He knows it's a problem--that's why he gets defensive. Just keep having calm discussions and, when he gets all riled up, tell him that you're not going to get into an argument with him and will resume this when he calms himself down.

I remember when my FWW was raising a stink about having no control over her life--that everyone was telling her what to do, etc. My response was that she had plenty of control and choices. She could chose to do one thing, but I wouldn't stay married to her. Or she could chose to do the other, and I would stay married to her. It wasn't a threat or ultimatum, just a condition for me staying married to her. But a decision had to be made right then and there, because I was done with the bull*.

Oh, and verify that NC is in place.

Scientistmom. We have something here called fog response. I think you could use this when your own WH starts to threaten to leave.


WH: You can't tell me who to be friends with. I am leaving.

BS: I want to work on the M and I am sorry that you are making that choice. DC and I will really miss you.



ETA: Then you continue to Plan A. WH hasn't left yet and most likely will not now. Lovingly turn the empty threats around. Do not engage.

SM, I would up the ante here and let him know that your potential forgiveness is very, very conditional and it is entirely contingent upon his committment to extraordinary precautions. The recovery of your marriage DEPENDS on this committment or there will be no recovery and no forgiveness. NOW is the time to lay out your conditions and make it very clear to him that you will accept no less. You have no marriage otherwise, and will live a death of a thousand cuts that will lead to divorce anyway.

REad this: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

And go listen to Dr Harley's show from yesterday. He addresses this whole issue of just compensation and the disaster of unconditional forgiveness in infidelty. [Ijust checked and it is not in the archives yet but I will post it when it comes up]

I would roll out the whole package to him in one shot and say this is what it will take to earn my forgiveness and keep me in this marriage. HEre is my post about how that discussion should take place, use the parts you deem relevant:

You know, I have always been mystified about reverse babble and since I have now recovered a marriage and been through the MB course, it occurred to me how terribly disrespectful and just annoying it really is. I even used to refer to it myself years ago, but I realized a few years ago how counter it is to MB concepts. In fact, I honestly don't think the originator of "reverse babble" even owned a Marriage Builder's book. She sure never seemed to understand the program in the entire time I knew her on the board. I am just thinking out loud here, because I honestly cringe when I see it mentioned for the reasons I gave above.

Oh dear. I have seen it mentioned so many times here that I thought it was an accepted practice. Thanks for pointing that out to me so I can stop suggesting something that is a DJ.

Mel, I want to chime in one this. I used to think the same way as you. But, after further review I came to some conclusions that I initialy hadn't thought about in regards to the "benefits" of reverse babble.

It's been documented here many times that you should never engage an angry WS with they are spewing their vitriol after exposure. Turn the other cheek so to speak.

I now take the reverse babble as a defense mechanism for the BS to not engage in that kind of back and forth and put it back on the WS. They are already confused and fogged out, so what's the harm of a little more confusion initially. Not saying make them think about what they are doing to destroy their family and lives, but make them think..."why isn't he engaging me"? "WHY WON'T HE ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THIS?!?!"

Reverse babble to me shows (at least now) a part of the change that plan A is supposed to be about. It may not be appreciated at first, but I'm sure it would be, at the very least, noticed by the betrayer. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, I agree completely that you should not engage a fogged out, enraged wayward. Trying to reason with a wayward is like trying to reason with a falling down drunk. But one does not have to speak nonsense in order to do that. We have been telling enraged WS's "sorry you are upset" for YEARS and it works just fine without being annoying, insulting or silly.

If a person finds that valuable, though, I say go for it! I personally have never seen its value.

I understand completely, pokerface!! It has been mentioned ad nauseum for years so I certainly don't blame you one bit for bringing it up. I have never said anything until now but I have always questioned the value of RB.

Okay, I see what you are saying, but hear me out here, and I'll keep it as short and concise as possible. Frankly, because I'm an idiot in these matters, I want to learn so this doesn't happen to me again.

How is saying "sorry you're upset" any different than the reverse fog babble that has been documented here?

The wording may be different, but (to me anyway) the result is the same. Diffuse and confuse.

LOL..trust me, I'm not discounting your wisdom here. I'm still learning, and I've learned a LOT! But your thoughts on this, and others as well, seem to have the same end conclusion in mind..diffusing the sitch for the moment. Perhaps a different route, but the same destination.

As a side note, I truly am amazed at your dedication to try and help people save theirs lives and marriages. And I mean this for ALL the MB warriors on this board. Glad I found this place. Through you fine folks, I've learned so much, and am a better man just for being here.

I don't agree that the result is the same, and let me explain. "Sorry you are upset" is an expression of sympathy. Reverse babble is intended to CONFUSE and almost always borders on the insulting. [something to be avoided in Plan A] Insulting and purposely confusing someone is more likely to result in an escalated sitution - one that is already extremely volatile. It is insulting at worst, and patronizing at best - both lovebusters that would seem more likely to lead to an unncessary fight. Why use lovebusters at a time tensions are high?

"Sorry you are upset" is not intended to do either. It is only intended to express sympathy. If someone used "reverse babble" on me it would start a fight. A very unncessary fight.

I admit I once found RB to be funny, but when I really thought it through, I wasn't able to see the value. And I still don't. Believe me, I tried!


Thank you so much! It is a labor of love.

Okay, I see what you are saying, and agree with most of it. However, I have seen some beautifully executed fog responses on threads on this site that have just made me go.....WHOA???? Why couldn't I think of that at the time??

Maybe it can be proper when executed perfectly?

I certainly do understand what you are saying. All this time I thought I was doing the right thing and SHE was the problem. Of course, me thinking I knew what was right got me single and alone at 47 years of age! I was the problem, and that's a very tough pill to swallow.

I lost a wonderful woman and a son that I couldn't love more if he was my own flesh and blood simply because of my ignorance, apathy, and arrogance.

It's been 8 years and I still hurt.

Good Lord, I wish had found this place sooner. My D-day anniversary was 2 days ago. Wish I could love this time of year, but just can't right now.

Sorry for the t/j and I don't have my own thread....just sad right now

TigerWEs, I am sorry you are sad tonight.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{TigerWes}}}}}}}}}}}

Scientistmom, FWIW I had the same problem with my FWH and his female friends. He "just enjoyed the companionship of women" and felt I was the one who had a problem. The PA... well that was just an accident (his words.) I tried every logical way imaginable to convince FWH of why this was wrong. It was like beating my head against a wall.

After Dday #2, I decided that I had enough. I gave him my "rules" as I called them (because I had not found MB yet.) I had them typed out on a sheet of paper for him to read and keep. I told him that if he could not live by these rules then he needed to pack his bags and leave. Note: HE would pack and leave...not me and the kids.

That was 3 years ago and FWH is still here but is now without the female friends. My FWH had to get to the point of losing everything before it made sense to him.

It is consequences that speak to waywards...they cannot be educated.

EXACTAMUNDO!! That is how boundaries are supposed to work.. They can either respect them or they can move on. If he won't respect them, you have lost nothing except a death of a thousand cuts leading right to another affair.

Thank you so much ML. That means a lot to me right now. Your hubby is one lucky guy.

TigerWes. You have found it now! Start your own thread and tell us your story. There are many fine people here who can help you.

Well apparently something I said that night seemed to at least have an impact- he did not have any phone or text time with either of the female friends yesterday ( you all are prob right about the consequences- it was most likely when i said I dont think i can work on this (relationship)anymore if you cant even take into consideration my feelings- I realize not a direct statement but he understood what i meant cause that's when he had threatened to leave.

One thing I have learned about him during this whole "adventure"
is that he seems to take some time to process things- so maybe it just took overnight before it sunk in. Unfortunately he currently reacts in anger ( not necessarily usually his mo- so i keep thinking (hoping) is it the withdraw and it will fade away in time- but it may not be this could have been how he always felt but was just keeping it inside-)

Thanks everyone for your input and guidance

Well i hope that everyone had a good christmas.

My WH seemed to actually make some small progress this long weekend- He was actually initiating or reciprocating some affection this weekend- small things stroking my leg or back but its something. Im trying not to read too much in to it cause maybe he was just feeling particularly guilty so was just trying to pacify me, but maybe it was a step in the right direction. I just wish he could tell me anything positive no matter how small, that it was getting better for him, that some feelings for me are coming back- just something. It so hard to keep going on nothing and im trying to respect his wishes of not talking about the relationship/feelings for a while.

And its almost back to the drawing board- i dont know if i can take this anymore- I was having a hard day this morning and admittedly throwing some LB at my WH and now we are back to "I have no feelings for you and im trying to decide if I want to leave you". He not walking out the door today but says nothing is getting better for his in the feelings department only we are getting along better. And no amount of us spending time together is changing that- he says conversation for him is weird and awkward still. Everytime I think things are getting better, i find out from him nothing has changed-Christ he even said on tues that he thought it was getting better, when i brought that up now its i meant we are getting along better. How long can I keep doing this for? I dont even know if he is going to stay thins time- This is so hard for me and everytime i throw a few LB around cause im having a hard day- cause he cheated- he turns to leaving.

What do i do now?

The problem with your husband is that anytime he gets frustrated he threatens to leave you instead of working to resolve the problem. I don't believe his affair has ever ended. He does not act like someone who is in withdrawal. His continued threats and lack of participation are going to take a serious emotional toll on you and it will come on FAST.


I want you to go to him and let him know you are thinking the same thing. Let him know you have decided that you want him to leave if he cannot meet your conditions. You need to see a much greater effort from him in order to EARN your forgiveness. Let him know you would be willing to give him that opportunity but only under certain conditions. If he can't meet those conditions, then you have decided he does need to leave. Offer to help pack his bags.

Tell him you have no desire whatsoever to stay in a loveless, empty marriage with a man who cheats and then repays you with threats and neglect. You have no desire to stay married to someone who threatens to leave every other day. That behavior is causing you to fall out of love with him and causing undue stress.

In order to fall in love with him again, you will need to see a much better effort. And then hand him this letter:

Dear Joe, I want us to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and won�t stay in a loveless marriage. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness under certain conditions. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep me interested:


- never talk to or see OW again
- tell me the full truth about your affair
- become completely transparent and give me access to your phone and emails;
- Spend 15 hours together per week
- No more nights apart � EVER
- No opposite sex friendships;
- No more going out at night by yourself;
- Commitment to go through the marriage builders program


I cannot continue to live a normal life with you and pretend to be happy. I am so sad and miserable right now.
I will not remain married to you if I cannot respect and admire you.
I will not remain married to you if you continue to place me in unsafe situations.
I will not remain married to you if you are dishonest in the slightest.

This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage. If you cannot do this, I would ask that you move out immediately.

Love,

Wife