Sometimes things look wrong or as mistakes in hindsight but if you change the outcome (like your WW repents and recommits to the marriage) then such mistakes aren't as apparent or regretted or really mistakes at all (Plan A, for example, would/could look like a complete mistake and waste of time to many divorced persons who have a tendency to then believe that NOTHING could have ever changed their spouse and that's the way it is in any situation they THINK resembles theres)

It gets tough....in that I haven't experienced your outcome and you haven't experienced mine. I TRY to give advice and give hope for as long as the betrayed spouse needs it. Divorced posters, having experienced that prolonged pain have a tendency to want to alleviate the posters pain by getting them to cut bait a bit earlier. IMO, the outcome will take care of itself....teach then to do what they can to effect the outcome to the extent possible and guide them through the process towards divorce or reconciliation/rebuilding in time.

Most importantly...we've got to remember that "WE" are not the experts. Dr. Harley is. Our experience, though relevant, is still only a sample size of ONE so it's relevancy is limited.

Perhaps the biggest mistake...as much as we want to help...would be advising and trying to find shortcuts. For example....telling a BH to give an ultimatum he's not prepared to enforce or ready/capable of delivering...YET. It may be the best advice but if they are ready...it's a wasted post.

Mr. Wondering

MB is a process.
Some people are faster to process.
Some situations are more accessible to MB process.
It depends on where they start.


Go for it.
Sounds like a lively conversation, for sure.

Yes, and I don't fault them for that. I understand it. I also understand how some BSs(ahem, not mentioning any names, ME), just aren't ready to consider the big D. Plan A and Plan B helped get me closer and helps me feel like I have earned my way out. I did ALL that I could. If it ends in a D, then it wasn't because of something I did or didn't do to try to save it. Ya know?

New rant.

People come here in various states of disarray.
At times, they arrive with thinking so disorganized from trauma that they can barely function.

When a poster says;

"I am distraught" ............ BELIEVE IT. Don't IGNORE it.

That poster is feeling UNglued.

I need to remember to post to the "distraught" keeping in mind what being in that condition means.
Lest we forget what it actually FEELS like when we are distraught.
We can't follow logic.
We can't remember ordinary things.
We entertain dark thoughts.
We self doubt to the brink of self hatred.

I've recently found myself posting unkindly and without empathy to someone who is just starting to pull out of "distraught".
Not a proud moment for me.

Sometimes, being 16 years into recovery is a disadvantage.

Distraught, unglued... Sucks.

Ya'll have Muppets, I had 12 Angry Men.

Sympathy tells us to wallow with them. Empathy tells us to help them find the glue.

When the pit of despair that someone is trapped in is due to the destruction of a marriage, Marriage Builders is the glue. Recover your marriage, or recover yourself to a marriage-minded position.

Please, pass the glue!

When a person presents with a blood glucose level up in the treetops, it's dumb to do the diabetic teaching until they return to Earth.
Same thing here.
There is something to say for timing.

Rant part 2

Calling a distraught Noobie with fewer than 5 posts under his belt names is counterproductive and is probably backlash from some other situation. Inappropriate for sure.

Ack!

Durn you, I got nothing against that!

Here is my issue; the best I feel that I can offer to someone anonymously through a computer screen, if they are into it REALLY deep is; get help. Get help now!

"But, isn't that what I'm here for?"

Yes, yes it is. But, the setting is limited by time and space.

Go somewhere, find someone. Get. Help.

This is one reason, in adultery cases, why exposure is key; you need that flesh and blood, real time support.

Orrr... We could be better at letting people brain-dump. Some people just want to be heard (respectful request that brain-dumpers please label their neuro-trash)

I am not talking about letting people brain dump.
I am talking about fresh off the boat noobies in PAIN.
Maybe a better medical analogy. Just between us

A patient arrives in an asthmatic state.
Not quite crisis, but close.
What ya gonna do first?
Bring out the educational pamphlets?
Yell at them for being non-compliant as they cough and gasp for air?
No, of course not.
You get them closer to baseline before you lecture them about smoking, or using their prevention inhaler regularly.

Why? Because people in crisis cannot assimilate new information very well. You know that. I know that. I'm reminding myself and all of us smarty-pants MBers.

Truthfully, HHH, I'm sort of close to 12 angry men myself.
I'm steroid stupid and not happy about it.
Soon, this will all be behind me.
Have patience with me.
I'm in a state of my own.

I'm on board with ya, Pep.

I get what you are saying.

How about a more direct analogy; someone arrives with a horrible arm fracture, and in pain.

In this instance, you would more than likely treat the pain before setting the bone.

Here's where we disconnect; you are viewing bringing the principals forward to patient Ed., whereas I view it as the actual treatment.

Now possible agreement; you ain't getting very close with a needle to a flailing patient. They first need to calm down.
It doesn't mean the pain and panic is gone, it means they will remain calm and quiet enough to receive treatment.

The problem; getting to the state of calm.

The approach is not unilateral. Some respond to soft and gentle, some respond to firm.

Best practice; start with gentle.

Risk; will power is a limited resource. If it requires will power to approach gently, wait and allow those who can do so, do so. When firm is your thing, and firm is required, then step in - save your will power for efficiency.

And, Pep, I appreciate what you have been doing lately. We all need a good mamma-smack once in a while!

ROTFLOL

Markos, the glue is not for sniffing!

Dearest Pep, your words needed to be repeated. I've done the same, in a brisk and sanitary effort to cut to the chase and get that new poster all squared away, post haste.

It's not that I'm UNempathetic. It's that I still remember those horrid early days, and I want to take that away from the poster if I can do so at all. It's that I've seen the movie. I know some things that may well affect the ending, so let's just get there. KWIM? But you're right - it IS a process.

Here goes a kinder, gentler maritalbliss, off to greet a new posting day...

Growing a spine is tough, tedious, intentional and painful. And we have to do it in the face of betrayal, which typically weakens us.

When we forget what it was to live without a spine, and how hard it was for us to grow our own, we lose our compassion and have the potential to be just one more bully in the life of a frightened betrayed spouse.

Of course, recalling the pain of living without a spine adds to the intensity of our conviction to get someone through that process post-haste.

I remember the countless numbers of spineless women who eventually grew one - to name one or two is to minimize the impact for the legions of those transformed. But lest we forget that those successful ones took sometimes months and years to grow that backbone, and try to help someone grow one in days instead, that's where the potential to help is lost.

Pep - I really appreciated what you wrote yesterday. It reminds me of one of my favorite songs:
Words and Music by Micheal McLean

Can I eat paste, then?

O.M.G.

Kayla and MissBliss and everyone else.

I know our intentions are to help.
Otherwise we would not be here.
Thanks for your understanding and encouragement and guidance.

Primum non nocere

BTW, Pep... Last post was about the issue; the mounting frustration, and how we arrive at it.

See the end and the three assumptions we make.