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This is a really clear example of a man with internal locus thinking/behavior. What specifically triggered you today?
Write it down. Then cross it out. Whatever poison it has today will be reduced tomorrow.
As I became a serious sports official, I decided my goal was to make every mistake ONCE. When I was struggling with triggers, I forced myself to let each trigger only hurt me ONCE. Eventually I stopped making mistakes; eventually I ran out of triggers. This is a man empowered.
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NG,
You never cease to amaze me...I wish I could obtain your mental stamina, my friend.
Thanks for being here.
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PB & HFD:  Thank you.
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NG -
When I was a new graduate RN, I was like every other new grad .... scared I might make a mistake and actually cause someone to die !
No pressure, right?
My first job was NICU. The littlest/sickest neonates.
No pressure, right?
What I decided to do on my daily drive home from work was to review what I had learned that day. I also vowed not to repeat any errors. So, instead of beating myself up over not being a perfect RN right out of school, I created for myself a path of continued improvement.
It served me well.
Not only did I not cause anyone to die, I really became a stronger RN on a daily basis. Because that's what I determined I would accomplish.
What I am saying is this.
Our thought process really dictates how we solve/approach problems/difficulties.
I love your sports official example.
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My guiding thought is "I don't know spit, but I can learn..."
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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A gem from AoMNegative Freedom/Freedom From
Negative freedom is freedom from external interference that prevents you from doing what you want, when you want to do it. These restrictions are placed on you by other people. The more negative freedom you have, the less obstacles that exist between you and doing whatever it is you desire.
Charles Taylor calls negative freedom an �opportunity concept� of freedom because it gives you access to a range of desirable opportunities, regardless of whether you decide to take advantage of those opportunities or not.
The concept of negative freedom can be summed up as: �I am a slave to no man.� Freedom from, negative freedom, is an external locus of control. You can or cannot do something as dictated by external forces. Negative freedom does not like the PoJA. Negative freedom is a wayward who "needs space." Positive Freedom/Freedom To
Positive freedom is the freedom to control and direct one�s own life. Positive freedom allows a man to consciously make his own choices, create his own purpose, and shape his own life; he acts instead of being acted upon.
Taylor calls positive freedom an �exercise concept� of freedom because it involves discriminating between all possible opportunities, and exercising the options that are most in line with your real will and what you truly want in life.
The concept of positive freedom can be summed up as: �I am my own master.� Let's repeat; "...it involves discriminating between all possible opportunities, and eercising the options that are most in line with your real will and what you truly want in life.We act instead of being acted upon. While people are no longer imposing external restrictions on you, you decide that in order to become the man you want to be, you will have to come up with your own rules for yourself and set your own limits. You willingly work on developing your self-control, self-discipline, and willpower. In so doing, you gain the ability to control your lower desires in order to fulfill your higher desires. For example, the driver in the story above quits smoking, so that his addiction no longer controls his decisions.
Philosophers like Kant would say that these self-imposed restrictions do not decrease your overall negative freedom, because you have created the laws yourself, of your own free will and choice, and no man can enslave himself. Your negative freedom can only be constrained by others, who coerce you to do things contrary to your will. By learning to control and harness your desires, you actually become more autonomous. You�re not only free from external restrictions, but you are no longer a slave to your passions. You not only have the freedom of standing in a hallway of an infinite number of doors, you also have the freedom to step through any of them. Self-mastery is the master key that opens all doors. . PoJA is not a force enacted upon us by our spouse. It is something we enact upon ourselves. Or is it? Well, it can be! If, in utilizing PoJA, our spouses keep us accountable to a promise to ourselves, rather than enacting Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, or Selfish Demands in reaction to said violations, then we are still only constrained by rules we have set for ourselves.No man can enslave himself. Accountability is not control - punishment via use of Love Busters is an attempt at control. Men who shift from thinking exclusively about negative freedom to thinking about positive freedom as well discover that the restrictions they place on themselves do not limit their negative freedom�while their self-discipline does close off some possibilities, it opens new ones only available to those who have the positive freedom to grasp them. Almost any man can get a job; only a man with positive freedom can get his dream job. Almost any man can become a husband and a father; only a man with positive freedom can become a good husband and a good father. On the other hand, men who do not mature past a singular focus on freedom from, see all restrictions, whether imposed by others or imposed by self, as limits on their negative freedom. If they discover that something they want is behind a locked door, instead of working on overcoming that inner obstacle, they shrug their shoulders and decide that they didn�t really want it anyway. For this reason, men who get stuck in Stage 2 make less progress in life and never reach the highest levels of �self-actualization,� superhuman-ness if you will. Freedom from-dwellers also end up being restless and dissatisfied with their lives. Feeling in control of your life creates happiness and satisfaction, and feeling in control comes from gaining positive freedom from self-mastery. A man with positive freedom makes a strong connection between his purpose, what he has to give up to obtain that purpose, and the fact that he does so willingly. He understands the law of sacrifice, and takes ownership of and responsibility for his choices. Uh oh. Big dirty word there. "Sacrifice." I think that the word is oft-misused here. I have yet to write the radio show about my thoughts on it because... well, I keep forgetting. Let me think of a very simple portrait of positive sacrifice; I'll use a Mel example - a couple wants to go out to dinner. One hates Chinese and loves Mexican, the other hates Mexican and loves Chinese. The best solution is to have neither because one spouse gains at the expense of the other. Even in this scenario, there is sacrifice - both are sacrificing an opportunity to have a food they love for the happiness of their spouse. Here is the kicker - what sacrifice is, is giving up something of lesser value, for something of greater value. One meal sacrificed for the happiness of your spouse. For the Christians; the life of Christ for the sins of those that would repent. Summed up; Whenever I think of the law of sacrifice, I picture the scene at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Elsa, the hot Nazi babe, is dangling over the abyss; one of her hands is held by Indy while she grasps with the other to reach the Holy Grail, which is just out of reach. Believing she can have the grail and walk away with her life as well, she refuses to choose and give Indiana her other hand, and is thus rewarded with a plummet to her death. Indy almost suffers the same fate; as his dad holds onto him, he too reaches for the grail. But he listens to the advice of his father, and he sacrifices the thing that is worth less�the artifact�for the thing that he values more�his life and the chance for another adventure.
Failing to understand the law of sacrifice also leads to a life of restlessness and regret. When you believe you can have whatever you want, without giving up anything in return, you can never fully embrace and enjoy your choices. For example, sometimes I�ll have a moment where I miss the freedom of my childless days. But would I give up Gus to return to that time? Absolutely not. I sacrificed one thing�more freedom�for something I believe has greater value�a child.
Great unhappiness arises when we fail to acknowledge the necessity of sacrifice and subconsciously hold the idea in our heads that we can have both things at the same time. You move across the country for a new adventure, but you spend all your time missing your old family and friends. You must recognize that you wouldn�t be having the experience you are enjoying now if you had never left. You wish you could sow some more wild oats and sleep with a lot of women, but at the same time, you would never want to give up the incredible relationship you have with your wife. You must embrace the fact that there are trade-offs in life and that you can�t have one thing without giving up another. An external Locus - freedom from - sees giving up playing golf all weekend to have a date with his wife as a sacrifice with improper proportions. He has to sacrifice golf to please his wife. An internal Locus - freedom to - sees giving up golf all weekend to have a date with his wife as a rewarding proportioned sacrifice; a few hours of golf lost for a lifetime of romantic, loving marriage. Creating the freedom to fulfill your values is self-empowering. This is precisely what psychiatrist Viktor Emil Frankl observed when he lived among his fellow prisoners�men who had been stripped of every vestige of their negative freedom�at the Nazis� Theresienstadt concentration camp. As Frankl recounts in his famous book, Man�s Search for Meaning:
In spite of all the enforced physical and mental primitiveness of the life in a concentration camp, it was possible for spiritual life to deepen. Sensitive people who were used to a rich intellectual life may have suffered much pain (they were often of a delicate constitution), but the damage to their inner selves was less. They were able to retreat from their terrible surroundings to a life of inner riches and spiritual freedom. Only in this way can one explain the apparent paradox that some prisoners of a less hardy makeup often seemed to survive camp life better than did those of a robust nature�
The experiences of camp life show that man does have a choice of action. There were enough examples, often of a heroic nature, which proved that apathy could be overcome, irritability suppressed. Man can preserve a vestige of spiritual freedom, of independence of mind, even in such terrible conditions of psychic and physical stress.
We who lived, in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms � to choose one�s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one�s own way.
Last edited by HoldHerHand; 02/23/12 06:58 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Can anyone shed some light on how the external locus of control is linked to a freeloader and hence a freeloader is the same as someone in the FOG?
In B, R, & F - Dr. Harley discusses the buyer/freeloader link as someone in an affair.
The wayward has become a freeloader ... Is it the fog that makes them a freeloader or the devaluing of the value system, hence is controlled by your Locus?
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Thank you so very much for the thoughtful and insightful post.
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Can anyone shed some light on how the external locus of control is linked to a freeloader and hence a freeloader is the same as someone in the FOG?
In B, R, & F - Dr. Harley discusses the buyer/freeloader link as someone in an affair.
The wayward has become a freeloader ... Is it the fog that makes them a freeloader or the devaluing of the value system, hence is controlled by your Locus? It's like being a feather on the wind, or a leaf in a stream. Travel is in no way under the control of either of those objects; the wind blows and the water flows and they move along. The bump into things here and there and the direction changes. The foggy states; "You were pushing me away for a long time!" They had no control, no choice, see? How could they? The foggy states; "It just happened!" Again, no control. There wasn't planning involved! There wasn't a chain of decisions, and a cascade of boundary crossings before ultimate betrayal. It just happened, BANG! Like instant cocoa! An external locus of control (freedom from) means that none of your actions are decisions are your own, and are all decided by external forces and factors. Considering this, a freeloader is going to bail when they begin having a high negative freedom, because they are not invested in anything enough to build their own positive freedom. Ack. Now I'm talking like a hippy. I need a shower.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Make that low negative freedom. A depiction of negative freedom; Imagine a man driving a car. He comes to a crossroads. There is no traffic light, no police roadblock, and no other cars; the driver is free to turn whichever way he wants to, and he decides to turn left. This is negative freedom; the driver is free from restrictions which force him to go one way or the other. But what if the driver turned left because he needed to stop at a convenience store to get cigarettes, and he stopped even though it would mean missing an important appointment? It was his addiction that was really steering the car. This shows a lack of positive freedom; the driver lacked the freedom to do what he really wanted�to get to the appointment on time.
As the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy explains:
This story gives us two contrasting ways of thinking of liberty. On the one hand, one can think of liberty as the absence of obstacles external to the agent. You are free if no one is stopping you from doing whatever you might want to do. In the above story you appear, in this sense, to be free. On the other hand, one can think of liberty as the presence of control on the part of the agent. To be free, you must be self-determined, which is to say that you must be able to control your own destiny in your own interests. In the above story you appear, in this sense, to be unfree: you are not in control of your own destiny, as you are failing to control a passion that you yourself would rather be rid of and which is preventing you from realizing what you recognize to be your true interests. One might say that while on the first view liberty is simply about how many doors are open to the agent, on the second view it is more about going through the right doors for the right reasons. So, positive freedom is about making the choices which support our internal values. A wayward or a freeloader is stuck on negative freedom (external locus of control) and what they have freedom from - namely, the freedom to do whatever they want whenever they want without repercussions. They become "trapped" by the values of marriage. Positive freedom dictates that we are "self-determined, which is to say that you must be able to control your own destiny in your own interests." The fog focuses on the negative freedom aspect - "It was his addiction that was really steering the car." What the fog is, is the wayward telling themselves that they are in control, and not the addiction. It is the wayward changing their values to appear in control when they aren't.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I see. So if I'm reading you right, some of us have this internal locus thingy, and the rest of us are just out of luck, because nature/God didn't choose to endow us with one and gave us an external locus instead? Is that right? I think I was quite funny here, but I was being completely sarcastic, and I worry that people coming to this thread will miss what I think is obvious sarcasm and think I was serious. Pepperband's whole point here is exactly the opposite of my silly little joke. Unfortunately my silly little joke is the way lots of lousy spouses think.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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We who lived, in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread.
They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms � to choose one�s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one�s own way. Sigh. I love Viktor Frankl! I love this post! I'm going to go read Arbinger RIGHT NOW. What's the name of the "first book?"
"When you love someone, all your saved up wishes start coming out."
Elizabeth Bowen
(Changed my profile name, as it was appearing in Google searches. Yikes!)
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OK, so I'm kind of an anthropology person: I love the study of cultures and mindsets. Feel free to skip this post if you are more comfortable with black/white thinking. This one's gonna get gray. And I'll say a couple of vaguely political things too, so skip if that bugs you. While I LOVE this idea of Internal Locus of Control - and realize that's what I live by when I'm at my "best" - I am intrigued by cultures that are more 'group' or 'collective-oriented.' These cultures impose a host of external controls literally from the birth of a baby, teaching him/her that external control is the "only" control that matters. I've seen this first-hand, and it is powerful. If you're interested, check out this quick introduction to "Guilt v. Shame" cultures: http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htmAnyway, my curiosity has me wondering, "Gee, this internal locus of control works GREAT in western society. We are individualistic, and we value democracy and the rights of each person. Therefore, we hold individuals responsible for their actions." (OK, somewhat. I realize this isn't 100%, but it's pretty darn strong compared to Group Cultures) For example, with evidence & a fair trial we (mostly) send the guilty criminal to prison (here in the West). However, in other cultures, we assassinate the criminal and also imprison his entire family for 20 years: women, children, servants. And we all (in this culture) agree that the punishment is "just" since the criminal belongs to a group, and they must share in the shame of the crime. (Read "Stolen Lives" if you're curious: interesting true story of East Meets West Criminal Justice) So, my ultra-philosophical side is sneaking up behind me (see how 'helpless' I am?) and whispering, "Is internal control 'Better' than external? Or is it just the path to a more successful life in a Western culture?" I am choosing to listen to it (see how powerful I am?). Here's the point: If you tried to be all "Internally Controlled" in a strong Shame/Collectivistic culture, you'd be stoned, or killed, or at the very least, exiled. Not a successful outcome for ya. Then again, if you went ahead and lived within the "External Controls" of that culture, you would be very successful and achieve great honor for yourself and your group (the greatest achievement one could possess - in that society). This is why I personally believe that Democracy cannot be externally motivated (i.e. go to war, oust a Dictator, tell the local peeps that they're "Free to be a Democracy" now. Whoopie!). It must come from within: that sense of Internal Locus of Control rising up, and breathing for the first time. This is why I'm excited about the Arab Spring: they are doing it themselves. So I guess this is a 360. I'm back to believing that Internal is the path to a better life. Psych! When you research the most long-standing, strongest societies: they were ALL collectivistic with strong heirarchies, fatalistic in their thinking, and they imposed control on their members in order to achieve the goals of the group. Pyramids at Giza, Aztec monuments, Great Wall of China, etc. Those weren't democracies, honey-bun. But hey, I sure wouldn't have wanted to be one of those low-caste slaves either. But if I were, I'd think "God put me here, I must do my duty and not complain." Sheesh. Plus, they were all about 'arranged marriages' and stuff. No POJA happenin'! I guess I LOVE Internal Locus of control because it's what I was raised to believe in. So even my preference for an Internal Locus was (gulp) "imposed upon me by my culture of birth!" Even my desire for self-control was externally created!!! AAGHH! One last reference, for anyone who is interested in this conundrum of Individual v. Collectivist control: read "The Lessons of History" by Will and Ariel Durant. Please check out the chapter on Socialism and History, for a great overview of the pendulum swing that cultures have made between group-orientation and individual-orientation. (sometimes called Capitalism and Communism). There are pros and cons to each, and neither is perfect. Therefore, societies keep swinging. And so does this armchair philosopher.
"When you love someone, all your saved up wishes start coming out."
Elizabeth Bowen
(Changed my profile name, as it was appearing in Google searches. Yikes!)
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Internal locus of control does not mean one cannot work within a society--it only means they choose to, rather than being externally motivated to do against their own will in order to gain a society. External locus of control is not a military state, it is where a person places their self worth. It is simply introvert/extrovert: where someone gets a sense of their worth.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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We who lived, in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread.
They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms � to choose one�s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one�s own way. Sigh. I love Viktor Frankl! I love this post! I'm going to go read Arbinger RIGHT NOW. What's the name of the "first book?" The Frankl quote is from Man's Search for Meaning. The article quoting it is on The Art of Manliness, and is linked in the first line of the post (AoM). How does that stand out for you? "...everything can be taken from a (wo)man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms � to choose one�s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one�s own way." Hmmm...
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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External locus of control is not a military state, it is where a person places their self worth. Agreed. I was not referring to any military state - I've never experienced one first-hand anyway. My point was that many cultures mold children from birth to find their sense of self-worth in the group - not the individual. This is interesting even biblically, from a 'salvation' perspective. Ever notice how often the phrase, "He and his household were baptized," is used? In their culture, salvation was not simply an individual decision - Westerners assume it was, because they read the Bible with Western eyes and hearts. Very often, whole families/tribes came to believe as a group. In fact, a thoughtful study of missiology will show that some people groups never had many converts (only 'outcasts' converted) until an influential leader converted. Then people came in droves. This is not a "bad" way to come to faith. It is simply indicative of the importance of "belonging" among those people. Anyway, I'd also love the hear the thoughts of others who have lived in a non-Western culture for a length of time. It's a fascinating (and humbling!) experience. (I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts, actually - only meant that other 'expats' might have had similar experiences to mine)
"When you love someone, all your saved up wishes start coming out."
Elizabeth Bowen
(Changed my profile name, as it was appearing in Google searches. Yikes!)
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The govt made me go back to get my masters degree because they gave me a ton of student loans I wasn't ready to pay back. Does this mean it's not my fault that I'm so educated now?
Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)
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OK, so I'm kind of an anthropology person: I love the study of cultures and mindsets. Feel free to skip this post if you are more comfortable with black/white thinking. This one's gonna get gray. And I'll say a couple of vaguely political things too, so skip if that bugs you. I hate that my thread has been hijacked. Get as grey as you want. Start a new thread on your topic. Thanks.
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Last edited by Pepperband; 06/22/12 09:13 AM.
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All gone! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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