasionally for work, but this is the first time since the A that he does not send me all the hotel and travel info so I can call his hotel room if I want to... bad feeling.


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577277 12/22/11 08:05 AM
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The purchase from 5 years ago has possibly expired, estrela. It would be worth just buying an installing another one now, just to get it done while you can.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
SugarCane #2577285 12/22/11 09:04 AM
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estrela Offline OP
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Just downloaded the upgrade (eblaster) for Spector and installed it. I was able to deactivate the antispy and all. Feel much better now.
Also, I called the business person he was supposed to be with in DC and he is in his Israeli office, so now it is real. Kind of relief in a way.
I called WH and he said he will be home at 4pm to talk.
I don't even know what I want. A part of me wants to get rid of this relationship and just be by myself, with the kids. Last time I felt hurt, this time just tired, very tired...


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577293 12/22/11 09:42 AM
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Good job, estrela.

Please tell us why his first marriage ended. As far as you know, did he ever have an affair during that marriage? And, how long after it ended did he meet you?

Were you ever married before?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
SugarCane #2577303 12/22/11 10:11 AM
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Estrela:

Did you implement MB philosophies the last time? If you did, this is a very bad sign. If you didn't implement all the extraordinary precautions and meeting each others' needs, it's not inconceivable that your H strayed again.

Dr. Harley offers an extremely narrow path for marriages to become affair-proof and any deviation can lead to lapses.

So, it's conceivable that, if implemented fully, Marriage Builders can save your marriage, even after a second affair. HOwever, if you implemented the plan fully and your H still cheated again, there may be no hope.

Either way, it's up to YOU to decide if you even want to give him a chance. The ball is in your court.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Estrela}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

That's a hug for you in this dark hour.


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=35
SugarCane #2577304 12/22/11 10:14 AM
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estrela Offline OP
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Did I mention he was married before? Well, his first marriage was not a happy one, and it ended when he got involved with someone (not me!) and left his wife + kids.
When I met him, he was already divorced for 2 years. I was not married before. We got married after a year. When I was pregnant of second kid, he started a long term affair. I only found out 3 years later. He was having an affair with the woman who was working for him. Traveling together, the whole thing. It was devastating. We went thorough Plan A. When I was ready for Plan B, he decided NC, sent a NC letter and I believe it was NC for a long time.
Now he is showing some of the same behavior of last time (losing weight, excersing more, buying clothes, and being more distant at home). It might be the same woman.
I do not know my approach for today's conversation. Advice????


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577306 12/22/11 10:17 AM
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How often does he travel?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


estrela #2577307 12/22/11 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by estrela
. He dismissed. I called him when he was suppose to be on the train. No train noise. I asked him to call me from the hotel. He said he was too tired and would not do it, he just wanted to sleep. Lies? All lies? I looked around his receipts and found 3 dates in past 3 months with restaurants, a night club, a jazz bar and opera, which he never mentioned.


Estrela, here is the problem. Your husbands lifestyle is an invitation to an affair. Your marriage has never recovered from the last affair if this is how your husband lives. Recovery means he lives a completely integrated lifestyle and only goes out with you and travels with you. You should be with him.

The first step in recovery from an affair is to affair proof the marriage so your WS cannot lead a secret second life. That has not been done here.

He probably is having another affair, but if you kill this one, he will just have another one because of his lifestyle.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2577315 12/22/11 10:46 AM
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estrela Offline OP
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He goes to Israel to visit his family. He also travels for work once every 6 weeks. But then it was "road shows" and he had the schedule, plane information, hotel information. I could call the room and it kept my mind at ease. This time was just "I need to go to DC for a day", and all bells started ringing. Suspicions were confirmed when he would not give me train/hotel info, and now I called the person he was suppose to see and he is not even in the US.
Recently (2, 3 months) he's been going out at night more, saying he has meetings and coming late. I was asking questions, but not feeling really sure if he was telling the truth.


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
MelodyLane #2577318 12/22/11 10:52 AM
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estrela Offline OP
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He was with little work for a couple of years, so he was home, and our relationship was fine.
Recently he was working as a consultant and needed to travel more. He just accepted a job position starting January that requires even more travel. I guess there is no hope, then. Plus his fmaily is in Israel and he goes there to visit, sometimes by himself.


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577325 12/22/11 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by estrela
He was with little work for a couple of years, so he was home, and our relationship was fine.
Recently he was working as a consultant and needed to travel more. He just accepted a job position starting January that requires even more travel. I guess there is no hope, then. Plus his fmaily is in Israel and he goes there to visit, sometimes by himself.

This is something that will have to stop if you want to recover your marriage. Traveling apart is an invitation to affairs. Your husband leads a secret second life and as long as that remains, you won't have a marriage. He has probably had many affairs over the years.

If I were you, I would plan on going into Plan B real soon here. Are you familiar with the MB program? Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


estrela #2577327 12/22/11 11:09 AM
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Can you hire a PI to follow him?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2577331 12/22/11 11:17 AM
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estrela Offline OP
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Plan B sounds good right now. I am familiar with MB. I did an amazing Plan A last time and it saved the marriage. But then, I was only focused on kids, so I could see how to change things a bit to address his needs.
Now, I do not see anything that I can do, nothing justify the lies and the way he behaves.
The other A was with one woman. It was a long term thing. It might be the same one now. He tends to go back to familiar places.
I guess I could hire someone to follow him when he goes out. I will look into this...
Thanks for the support and advice. So needed!!!!


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577348 12/22/11 12:01 PM
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estrela, I know you did not get good advice when you came here years ago, but recovery from an affair involves affair proofing your marriage. You were not told that back then, unfortunately. I would get the book, Surviving an Affair. In this article, Dr Harley specifically defines what it will take to recover a marriage and as you can see, you did not take these steps the last time, so you are here with a repeat affair:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


estrela #2577374 12/22/11 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by estrela
Did I mention he was married before? Well, his first marriage was not a happy one, and it ended when he got involved with someone (not me!) and left his wife + kids.
When I met him, he was already divorced for 2 years. I was not married before. We got married after a year. When I was pregnant of second kid, he started a long term affair. I only found out 3 years later. He was having an affair with the woman who was working for him. Traveling together, the whole thing. It was devastating. We went thorough Plan A. When I was ready for Plan B, he decided NC, sent a NC letter and I believe it was NC for a long time.
Now he is showing some of the same behavior of last time (losing weight, excersing more, buying clothes, and being more distant at home). It might be the same woman.
I have just spent time reading all your past threads, estrela. Oh dear oh dear. They make sorry reading.

From what I can see, your H had at least two affairs in his previous marriage. You knew that he was involved with another woman when he left his wife, but only after your own D Day did you speak to his ex wife, and find out that she saw it as a full-blown affair. She tried to kill the affair and save her marriage, so she clearly didn't see the marriage as already over, the way he spun it to you. She also told you of her suspicions that it was not the first affair.

Your H began his long-term affair in your marriage after only about two years, when you were pregnant. The affair continued for 3 years before you found out about it. He maintained contact with OW and eventually MOVED OUT OF YOUR HOME to be with her. You let him stay at your house for half the week and live with her for the rest of the time - and by this time you were posting on MB and nobody advised you that this was wrong. You let him move back home full-time while knowing he was still in the affair, and nobody told you THAT was wrong, either. He lived with you for some months still contacting OW, with your knowledge. You seem to have been in some sort of permanent Plan A, just waiting for the affair to end, rather than bringing about a conclusion yourself.

You got a keylogger eventually, but did not want to install it, and another poster on MB advised you not to - because you would read things that would upset you. faint You were happy to take his advice. Good grief.

Eventually your H sent a NC letter and you saw changes in his behaviour that led you to believe that he was indeed NC - and that was the only reassurance you had. Eventually he accepted another travelling job and here you are. And yes indeed, this is the same OW and this affair has now been going for for something like 9 years.

The good old MB forum from the old days did not help you at all.

Your H is a serial cheater and has been in a deeply entrenched affair for nearly a decade. If you want to give your marriage one last chance, you need to find out this woman's ID and expose the affair to her H; there must be a husband. She hasn't been single all these years. Your H needs to stop travelling TODAY, he needs to write a NC letter that you check and send, and he needs to become transparent with his PC and phone. (Even then, do not give him the slightest clue about the keylogger. Keep that on the PC for YEARS, and put one on his phone, too.)

If he won't do what you stipulate, i.e. stop travelling, end the affair today and become transparent, get him out of the home and file for divorce. You can Plan B at the same time if you want to wait out the affair, but after nearly 10 years, if he does not end it today, you might have a very long wait.



BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
MelodyLane #2577375 12/22/11 12:47 PM
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estrela Offline OP
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Thanks, that's what I needed. I think I implemented the right steps first time around but after time, I let it go again.
This time might be different. I do not feel the passion anymore.


BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
estrela #2577377 12/22/11 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by estrela
The other A was with one woman. It was a long term thing. It might be the same one now. He tends to go back to familiar places.
I guess I could hire someone to follow him when he goes out. I will look into this...

estrela, who is this skankho? Is she a married woman? Where does she live?

And you absolutely should hire a PI to tail him. He has probably been cheating your whole marriage because he has been allowed to conduct a secret second life. You need to find out what he is doing.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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