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Brief history
H had affair 3 years ago. Worked on it on the SAA forum. Read the books, done the questionnaires, learned not to LB and about meeting his ENs. H struggles to meet my ENs. Made adjustments to my ENs and lowered the bar by miles but still H struggled.
Current Issue
Just before Christmas H said he wasn't happy, he's not good for me and wanted to leave. We had a long talk he changed his mind and stayed.
Two days ago when I noticed he was really withdrawn asked him what was going on. He told me he waited till after Christmas for the sake of the kids but he still wants to separate.
I have been plan A ing him but this has required me to make enormous sacrifices to my ENs and just feel so rejected and uncared for it hurts. I have lost 5kg in 1 week and have become really depressed as a result of all this insecurity he is throwing at me.
He decided to stay after I agreed to certain things like him having the am to himself with no contact from me then the afternoon we spend together and after the school run we have family time.
When I ask him what all this is about he tells me he is still in love with me but is overwhelmed by not being able to let out his independent/selfish streak, he wants to be selfish and do things he can't do when he is part of a family (like climb a mountain and cycle to Paris).
He is an only child and is parents have indulged him, spot urged a blind eye to any faults and encouraged his behaviour of blaming eberyone else for mistakes he makes so they are of no support to me.
This man has hurt me so so much I just don't know where to go from here. I am drained but I want an intact family more than anything.
He agreed to read HNHN with me during our alone time so that's one thing but he is also adamant that he is not cut out to be a family man (too late when you have created 4 little souls that depend on us). Can he change and want a family?
I have considered plan B. but I am 100% confident this will not make him want the family, he cuts thigs off emotionally with no feelings. He just does not feel anything ( his words not mine).
Lastly I did consider that he might be having an A again but I have snooped and snooped and there is nothing.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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It's not like you can MAKE him stay or MAKE him go.
Why not engage in some of those activities with him? If he wants to climb a mountain, go climb a mountain with him.
If nothing else, that would help determine if he really wants to be alone, or if he's just bored with the way his life is.
Is RC a big EN of his?
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I would LOVE to do these activities. No problem at all but it's almost like he does not want me there. He wants to have an identity that's separate from being a dad and a husband.
RC is pretty low on is EN score so not sure why that has suddenly become top priority.
And I agree I can't make stay or go but I can make it easier for him to go if that's the right thing to do.
What can I do?
If he simply said he is no longer in love with me or does not want me then it would be easier to digest. But it does not appear to be about me.
He seems depressed but won't go to Dr. Suggested MC and again he isnt interested in that.
He's still a good dad and helps around the house but there is n underlying misery within him that I just don't understand. everyone envies him and the family he has why can't he draw happiness pride and identity from that?
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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Perhaps do some snooping to see if there is a reason he no longer wants to be at home. I hate to say it, but perhaps there is another affair going on.
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Since his first PA I have had access to absolutely everything ( email, work phone, I pad, fb etc) we have shared and very entertwined finances so I can see if anything is not right.
I can confidently say I am 99% sure there is no A.
If it was an A I would know what to do been here 3 years reading and learning so I'm really aware of wayward behaviour, this is similar in many ways but he's having an A with himself rather than with a third party.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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I can confidently say I am 99% sure there is no A. It's that 1% that worries me. There are a lot of red flags in your post. Can you hire a PI to check on him to see where he goes or what he does when he knows you're not around?
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I believe I understand what you are saying with respect to the affair with oneself.
I totally believe one doesn't have to have a real-life affair partner to have the wayward mindset. The affair can be with a fantasy person or scenario that is nothing more concrete than "not you" or "not the life I live now."
I'd still check that other 1%, just to be sure.
This may be worthy of an e-mail to Dr H, getting on the radio show with your description of the situation to see what questions he asks and what he makes of your circumstance.
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The problem is that he has never committed to a plan of recovery since his affair. He has fallen out of love and that has never been changed. This is why it is so important to use this program to recover the marriage. Otherwise, it is just a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage.
I also don't necessarily think there is an affair. He is just very independent and is not emotionally invested in his marriage. He will likely have another affair, though, because he leads an independent lifestyle. The second he finds someone who will join him in recreational companionship he will be a goner.
The solution is to use the program and fall back in love again. Don't create separate leisure lifestyles, but create an integrated, romantic marriage using the program.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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marital - the 1% will never go away it's what remains from the first PA. I check and I snoop regularly I have key loggers VAR in his work car and check the finances ( in case he buys second phone etc). I didn't want to divulge the extent of snooping because he is aware of MB and is a sparodic user of the forum. But trust me when I say he's being monitored and he is not having any contact with anyone.
Enlightened - you are spot on with the way I see it regarding him having an affair with himself, he lives in fantasy land ( just like a WH), he does not realise how good his life is. We are finally financially out of debt and in the clear. I am starting a new business in a couple of weeks. The kids are out of nappies ( finally after 10 years of nappy changing the last baby is potty trained) so what I am trying to say that all is good and getting better. I even had a gastric band operation to loose weight and it's working well so I just don't get the total rejection.
ps he just came up the stairs ( I am hiding in the bedroom replying to MB posts) and is throwing accusations implying im having an A as he can hear I'm typing!
He has been snooping on me! I have nothing to hide at all just don't understand if he wanted to leave 48 hours ago why care about what I'm up to? Strange man
I will try to get some time away to compose an email to the Harley's radio show, see if I can get any insight or action plan I can follow to sort this behaviour out.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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Brief history
H had affair 3 years ago. Worked on it on the SAA forum. Read the books, done the questionnaires, learned not to LB and about meeting his ENs. H struggles to meet my ENs. Made adjustments to my ENs and lowered the bar by miles but still H struggled. After an affair, the bar has to be raised, not lowered. The most important element of rebuilding a marriage is the undivided attention time. It takes 20+ hours of UA time per week to create romantic love and 15 hours to maintain. The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.
I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.
The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.
This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.
Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML I love the mb program, understand it, respect it, and believe in it wholeheartedly but one person can't make it work on their own.
He agreed to do alot of the MB principals like POJA and boundaries. But there are other things he just does not seam to get or have an interest in like meeting EN's or Openess and honesty. His lying has improved a great deal but it's still happening always under the pretence he is protecting me from the truth. I in turn have controlled how I react to him when he is honest about a bad thing and this has improved his honesty.
He agreed to read HNHN with me so that's a positive for now. He is also going away for a work thing in 2 weeks (stayng for 5 days) and this has raised my anxiety alot so I know and understand why the MB advises against being apart overnight I get it. He does not.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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. I even had a gastric band operation to loose weight and it's working well so I just don't get the total rejection. Were you overweight? Have you lost the weight?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML I love the mb program, understand it, respect it, and believe in it wholeheartedly but one person can't make it work on their own. But it does take just one person to go into Plan B when the WS refuses to go through the program and that is what Dr Harley recommends. You do know the program doesn't work if you skip the UA part, right? You won't ever fall in love again by reading the book. You have to do the ENTIRE program, most especially the UA time.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML- I am overweight, I have poly cystic ovarian syndrome and being diagnosed with an under active thyroid to boot so weight gain has been an ongoing battle but regardless of the reason I'm US seize 16 (UK 14) so not drastically overweight but not within my healthy weight margins ( my pic is on the mb photo bucket site).
I am loosing weight for me for my confidence and health but there is a small hope this will also effect H in the sense that he likes me more. His OW was twice my seize so not sure if weight matters to him that much.
As far as UA time all I can say is you are right, very right. H wants to do UA time now and it's always been me that failed at it not him. This is because I just didn't know what to do during that time and neither did he but he does not make decisions so it was left to me to come up with something o do and I was just drawing blanks. Now we will sit down and make a list of activities we both like and pick from them for UA time taking the hard work out of the process.
Plan B- I am literally petrified of it, I read and respect indie and Scott's threads but they totally brake my heart at the same time. I am not as strong as them I really am not. I have han depression on and off since I was 17 and unfortunately a few suicide bids to boot ( some recentish) and I don't want to go back to that dark place again and plan b in the short term would put me there lthough in the long run things will be better ( alone or married). I am not sure I can survive the beginning.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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As far as UA time all I can say is you are right, very right. H wants to do UA time now and it's always been me that failed at it not him. This is because I just didn't know what to do during that time and neither did he but he does not make decisions so it was left to me to come up with something o do and I was just drawing blanks. Now we will sit down and make a list of activities we both like and pick from them for UA time taking the hard work out of the process.
Plan B- I am literally petrified of it, I read and respect indie and Scott's threads but they totally brake my heart at the same time. I am not as strong as them I really am not. I have han depression on and off since I was 17 and unfortunately a few suicide bids to boot ( some recentish) and I don't want to go back to that dark place again and plan b in the short term would put me there lthough in the long run things will be better ( alone or married). I am not sure I can survive the beginning. NB28, but you are in a dark place NOW. Don't you see that you are more likely to commit suicide if you remain in a bad marriage where you are neglected and it is only a matter of time before your H has another affair? Staying in such a situation doesn't make you stronger it makes you weaker. Strength is a choice. WE all have choices. You have the same ability to make a choice as Scotland and indigirl. Do you see how peaceful and at ease they are in their lives? They are not having suicidal ideation, NB28. you are.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Right again
With him here I have strength, he is my best friend, knows me better than anyone and has seen me through all the storms but on my on I am lost. I don't know who I am or what to do.
I am not suicidal at the moment but I am aware of my triggers and i am hell bent on not going to the dark side. I have not spoken to him about this because I don't want his reason for staying to be affected by this. I don't want it to be a blackmail thing.
I feel suicidal when my ability to cope is less than the problem I'm facing. I get to a limit where I can't cope and want out. What I'm saying right now I can't cope with plan B. I am not on medication nor have a dr to deal with depression so my resources are limited in that sense as well.
I'm not trying to be difficult ML I just want to try EVERYTHING before taking the risk of plan B.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
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Right again
With him here I have strength, he is my best friend, knows me better than anyone and has seen me through all the storms but on my on I am lost. I don't know who I am or what to do. This is not strength------------------------> "I have han depression on and off since I was 17 and unfortunately a few suicide bids to boot ( some recentish) and I don't want to go back to that dark place again" You don't have strength by staying with him, you have weakness. You HAVE tried everything and your husband is no more committed to recovery today than 2 years ago. There is nothing more to try. You are in what Harley calls "Plan C' for compromise which is the most likely to lead to divorce. Your current path is the greater risk.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I will have to take some serious time to think about that because there is truth in what you said and there is a part of me that still has hope to make it without going to plan B.
That is honestly the best I can do right now. Think it over.
ML i can't argue with you I have been reading and reading threads on here long enough o know. I sit there judging some BS s and their inability to just do what i see as a must (like expose, plan b etc) but then when it's my turn I'm frozen by fear, that has to change either he agrees to a plan that is healthy for both of us or I'll have to go plan b I can't see any other way and no one is suggesting anything else. If its that unanimous then I can't argue with it.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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Kind of progress.
Got a little bit braver after ML post. Sat down with H and told him honestly how I feel, how anxious I am about the trip and how scared I was to objecting to anything in case it makes him leave.
Agreed that he will cancel work trip and that he understands why, this will effect his upcoming promotion but he does not seam to mind that ( as I said before I think he is depressed if he lost interest in work as well as the marriage).
I feel relieved but rotten at the same time, I can't believe I am risking his career but at the same time it's a must and it's the healthiest option for all of us.
Now he is showing understanding, what else do I ask of him?
UA time - solved
POJA- ongoing practicing and implementing
H/O getting there
ENs - reading book
Boundaries- intact for the past 12 months
Anything else I need to think about?
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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Posts: 5,736
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Enlightened - you are spot on with the way I see it regarding him having an affair with himself, he lives in fantasy land ( just like a WH), he does not realise how good his life is. Perhaps. However, perhaps YOU don't realize how miserable his life is from his perspective. Your DJ here may be blinding you to the idea that while you think life is good, he has a totally different view of how life is. Take a look at what you said in your opening post: Just before Christmas H said he wasn't happy, he's not good for me and wanted to leave. We had a long talk he changed his mind and stayed. Doesn't sound like he shares your assessment. Talking doesn't really fix anything. It's going to take action. Since you are here, you are the one who will get suggestions on actions YOU can take. Now we can all talk about how wayward or not invested or whatever folks may surmise about your H. But the bottom line is if there is going to be any hope, you must take action. I believe folks are suggesting action you can take. It's not fair, it's not easy. But the bottom line is you will have to carry the bulk of the load for a while in an effort to get him on board. We are finally financially out of debt and in the clear. I am starting a new business in a couple of weeks. The kids are out of nappies ( finally after 10 years of nappy changing the last baby is potty trained) so what I am trying to say that all is good and getting better. I even had a gastric band operation to loose weight and it's working well so I just don't get the total rejection. I don't see any plans for UA time, or being his RC. I see focus on kids and you starting a business. Does your H believe he is your top focus? Not do you believe it, does your H believe it? ps he just came up the stairs ( I am hiding in the bedroom replying to MB posts) and is throwing accusations implying im having an A as he can hear I'm typing!
He has been snooping on me! I have nothing to hide at all just don't understand if he wanted to leave 48 hours ago why care about what I'm up to? Strange man How does this judgment help build your marriage? I will try to get some time away to compose an email to the Harley's radio show, see if I can get any insight or action plan I can follow to sort this behaviour out.
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