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Originally Posted by andy123
That way WW will be far less likely to change her mind on any decisions that she makes too.

She always has the option of changing her mind with any agreement. So do you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Andy - this is one of the big reasons POJA needs to be taught to BOTH people by a third party.

Had your wife known from Jennifer Chalmers or Steve Harley, or from Dr. Harley on the radio show or in the class, exactly the nature of POJA, she would have been able to feel like she had a choice but that her choice didn't trump your choice.

The way POJA has been used has not been ENTHUSIASTIC. Instead, it's been twisted into an idea of LOSE LOSE.

POJA is the ultimate WIN-WIN when done properly. You are moved to ask an entirely different set of questions. Instead of compromise - which is you win at her expense, or she win at your expense, you find common ground to make it possible for you to both win.

I see the enmeshment with your family as a threat to your marriage. If you cannot stand up to your parents and say, "wife and I are doing something different this year." and let that stand no matter what manipulations your parents pull, then your wife doesn't feel protected and honored by you. Instead, you threw her under the bus with your mother driving the bus right over her. It was not respectful. It was blaming her for you not having the big brass ones to stand up to your family and protect her.

POJA might have looked like this - wife - I see that you are set against going to see my family. I'm not enthusiastic about that. What do you propose we do instead that will make Christmas Day more appealing for both of us? And when would you then be enthusiastic about visiting my family as an alternative?" And you negotiate until you come to an agreement that you are both enthusiastic about. Then when your mom calls it's "We have decided to do something else. We will come visit on _____________ day - sorry to miss you today." and take no more disrespect toward your wife from your family.

That's what POJA looks like rather than as a weapon to be used on a non-compliant/non-agreeing wife!


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Melody, I agree completely, with hindsight it's easy to see now, I should have avoided any pressure at all.

I'm clearly not getting POJA right and I find it difficult to imagine how we can get it working without Ww willingly wanting to sign up to some sort of councilling whatever it is. But I guess the online programme would be a great start as I really don't think I can afford to get anything else wrong. I hope 2012 will be a much better year. Happy New Year everyone. Thanks again for all of the feedback, it means a hell of a lot that I have someone to talk to here no matter what.


(ME) BS - 32
(HER) WW - 32
Married 05/17/08
Together 13Yrs
no kids
D-Day - 03/03/10 (PA+EA)
FULL exposure 4/29/10
NC around OCT 2010
Recovery failing....
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Originally Posted by andy123
Thanks for the feedback guys. Melody, I agree completely, with hindsight it's easy to see now, I should have avoided any pressure at all.

I'm clearly not getting POJA right and I find it difficult to imagine how we can get it working without Ww willingly wanting to sign up to some sort of councilling whatever it is. But I guess the online programme would be a great start as I really don't think I can afford to get anything else wrong. I hope 2012 will be a much better year. Happy New Year everyone. Thanks again for all of the feedback, it means a hell of a lot that I have someone to talk to here no matter what.

Andy, learning the POJA was very hard for my H and I. We had to get help from Dr Harley in the MB program to get it. I would strongly suggest you do sign up for the online program. It is worth every penny and will make a huge difference in your marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I agree the POJA was mismanaged, but this concerned me also.

Originally Posted by andy123
If I told any friends or family the truth of the situation they would tell me to get rid of her.


This sounds like exposure was never done. Why not?

This could very well explain her foggy attittude, she never saw the A for what it was in the light of day, it is still a secret and she hasnt done anything wrong and has no amends to make, in her eyes.

She also wants to keep family at a distance in case they ever do find out the truth. The 'guilty secret' is still making her nuts. She is still justifying it too, I would imagine - bad place in the marriage, stress, blah blah.

Plus, getting on board with an MB plan for recovery is supposed to be a non negotiable condition of yours. People are advised to Plan B until this condition is met by the WS. Have you never insisted on this?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by andy123
I think it comes down to a problem with implementing POJA. Ww refuses any kind of councilling or even reading about fixing relationships. Instead I have explained to her the principles of POJA so that we can help with recovering a good relationship. She says she's fine with that but in reality, there is no leeway, no negotiation. �

P O J A

The "BUYER's" agreement !!



POJA requires this question be asked

"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"

Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.

POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it

OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."

and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal?




Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.



VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.




POJA

What about addiction?



And,

Guideline 4

Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~

"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "

"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."

"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit."
_________________________

POJA ... "It's not working"



Taken from the concepts part of MB site .....

Quote
Quote Dr Harley:

The Policy of Radical Honesty

"Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:

1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.

2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.

3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.

4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list?

...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!!



Which brings me to a question ....

emotional honesty ... I don't think a couple can be successful in POJA negotiations without emotional honesty.

How can one POJA with an emotionally dishonest partner?

.... lest we forget ... a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ...

REMEMBER THE QUESTION THAT OPENS POJA

How would you feel about this .....


From this site regarding emotional honesty

Quote
Quote Dr Harley:

"And finally, in order to make the best decisions, you must be radically honest with each other about your emotional reactions to the changes in your lives. The best decisions take the emotional reactions of both of you into account simultaneously, but without an honest expression of those reactions, you will be missing the target.

While some couples may fail to make a successful adjustment after feelings are honestly explained, failure is almost guaranteed when the need for adjustment is never communicated. Always take each other's complains seriously. As I mentioned earlier, your emotional reactions are a gauge of whether you are making a good adjustment to each other. If you both feel good, you need no adjustment. If one or both of you feel bad, a change is indicated. "
_________________________

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