Hello everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while and I think the site is amazing. It's certainly helped me understand what is wrong in my own marriage.

Some history:
Been together 10 years married 3, no kids. Living together for 9 years.

On 19th Dec we spoke about things for the frst time. She said that for the past year my wife hasn't been happy. As we talked more the following things came out:

1. She's not in love with me any more.

2. She didn't feel independent anymore, she has low self esteem (inwardly, outward she she seems fine). She feels cocooned and thinks her self esteem is linked to her independence. I've stopped her doing some of the things she wants to do.

3. Over the past year (or longer) I'm been negative about certain things (foriegn holidays, her doing a abseil, and really small things like having a go at her when she was she was late on a night out and I was picking her up (I had to wait int he car and then drive for an hour to drop her friends off) so I was angry.

4. I worry too much about her. She sees the worry as doubt. I.e. if I worry about her driving to Telford on her own she thinks I think she is unable to drive all that way on her own. She thinks I doubt her ability. Which isn't true at all. I really worry that some one will crash into her, I have no doubt about her ability.

5. We never argue properly. I sometimes get angry. She never does. She just pushes the feelings away.

I introduced the EN concept and she ranked them almost the same as me. 1. Affection, 2, converstaion etc. However, she said Independence is high on her list (no. 3).

Reciently I've been trying to do 15 hours or UA. She is sort of responding. However, she is stil very upset (crying every day, throwing her self in work, not sleeping) and I'm not sure she thinks there is any future.

This morning, I woke up angry. I'm the one trying to fix things and she seems resigned to splitting up. I really feel like giving up today.

My question to you all is what should I do? I could move out or have a temporary split? Or should she move out? Or should I carry on trying?

Thanks for reading.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, Clean Shirt.

Your wife sounds like a 'renter' - not a 'buyer', when it comes to your marriage. Check out this link to see the difference. It's an older discussion thread on 'buyers, renters & freeloaders.' Here

Also, you should know that 'independence' isn't an emotional need- it's a behavior that often is self-serving to the individual and dangerous for the marriage. I'm not sure why you and your wife think independence is a need?
Learn more about Emotional Needs here There is a link at the bottom of this article that will take you to the actual quiz.

Hi Cleanshirt, welcome to Marriage Builders. The problem in your marriage is highlighted above, her independence. Independent behavior is not an emotional need, but a lovebuster that is destructive to marriage. Read up on it here: Independent Behavior

It most especially plagues those who lived together before marriage. Those who live together before marriage carry their independent lifestyles into marriage along with other bad habits like sacrifice. People who make sacrifices keep score and when the score is not even, demands and abuse ensue to even the score. Harley writes about it here: Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?

Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders She has a renters attitude that is best described in this book.

The problem from my perspective is that she has fallen out of love because of many of these behaviors. Since she has a renters outlook on marriage, her solution to marriage problems is to leave the marriage rather than fix the problems. And she may have even met someone new.


Can you be more specific?

Thanks for replying MartialBliss, need to look at the renters link and full absorb it all. There is so much to read here!

I don't think independance is a need, she does. (I rated it last on my EN list). I asked her if she thought there was any needs missing from the list and she came up with it.

Why do you think my wife thinks its a need? Is it replacing some other EN?

Thanks for your help

Thanks for replying MelodyLane,

I need to read up on IB.

I haven't actually physically stopped her doing anything. It's more of a case that she knows I don't like her doing certain things (running alone, driving far on her own, skiing) so she felt guilty and didn't do those things (or didn't tell me about it). I think there have been many, many of these and they have built up in her mind. However, I never really knew there was a problem because she never said anything.

She said she felt cocooned and protected from the world and this made her sad. She wants to be able to feel like she can survive on her own.

I realize my behaviour wasn't depositing much love but for me these are tiny problems and I don't even remeber then. She remebers then 100% and are big problems for her.

Today I read the aricles on Giver/Taker and the 3 states of marriage. It was like they were written about me and her specifically. She is in Withdrawl and I am in Itamacy rolling in to Conflict. All the EN I'm meeting reciently are beeing defected by her shield.

I really felt like giving up today, but after reading that article it gave me hope. I don't want to be a horrible person.

Am I doing to right thing to continue trying?

Thank you so much

It's not a 'need' - it's a 'want'. Your wife wants to behave independently of your marriage. An emotional need involves YOU, and what YOU supply to her that gives her a sense of love and fulfillment. Did you read the emotional needs link that I gave you? Here are the top needs, identified by Dr. Harley:

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

Her independent behavior has been detrimental to your marriage.

Ok, I understand. the question is. What can I do to fix my marrage?

Another thought:

When your wife says that "independence" is highon her list, she may be saying that you are controlling. She may think that she is agreeing with your decisions. She may think that your "worrying" is really about controlling what she is doing and not trusting her.

You should read about the Policy of Joint Agreement and make sure that she is *truly* equally as happy about your joint decisions as you are.

So you say you don't like her to go skiing. Why? She probably sees that as controlling. Millions of people go skiing all the time. Why can't she?

In the ideal marriage, she wouldn't do anything that you both hadn't enthusiastically agreed to. But why are you not agreeing to it? Because you think she will get hurt? Because she is doing it without you? Could you learn to ski? Could you both find some other recreational pursuit that you could do together?

You need to figure out why you dont' like her doing some activities and then think more about how you can be more comfortable with her doing them. Because "I worry you might get hurt" sounds like to you that you are concerned and caring, but to her sounds controlling and borderline abusive.

Now you are trying to "fix things"...also be careful that she doesn't feel railroaded into doing things she doesn't want to. Make sure she can feel safe about saying "No I would not like to go to the movies, I would prefer going on a hike, what do you think about that?" She may not feel safe in disagreeing with you.

This is exactly it. She's thinks I don't think she is capable.


I didn't stop her as such, it's just she knew I wouldn't like it (I'm scared something would happen to her whilst away). She is/was going to do it anyway but the resentment has built up. She is almost doing it to prove me wrong. That she can do these things on her own.


Yes to all of the above, worried she would be hurt, I can't do it so I'm sort of jealous. I could learn (I would probably enjoy it too), but I was negative about trying it.


I 100% agree this is a big issue for us. I'm trying not to be like that anymore but I'm worried it's too late


Will do, thank you very much for your post.

My situation is very similar, I'll be tagging along, eager to hear some replies.

Welcome to MB .. if your wife is doing independant things and complaining that she is not in love with you and that your controlling .. I would start snooping. I would ask yourself since she claims to not be in love with you .. Who is she in love with? Seems obvious to me she is comparing you to someone. Now I am not saying that is 100% sure .. but I would begin taking steps to rule that out.

Did you know that asuming your wife CANT do something is a disrespectful judgement?

I would do some snooping IE: set up a keylogger on the home PC .. and or put some monitoring apps on her phone or a VAR in her car to see who she talks to while she drives to these independant activities .. and do a Stellar PLAN A in the meantime. Chances are there may be an emotional affair going on here ... something to contrast her feelings about you with.

Read ALL the basic concepts ...

Get 2 copies of the emotional needs questionairs
Get 2 copies of hte love busters questionairs

Do them

Read all relevent articles and question and answer columns.

If in your snooping you find something suspicious .. bring it here for the vets to help you put togther a plan of action. ALl your efforts to meet her needs if she is having an affair will be trumped by her addiction of her source of whereever she is getting her needs for intimate conversation met. Intimate conversation is usually in top 2 for women and it doesnt take much for her to complain to an OM about her marriage and for him to start saying the right things to her and for her to fall in love with him ... even if he is not aware she is .. that alone can create such a contrast agasint you ... that she will seem very distant.

MNG

An emotional need is something that is defined as something that creates love in your marriage. Her IB does not do that. It ERODES the love in your marriage. It is a lovebuster. Her IB means she gains at your expense. That does not help your marriage one bit.

No, he doesn't need to ask himself why. If he doesn't like it he shouldn't agree to it. That is not abusive. But engaging in IB *IS* an abusive and thoughtless strategy. It sounds like she is committed to a strategy of abuse. If he agrees to things he doesn't like, then pretty soon he falls out of love. The POJA does not mean agreeing to things that make him unhappy. It means finding things to do together that both are ENTHUSIASTIC about. If he tells her this makes him unhappy, he is not "controlling" her. But if she does something that she knows makes him unhappy, she is behaving thoughtlessly and not considering his feelings.

Remember, an IB is defined as such:

here

Cleanshirt, as a reformed Queen of Independent Behavior, I will just warn you that the favored method of deflection is to accuse our husbands of being "controlling" when they object to something.

Don't LET her play that tired old card. The health of your marriage is very contingent upon you NOT agreeing to things that make you unhappy. Don't let her bully you with the "controlling" card.

Here is what my poor husband wrote to Dr Harley about my own IB back in 2007:

To quote Dwayne Johnson - It doesn't matter why he isn't enthusiastic!

Leading to this line of questioning is just a way to lead to sacrifice, not PoJA. Enthusiastic agreement is what matters.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, that is how you get to PoJA.

Yes I do realise that. However, my intention is not to suggest she can't do something. In fact, she is reading that from my worry. She is very capable but somehow I'm givng her the wrong message.


Thanks for your advice, I have shown her the Basic Concepts and she is going to read them this afternoon.

We are going out for dinner just the two of us tonight (I arranged it, and I'm glad she has agreed to come). I can't remember just the two of us going out for dinner more than 2 or 3 times in the last year. We normally go out once a week with friends, but never alone.

Need to look up Plan A.

Thank you for reading.

Yes, I'm starting to see this. POJA is a odd thing for me at the moment. And I'm not sure how my wife will react to it. But I can see how it would stop alot of the tiny problems we have not being resolved and resentment being built.

If she is crying everyday, that to me is a red flag.
Then she is either depressed, or something fishy is going on. Nobody is going to cry EVERY DAY about a husband being controlling. That is annoying, but not devastating.

If she does not sleep well and is feeling hopeless, or does not enjoy life like she used to, I would tip depression. Otherwise...

Well if she should be depressed, you will get picked at majorly for minor faults of yours. If you feel unhappy, you will seek out a reason for your unhappiness, even if the unhappiness is caused by chemical imbalance.

Anyway, to POJA, meet EN, and expecially avoid love busters, is a very good idea.

Good luck,

Happyheart

Where do you see that she is crying everyday?