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#2577418 12/22/11 02:25 PM
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I dont want to threadjack Raging_Calm so Im starting my own thread. I'm posting it here to save the mods the trouble of moving it.

Why is it that every time a woman comes here and says that the problem in her marriage is that she doesnt want to have sex with her husband and hes upset about it, we automatically follow the same old tired algorithm? First we go through the medical problems, then its a series of questions about whether the husband is meeting her emotional needs because sex cannot happen unless all of the emotional needs are being met, then if everything has been a positive answer, wait I know, its a sexual aversion caused by something the husband has done in the past to make her not want to have sex.


If anyone suggests that it could just be that the woman doesnt like or want to have sex because she just doesnt like or want sex, then theyre wrong? Cmon folks, there ARE women who just dont want to have sex. It could be for a myriad of reasons, physical or emotional, that have nothing at all to do with an aversion. There are GUYS that dont want to have sex, but we dont suggest that they have a sexual aversion, the first thought is that theyre gay or are getting it from somewhere else, then start asking questions about low testosterone. We dont ask if the wife is meeting her husbands emotional needs to discover why the guy doesnt want to have sex. Funny, I wonder what we would say if a guy didnt want to work or provide financial support for a family, Ill bet we wouldnt be questioning whether his emotional needs were being met or whether he had an aversion to work. Sorry, honey, cant go back to work anymore, my boss jumped my ass in front of everybody, and I dont think I could work again. I think I have developed an aversion. No, its only when we are discussing sex, or lack thereof.


Some women, months after their child is born, dont want to have sex with their husband. Theyre either very tired (understandably) and/or sex is not really important to them for the foreseeable future, caring for the child is. If the husband complains hes being a baby or unreasonable. Is it an aversion? Dont think so, just very low on the old priority list. Sleep probably ranks a lot higher, and hubby will eventually tire of asking.


How about women during and sometimes after menopause? Do they have an aversion? No, their hormones are changing. After the hot flashes stop and theyre post-menopausal, many just dont have interest in sex anymore. For a long time that wasnt a problem until the advent of Viagra, women thought the Jurassic period in their marriage was thankfully over cause their guy couldnt do it anymore, but hold on, pop a pill and the old sexual tyrannosaur aint extinct yet. I love the commercials on TV about Cialis and Viagra, would like to do a real life survey about how many women are truly happy these drugs were discovered.


How about women that are overweight, or have breasts that are succumbing to the laws of gravity, or something else about their appearance that they dont like? There are women who dont want to have sex because they have self-esteem issues about their appearance. Is this an aversion? No, they dont have an aversion to sex, they just dont believe theyre still desirable. You can suggest aversion exercises all you want, it wont get past the disrobing stage.


And then we get to women whose husbands just aint cutting the mustard in the sex department. Hubby could be a wham bam thank you maam and roll over to sleep kind of guy, or a premature ejaculator, or someone for whom foreplay is a foreign concept. Is this an aversion or just being tired of crappy sex? I guess you could argue it could be an aversion, to me it would be just why do I want to do something I get nothing out of? I mean guys feel the same way when their wife just lays there with her eyes closed - a lot of times they're afraid to say something because they won't get it at all. Or sometimes they just don't want to have sex with their wives anymore. Is it an aversion? No, just pure-dee frsutration.


Raging_Calm is working hours like mine and then comes home and does domestic chores, Im a guy and I can tell you that 12 hour days can affect even the strongest sex drives. I asked her about her husband staying home but never asked whether he was actually doing a good job of it or not, irregardless she is coming home and doing domestic work and nursing a baby. Maybe shes just exhausted. They have 7 kids, apparently they DO have sex, but maybe its just associated with procreation? Maybe the husband is glad to have kids because he wants to have sex? She is still nursing and many women have no sex drive during nursing, and the kids are in bed with them. To have sex she would have to move the kids, waking them up, starting them crying, etc. She is probably thinking of convenience in taking care of her childs needs, not her husbands, at the moment. Given the amount of kids they have, this cycle has probably been repeating itself, she may not want to have sex because she fears getting pregnant again. I didnt get around to asking her about that because folks were basically telling me to shut up, hence this rant. Is fear of pregnancy an aversion? Dont think so, hubby could just get a vasectomy. Maybe after having seven kids, spending quite a bit of her adult life pregnant and then taking care of infant children, maybe she expects to not HAVE to have sex anymore. Perhaps thats why she was angry to the point of wanting to leave. But I guess well never know because everyone jumps to conclusions and is now giving her sexual aversion exercises to do after like her second day here. A lot of women who are diagnosed with true sexual aversions, or who see their physician because of lack of libido recognize it as a problem, and so are seeking help because they dont want to lose their husband. Raging_Calm was all set to divorce hers until she saw her situation from a different perspective. I dont think her problem is a sexual aversion, I just think the two of them are so far apart on their expectations and they have no negotiation or POJA skills. But I guess Ill never know for sure because I cant ask questions.

No one is really talking about maybe modifying her work hours, although we did talk about UA time, or getting the kids out of their bed, having the husband do more, yada, yada, yada, no we are focusing exclusively on something that we don't even know is definitely the problem.

There, now I feel better. Thank you to all that actually read this.


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
americajin #2577421 12/22/11 02:47 PM
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The problem is that you don't understand the basic problem and apparently cannot be bothered to read Dr Harley's articles and books. It is not up to me or other board members to educate you. That is your job!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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MelodyLane #2577448 12/22/11 04:30 PM
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Ephesians 5:33 "a husband must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You see .. to me .. this is why and the answer (of sorts) to your rants. And because it states FIRST that a husband is to love his wife .. THEN it states a wife is to respect her husband. God commands us HUSBANDS as the spiritual leader of our homes to LOVE first regardless.. then the wife will respect.

Feelings follow actions! Husband love your wife as she needs to be loved and HER feelings will follow!

Of course there is alot more to it .. but thats a good start and where god commands us as husbands to take the lead.

ANd in Ragings case .. we only see what her side is since her hubby is not here.

Does this help? I am not sure .. but thought I would give my opinion here to kinda in a round about way answer your rant. smile

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I agree totally. I don't believe that men were meant to have the ability to have erections for life. There was once a normal lifespan to onen's sex life. Now it seems eternal sex is a hallmark of a "loving" marriage. Not all loving marriages need to have sex. Put down the viagra when that chapter is closed.

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What the heck are you on about? You realize that ED isn't a "rule" of aging, and that an inability to have or maintain an erection is a totally separate thing from having sexual desire? That Viagra was developed because of the frustration men would feel being unable to fulfill that desire? That elderly women still have sexual feelings and desires?

I find your assumption about sex to be short-sighted and offensive, and hope you stay far, far away from elder care.


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Quote:
What the heck are you on about? You realize that ED isn't a "rule" of aging, and that an inability to have or maintain an erection is a totally separate thing from having sexual desire? That Viagra was developed because of the frustration men would feel being unable to fulfill that desire? That elderly women still have sexual feelings and desires?

I find your assumption about sex to be short-sighted and offensive, and hope you stay far, far away from elder care.
clap Well said, HHH.


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AJ, for your rant;

The process in which those situations is handled is a step-by-step process of elimination adhering to MB material. So, if each step and process fails to solve the issue, then it could be a case of asexuality.

Even in that case, one would have to wonder if something like a low dose of testosterone would make a change or not.

A sexless marriage is not advocated here, unless it occurs under PoJA. In that case RH would be absolutely required in the "enthusiasm" of agreement.

I can think of a poster who lurks here that believed they were asexual, and came back for advice when they found out they were not, and had confusion about dealing with sexual desires.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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americajin #2577513 12/22/11 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: americajin
I dont want to threadjack Raging_Calm so Im starting my own thread. I'm posting it here to save the mods the trouble of moving it.

Why is it that every time a woman comes here and says that the problem in her marriage is that she doesnt want to have sex with her husband and hes upset about it, we automatically follow the same old tired algorithm? First we go through the medical problems, then its a series of questions about whether the husband is meeting her emotional needs because sex cannot happen unless all of the emotional needs are being met, then if everything has been a positive answer, wait I know, its a sexual aversion caused by something the husband has done in the past to make her not want to have sex.


If anyone suggests that it could just be that the woman doesnt like or want to have sex because she just doesnt like or want sex, then theyre wrong? Cmon folks, there ARE women who just dont want to have sex. It could be for a myriad of reasons, physical or emotional, that have nothing at all to do with an aversion. There are GUYS that dont want to have sex, but we dont suggest that they have a sexual aversion, the first thought is that theyre gay or are getting it from somewhere else, then start asking questions about low testosterone. We dont ask if the wife is meeting her husbands emotional needs to discover why the guy doesnt want to have sex. Funny, I wonder what we would say if a guy didnt want to work or provide financial support for a family, Ill bet we wouldnt be questioning whether his emotional needs were being met or whether he had an aversion to work. Sorry, honey, cant go back to work anymore, my boss jumped my ass in front of everybody, and I dont think I could work again. I think I have developed an aversion. No, its only when we are discussing sex, or lack thereof.


Some women, months after their child is born, dont want to have sex with their husband. Theyre either very tired (understandably) and/or sex is not really important to them for the foreseeable future, caring for the child is. If the husband complains hes being a baby or unreasonable. Is it an aversion? Dont think so, just very low on the old priority list. Sleep probably ranks a lot higher, and hubby will eventually tire of asking.


How about women during and sometimes after menopause? Do they have an aversion? No, their hormones are changing. After the hot flashes stop and theyre post-menopausal, many just dont have interest in sex anymore. For a long time that wasnt a problem until the advent of Viagra, women thought the Jurassic period in their marriage was thankfully over cause their guy couldnt do it anymore, but hold on, pop a pill and the old sexual tyrannosaur aint extinct yet. I love the commercials on TV about Cialis and Viagra, would like to do a real life survey about how many women are truly happy these drugs were discovered.


How about women that are overweight, or have breasts that are succumbing to the laws of gravity, or something else about their appearance that they dont like? There are women who dont want to have sex because they have self-esteem issues about their appearance. Is this an aversion? No, they dont have an aversion to sex, they just dont believe theyre still desirable. You can suggest aversion exercises all you want, it wont get past the disrobing stage.


And then we get to women whose husbands just aint cutting the mustard in the sex department. Hubby could be a wham bam thank you maam and roll over to sleep kind of guy, or a premature ejaculator, or someone for whom foreplay is a foreign concept. Is this an aversion or just being tired of crappy sex? I guess you could argue it could be an aversion, to me it would be just why do I want to do something I get nothing out of? I mean guys feel the same way when their wife just lays there with her eyes closed - a lot of times they're afraid to say something because they won't get it at all. Or sometimes they just don't want to have sex with their wives anymore. Is it an aversion? No, just pure-dee frsutration.


Raging_Calm is working hours like mine and then comes home and does domestic chores, Im a guy and I can tell you that 12 hour days can affect even the strongest sex drives. I asked her about her husband staying home but never asked whether he was actually doing a good job of it or not, irregardless she is coming home and doing domestic work and nursing a baby. Maybe shes just exhausted. They have 7 kids, apparently they DO have sex, but maybe its just associated with procreation? Maybe the husband is glad to have kids because he wants to have sex? She is still nursing and many women have no sex drive during nursing, and the kids are in bed with them. To have sex she would have to move the kids, waking them up, starting them crying, etc. She is probably thinking of convenience in taking care of her childs needs, not her husbands, at the moment. Given the amount of kids they have, this cycle has probably been repeating itself, she may not want to have sex because she fears getting pregnant again. I didnt get around to asking her about that because folks were basically telling me to shut up, hence this rant. Is fear of pregnancy an aversion? Dont think so, hubby could just get a vasectomy. Maybe after having seven kids, spending quite a bit of her adult life pregnant and then taking care of infant children, maybe she expects to not HAVE to have sex anymore. Perhaps thats why she was angry to the point of wanting to leave. But I guess well never know because everyone jumps to conclusions and is now giving her sexual aversion exercises to do after like her second day here. A lot of women who are diagnosed with true sexual aversions, or who see their physician because of lack of libido recognize it as a problem, and so are seeking help because they dont want to lose their husband. Raging_Calm was all set to divorce hers until she saw her situation from a different perspective. I dont think her problem is a sexual aversion, I just think the two of them are so far apart on their expectations and they have no negotiation or POJA skills. But I guess Ill never know for sure because I cant ask questions.

No one is really talking about maybe modifying her work hours, although we did talk about UA time, or getting the kids out of their bed, having the husband do more, yada, yada, yada, no we are focusing exclusively on something that we don't even know is definitely the problem.

There, now I feel better. Thank you to all that actually read this.



AmericaJin,

I haven't read that particular thread, but I agree with you in principle.


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I don't agree. But, that may be because of what I do for a living, which largely follows the same pattern.

1) identify the problem (this is usually a poster's first post, or a later post).

2) identify possible causes.

3) identify and plan using interventions for those causes.

4) implement interventions addressing possible causes.

5) assess the success of interventions by revisiting the state of the original problem.

Rinse, wash, repeat.


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Amen, HHH. The solution is outlined in Harley's article about Sexual Aversion. If that doesn't work, in addition to the recommended lifestyle change, then we start over. The solution to a sexual aversion is to take steps to overcome it. Which she is doing.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2577529 12/22/11 09:31 PM
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Nursing theory 101.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
americajin #2577553 12/22/11 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: americajin

First we go through the medical problems


I'm puzzled?
Why would any loving spouse of either gender not want to rule out a medical problem their spouse may be having????

Pepperband #2577571 12/23/11 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Why is it that every time a woman comes here and says that the problem in her marriage is that she doesnt want to have sex with her husband and hes upset about it, we automatically follow the same old tired algorithm?

Because it works.


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AJ, I understand where you're coming from. And I could see how you could spin it as the husband is losing out on the wife gaining not having sex because she is not having to have sex now...so she gets what she wants and he doesn't get what he wants.

However, in the thread that you're referring to, the poster is expressing wanting to not feel this way anymore. I would surmise that the frequency that he would like is lacking, and I'm sure that while the sex feels good from the physical aspect, it's not nearly as fulfilling as it could be were she all into the experience. So in this aspect it's still lacking. No one is advocating that he lives in a sexless marriage. However, if he can chill out for just a bit and work the program with her, then this problem should start resolving itself.

To some extent I do understand the frustration of wanting more sex in a marriage. I suppose fortunately my wife likes sex and so even when we were at our worst and on the brink of divorcing, we were still having sex since my wife wanted sex but didnt want to go outside of the marriage. I can say without a doubt that the sex is so much more fulfilling when both spouses are in lovetheres just something different. Theres more of a comfort level so to speak so thateh, Ill just leave it at that.


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MelodyLane #2577604 12/23/11 07:44 AM
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Quote:
The problem is that you don't understand the basic problem and apparently cannot be bothered to read Dr Harley's articles and books. It is not up to me or other board members to educate you. That is your job!


yes, thanks Mel, pretty much what I expected. Any time that I disagree with something, it's because I haven't availed myself of an educational opportunity.


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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Quote:
1) identify the problem (this is usually a poster's first post, or a later post).

2) identify possible causes.


HHH, you're preaching to the choir here. the first step in any problem solving process is to first identify the right problem. We do that in a lot of the threads on these boards, we do not do that on threads about sex on MB101.


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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AJ, I understand where you're coming from. And I could see how you could spin it as the husband is losing out on the wife gaining not having sex because she is not having to have sex now...so she gets what she wants and he doesn't get what he wants.


No, that isn't what I meant, in fact I wrote a post on that thread asking the husband to come here, and I also stipulated that he should basically not even try to have sex with her until she has had the time to try and work through the issue using the MB program. In that thread the both of them are losing rather badly and I'm glad for them that this has come to a head and now they have the catalyst they need for change.

I think we jump to conclusions whenever this particular issue arises on the board, we barely even make a half-hearted atempt to ask questions to get to the root cause. How many times have we had posters come on here and talk about one thing, and then after a few questions we find out the problem is something entirely different? Instead of also jumping to the conclusion that i am not sufficiently knowledgeable about MB concepts to discuss this issue, why can't we look at the difference in how the sexes look at this problem and acknowledge there IS a bias on the MB101 board when it comes to sex? perfectly understandable that the two sexes would look at such a polarizing subject in radically different ways.

My whole point was that we seem to use a one size fits all approach when there is a thread that involves a woman not wanting to have sex with her husband. I'm not the only male poster who has raised the question of why is it that on these particular threads that it is ALWAYS that the husband is not meeting the emotional needs of the wife and then when the wife says that is not the case, then it is a sexual aversion.

There are a lot of guys that either don't know how, or don't really care, to have a conversation with their wives that involves more than monosyllabic answers and lasts longer than two minutes. There are guys that have no clue, or no initiative, how to show affection in a manner that women. Do we ever question that perhaps these men have an aversion to talking with their wives or showing affection? No, it is a lack of effort or failure to understand the importance of those emotional needs to a woman. I mean there's even a training program here for that. Then why is it such a leap of imagination to even consider that perhaps a woman not meeting her husband's emotional need is similarly a lack of understanding of the importance to a man, or similarly perhaps the lack of initiative? Why is it so difficult to think that there ARE women who don't want to have sex because it is not important at all to them and has absolutely nothing to do with lack of effort from the husband? How many times have we seen guys get married to a woman with whom they had sex with prior to marriage, and immediately after marriage the sex stops? I mean how many anecdotal stories are there out there about this, never mind countless jokes? Can you explain this as a sexual aversion?

Can folks see my point, I mean I'm not trying to be obtuse here, and I'm not trying to be a pot stirrer, but I feel that divergent opinions are given short shrift. You know if there's one thing that I don't like about this site at times, is that I feel that some view it like a religion, and if you question something you are committing something akin to heresy or sacrilege. But this stifles learning, it stifles understanding, no philosophy or religion is static, individual and group progress is made through questioning and discussing. Don't tell me I'm wrong in a dismissive kind of way, tell me why I am wrong, or perhaps wrong is a bad word, tell me why I am not understanding the guidance put forth in the materials in the manner they were intended. I don't mind discussing issues, as you can see, and yes, I will accede when someone proves their point. I am always learning.

And yes, I am fully cognizant that this is the Marriage Builders site, and that we are here for the express purpose of promoting the concepts that Dr Harley developed, and that posters are required to stay within the framework or those concepts, and that posting here is a privilege and not a right. If I violate those terms then the mods will let me know.


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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I think some people don't have sex simply because they don't like their spouse. I can't imagine anyone not liking sex. They must be doing it wrong. smile


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Originally Posted By: americajin
Quote:
The problem is that you don't understand the basic problem and apparently cannot be bothered to read Dr Harley's articles and books. It is not up to me or other board members to educate you. That is your job!


yes, thanks Mel, pretty much what I expected. Any time that I disagree with something, it's because I haven't availed myself of an educational opportunity.


Do you own a single Marriage Builders book? Ever listened to a single radio show? Ever recovered a marriage? Anything?

If you will take note, the people who are familiar with the program and are educated in saving a marriage have long identified the problem and are already well onto a plan. And you are sitting back at the starting line still scratching your head. And screaming at us to slow down. That is because you haven't bothered to read anything here. I can tell you don't read the MB books, listen to the radio show, and have never had any MB counseling. You have never recovered a marriage. Yet you still feel qualified to advise others. Why? crazy Please note that the people who HAVE, already ID'd the problem.

The poster agrees with our assessment and is now onto day 2 of her PLAN to resolve the problem. And where are you? Still sitting back at the starting line scratching your head. Rather you are posting something to her about "improving communication." crazy Improving communication won't save her marriage. Our plan is to overhaul her entire marriage. Learning how to "communicate" won't save her marriage. But....you don't know that.

I don't come here to educate posters who have been here for 3 years. That is your job, not mine. I only insist you stay out of my way.


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Originally Posted By: NeedChange1
I agree totally. I don't believe that men were meant to have the ability to have erections for life. There was once a normal lifespan to onen's sex life. Now it seems eternal sex is a hallmark of a "loving" marriage. Not all loving marriages need to have sex. Put down the viagra when that chapter is closed.


Bwaaa haaaa haaaaa!

Umm, my dad is 80 and Mom is 75. They still have sex and he doesn't need Viagra. They don't give out details or anything, but Mom is still blushing and giggling like a teenager. I think it's adorable.


Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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