Susie, on 12-29 you had stated that she still texts and emails him and he "briefly replies. Is she still contacting him? And you also stated that he refused to end contact. Has that changed?

Just watch out here, ok?

He's probably smarter than you think and, given your emotional involvement, you're probably the least-objective person in this mess. That's not an insult, by the way, just a friendly "watch yourself" and "trust but verify."

I'll bet you'd be surprised at just how smart he probably is when it comes to cheating on you.

Too, don't underestimate the OW in this. It'll take a lot to dislodge her, and she may not go away quite so easily.

"Marriage rebuilding" comes AFTER the no contact and exposure has been achieved. So for now, the MOST IMPORTANT steps are ending the affair and exposing it. The FIRST STEPS are ending contact and exposing the affair. THEN you can work on recovery. But you have to do first things FIRST. Doing these things FIRST will prepare your H for marriage recovery. Its like an alcoholic, you FIRST remove the booze and get him out of the bar before you can work on the steps.



What does it mean exactly to "move toward?" Is that an actual ACT?

Put the recovery ASIDE for now until the affair has been successfully ended and exposed. You must do this FIRST. Your efforts at recovery are a distraction from taking the necessary steps to save your marriage. You have to FIRST end the affair and expose it. I would keep this on the front burner and not focus on anything else until this is done. Don't let up on this critical step, because this has to be done before you can go onto the next step.


Your children should be told NOW, regardless. Not telling them is harmful to your children, you and your husband. Giving them false explanations for the source of tension in their home teaches them dishonesty. It does not help your husband to whitewash his bad behavior. Your husband should be put in the position of having to explain to his children that he put their family at risk. When children are lied to about the source of tension in their home, it causes confusion and they often conclude they are the source of the problem. There is absolutely no reason you can't tell the kids, other than to cover up for your husband, AND I CANNOT THINK OF A WORST POSSIBLE REASON!

Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, on telling the children:

here



here

here

The purpose of exposure is to kill the affair. Yes, he is fogged and entitled BECAUSE you have kept his affair secret. You have enabled him and kept him a freeloader. So yes, exposure will help in a great way. Just like it killed his last affair, it will kill this one. Affairs thrive on secrecy, after all, so exposing it is like bringing it a crowd of onlookers into the crack house. It is your most most potent weapon against the affair and the fog. It clears the fog like nothing else. So I would rethink your views on exposure because they are very misguided.

Keep in mind that Dr Harley calls exposure "the single most important first step toward recovery." He has saved thousands of marriages. The folks here who are in recovered marriages attribute exposure to their recovery.

You can't afford to skip that step, Susie. You really can't.

Trying to rebuild a new marriage while the affair is ongoing is like trying to install a new floor while the house is on fire.

Yes, I hear what you're saying.

Exposure did *not* lift the fog when H had an EA 10 years ago. It stopped the A, yes, but he remained in the fog about it all. I only know this now in retrospect.

Are you saying that exposure is the only way to lift the fog and also that exposure definitely will lift the fog? Because my experience has been otherwise.

Tonight I told H that pastor would support him leaving the house if he wouldn't stop the A and he lost it more than I've seen him do before. He was really mad when I told him he was foggy about it and put all of the blame back on me about not being open about what I'd talked to the pastor about. He lost his cool and although he accused me of crowding him (because I followed him around when he tried to leave the room) I stuck to my guns and refused to engage with this (not being open) because it is to do with the A, which I said he was foggy about. I said I loved him and would stick to my guns wanting to make the marriage work and believing we could but that I would not engage with the A or things to do with it.

I do not believe there has been any contact between H and OW since mid-December (or possibly before even). His fogginess is such that he has not been able to bring himself to confirm it is all over. He is moving towards it - I know from the way he is talking about the future and about the NC letter, ie everything is concrete plans for us and the children and the NC letter has gone from something he couldn't engage with to something that he needs to write that will be clear that it comes from him as opposed to something clearly written by someone else that he has copied. I have given him one of the draft letters from the MB site to work from.

Susie, this is a HUGE mistake that I see BS's make so often here. "My WS isn't a liar, sneaky, etc."

Please lose that attitude fast. If he is telling you, "I don't want to tell her it's over because of XXX," sweetie, he is still in contact, I can assure you.

You cannot convince me otherwise unless you have a VAR in his car, office and are following him via GPS. Is that the case?

Exposure is the most effective part of kiling the A - but it takes more than just that. It is the essential step, stage one but you cannot stop there. Nor can you skip it and the longer it stays quiet the worse it gets.

Did you tell the children last time? If you did not tell everyone you did not do exposure.

Tell your children to help kill the A, to equip them with the truth about what is happening to their family so they do not blame themselves. They also tend to see strange things and do not tell the BS in case they upset her. Do not let that happen. Bring it out. The truth sets everyone free.

No one is saying bad mouth him or use name calling. Just tell them the simple truth and tell them they can ask you anything about it.

The only reason he would have remained in the fog is if he continued those behaviors that fueled the his fog. Exposure does not wipe the fog completely off the map, but it the START of the process. You have to actually take steps to affair proof the marriage afterwards and that wasn't done. We are giving you those next steps.

I promise you that hiding the affair for him only serves to fuel the fog. But you already know that. The best way to lift the fog and kill the affair is to expose the affair. And you already know that exposure will kill the affair.


I would DEMAND that he end his affair now and send the letter or make arrangements to move out. But it doesn't sound like you are taking exposure seriously. Covering up his affair for him only serves to fuel the fog and enable the affair.

Is this pastor keeping the affair a secret?

"Moving toward" is not a plan, though. hope is not a plan. It is obvious he has not ended contact or he would not be so upset about ending contact.

Susie, this timid approach is not going to do the trick. There is nothing here to hold onto. A very limited "secret" exposure,[secret=useless] refusal to end contact, none of that is hopeful. Those are very basic first steps that are necessary to effect recovery. I don't understand the point of talking to the pastor if he is going to keep EXPOSURE a secret.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

ML - yes, he is.

You know I am not comfortable with full exposure. It is something that is undoable. Unless and until I am convinced it's the right thing, I cannot follow through with it, not least because I would not be able to defend my actions afterwards, because I have always been persuadable.

I am finally, step by step, taking positions that I am happy to defend against the people who have most persuaded me in the past (parents and H). If I take any action I cannot defend at this point that undoes what I have achieved.

Tonight I stood my ground about loving him and wanting to stick with the marriage and believing we can make it work; that he needs to send the NC letter; that he is foggy about the A; and that I will not engage with anything to do with it including defending my actions to do with it. This is big for me.

Susie, you were asked if you have a keylogger on the computer and I don't see the answer. Did you install one? THis is very important especially if he won't give you his passwords.

Is your WH FB friends with OW?

You keep telling us that you *believe* there is no contact but you aren't telling us what we really need to know, which is how you are snooping.

I hope you will answer these questions...
Do you have:

Keylogger installed on computer?

VAR installed in car?

GPS installed in car?

Re - key logger. No, I don't. I looked into this, but was not comfortable as it is his computer (rather than a joint computer) and the privacy stuff said that it should not be installed on someone else's computer, I think including a spouse's. Am I wrong about this?

H is FB friends with OW. I don't think he uses it, though, so I don't think I'd get his password from a key logger. If he we're having contact it would be by text.

Nothing in the car. We don't use the car much.

How could he become FB friends with her if he doesn't use FB? Do you see how you are twisting everything around so that you don't have to see the truth?

Without even doing further snooping to find out what other contact there is (which I am certain there is much more going on here that you don't know) what you already have evidence of is an ONGOING A. Not "moving toward" NC.

What WH is doing is tossing some crumbs at you because he KNOWS you will back down.

Susie, no one is "comfortable" with exposure. The goal here is to save your marriage, not to make you "comfortable." If your goal is to be "comfortable" you should give up now.

We have shown you Dr Harley's position on exposure and his explanation of why this works. [a credentialed, licensed psychologist who specializes in infidelity] If you refuse to take tried and true professional guidance, there is nothing we can do to help you. Instead, you take your own counsel and it was your best thinking that has led you to this terrible place. Dr Harley, on the other hand, has saved thousands of marriages in his long career. You have saved none.

How much sense does it make to ignore the advice of a leading psychologist who specializes in infidelity in favor of your own unprofessional, and very unobjective opinion?


I don't see you taking any actions at all. All you have done is secretly tell a pastor and ask your husband to write a letter. [which he refused] Rather I see you being very complacent and doing nothing. "Moving toward" is not the same as taking action. Telling a pastor, who will keep the affair a secret, is a worthless step that will avail you nothing.


How is that "standing your ground?" He already knows you love him and will tolerate absolutely anything. That sure does not motivate him to change.


Has he ended the affair? Has he written the NC letter? Nothing has happened, Susie. It will take a much more proactive approach to save your marriage.

He accepts friend requests. He has hundreds as he is a well-known figure in his line of work. Her friend request was normal early on.

This is such FLAGRANT enabling that I am just speechless. You are the problem, Susie. Your goal is to be "comfortable' rather than take serious steps to save your marriage. I would point out that you won't be comfortable when he leaves you for the OW. You are headed to divorce right now because you won't do anything to save your marriage.

There is nothing we can do if you insist on enabling his affair.