And yes, I am listening to the radio clip. It doesn't really seem to apply to me, though; I'm not under undue financial or familial pressure due to my long-ago decision, not wracked with guilt or regret, not wracked by lack of trust or whatever other karmic nonsense people believe is inevitable. No exes or kids seething in the background. I am not expecting unconditional love from my H; I've always believed the honeymoon stage was a temporary thing.

If I had it to do over, sure, I'd do things differently. This is not possible, however.

What I DO think is that I have an character defect, sort of like an alcoholic. I also think my husband is depressed and in need of medication.

I do NOT think my marriage itself is hopeless, and really I can't take advice from people who are strangely pleased to insist that it is. That is all.

The radio clip applies to those in affairages. Has nothing to do with: "undue financial or familial pressure due to my long-ago decision, not wracked with guilt or regret, not wracked by lack of trust or whatever other karmic nonsense people believe is inevitable. No exes or kids seething in the background."

Let me guess, you are special and different?

ok!

When you find a method that works, Dr. Harley would love to be made aware of it for his research. He's been working on this problem a long time.

Dr. Harley does have a method that works, if followed. Personally, I believe it would work for you, if you and your husband tried it and stuck to it.

Bye

The specific problems he brings up do not apply, no. Expectation of unconditional love? No.

Problems with angry families? No. Extraordinary financial pressure? No. Angry kids? No.

My entire life in shambles? no.

So yeah, given that my marriage a) even exists and b) has existed this long in a peaceable state, I have to disagree that its origins are the single most salient fact about it. If you disagree, then that is OK with me, but I would just prefer to seek help somewhere more... helpful.

Bye. Again.

We know, you are different.

buh-bye...

You sound like my wife.
Like you, she thinks that she has a psychological reason to have an affair.
Well, her emotional needs were not being met! That is psychological!

Like you, my wife has decided I need medication!

Its a shame you will allow your marriage to be destroyed before you even consider a proven Recovery Plan.

But the origins ARE important. The origin shows that you have a method for "leaving" your marriage by moving to another man to meet your needs, rather than either (a) working on your marriage or (b) getting a divorce and being alone for some time and growing as a person before getting married again.

In this thread, you have spent more time trying to convince us that this is normal or inevitable in all marriages, than try and work on the specific issues in your marriage. Print out your whole thread and highlight how many references you have made about this (it's normal, inevitable, oh well I'm doomed anyways).

You have a pattern (as all cheaters do) of telling yourself something over and over again so much that you actually believe it - therefore you have taught yourself that you are justified in your actions.

You may have been young and stupid, yes, I think a lot of us are at age 20 - but you are still acting with the same mindset as that 20 year old childless girl. You are a grown mother now, it's time to teach your kids (and yes, I am a mother too) that when the going gets tough, you do not BAIL into the arms of another man but work it through with your husband, who you made your vows to.

I'm sure when you first met your current husband, he was simply someone who "listened", right? Just like your last husband didn't. I'm sure he was just a "crush', you rationalized, right?

You CAN change your spots but only when you start to realize that they are still there.

Since you seem fluent in the language of analogy, let me build on your analogy.

Is the problem with the doctor, or with the cancer? After all, in the other cases, the cancer responds to the doctor's treatments. But in your case, the cancer doesn't respond.

Does that mean his methods are wrong, or does it mean the cancer refuses to respond.

What you are demonstrating here is a failure to respond to the methods.

The problem is not that Dr Harley's methods don't work for cases like yours. The problem is that those who put themselves in cases like yours don't respond to know, proven methods.

The problem Dr Harley has is not with his methods, the problem are the objections, and thinking they are different presented by those who think affairs are the valid ways of exiting and entering marriages.

Dr Harley can teach you new behaviors. But you have to make up your own mind regarding your affairs and thinking prior to this point in time.

No program will work as long as those participating continue to say I will not respond to the treatment.

Can't or won't dig deep enough to realize that it's the very thinking you just voiced that is what dooms your marriage.

By rejecting the program, you continue to prove the Dr was right. Those who choose this path to exit and enter marriages, I.E. having an affair ending their prior marriage and then marrying their affair partner, do not do the work needed to build a lasting, romantic marriage.

By leaving and rejecting the program, you confirm the Dr is right in what he's said.

You willfully choose not to respond to the treatment presented.

Don't blame the Dr, blame the cancer.

Well, if I were just going to haul off and have an affair, I would do it and not ponder how to get rid of the stupid crush, neh?

Believe me, I've spent a lot of time thinking about it over the years, and I know I have a tendency toward obsessive crushing. I've always been torn about whether to tell or just wait-it-out, as I know crushes do eventually dissipate on their own. If telling will help get rid of it faster without causing a truckload of irreparable damage in the meantime, then that's clearly the thing to do. I think Harley makes a good case that telling the WHOLE truth actually brings people closer together, and wonder if I haven't underestimated my husband's ability to handle ego-bruising news.

Everyone needs some positivity about their marriage; if it can't be found here because people are so wrapped around the axle about their own past/present fears and problems, I would rather seek assistance elsewhere. From looking around at friends and relatives, my marriage is fundamentally no worse-off than anyone else's at this stage, which is why I say marriages mostly do decline over time whether you've ever had an affair or not. ALL marriages have issues at some point. They tend to intensify once you throw kids in the mix.

Mine has strengths... and weaknesses. I don't see how that puts it in some untouchable category, except that this guy's most fervent disciples insist it is.

If staying-in-love is a straightforward path the way Harley makes it sound, then I am interested in doing precisely that, rather than getting all wrapped up in mystical karmic mumbo-jumbo. Karma's an interesting exotic religious concept, but I am not religious.

As to my last husband, he was actually a pretty decent conversationalist... but a terribly absent lover. Too much porn. I tolerated the porn for a couple of years, because it seemed like it would come off as too uptight, too insecure to ban it entirely, but it always bothered me quite a lot that he'd turn down sex for videos! We could never really compromise on it; he'd always backslide from agreed-upon moderation to constant use. I had no idea such a thing as "porn addiction" existed and nobody to talk to about it. Friends mostly assured me that porn was just a Man Thing, and that resigned toleration was about the best you could do.

Our sex life was awful and the thought of sixty more years of the same was more awful. Divorce was unthinkable, as my family is quite religious and conservative. I was trying to get resigned to a lifetime of grudging, unpleasant sex, and that is when my affair started. I have never concealed any of my history from anyone-- there is no point. Knowing then what I know now, I would have absolutely banned the porn, forced him to choose between it and me, and if he chose the former would have walked out clean. I did not handle it well, but what is done is, by now, QUITE done.

Anyway, my husband started his meds today, so apparently his psychiatrist agrees with me that he's depressed. Hooray for modern medicine. Feels kind of good to write it all down, somehow... talking about it all brings back fond memories. Nobody thought it'd last six months back then, either!

Please do.
We are only interested in helping those who are actually willing to do the work it takes.

Do you not see the irony in this statement? Divorce was unthinkable, but you did it anyway. Why didn't you just divorce him FIRST instead of lowering yourself to have an affair? This is craziness.

This is one of the most disgusting and insulting things I've read on the boards in a long time. You're actually gloating about your "fond memories" of your affair? Sick.

I agree with whoever said it, you do continue to prove Dr. Harley's theory. You really are a Shmoopy come to life.

Bless your heart.

You haven't read much here have you?

We just had a very nice thread about good things about your spouse. I know several of the long threads, mine included, talk about how great things are now that we've implemented MB.

Ugh. Your arrogance and lack of repentence is astounding.

I think a lot of women do that. We're not quite as fragile and tender as some women think. Although we're not quite so hard as some stereotypes, either.


All marriages do have issues, but not all marriages decline over time.

The problem is that there are really two cultures as far as marriage is concerned, and a lot of people can be in one culture and not even know people from the other culture. In one culture, marriages do decline over time. I have heard this preached from the pulpit in church! But in the other culture, marriages do not decline over time. 20% of marriages stay wonderful, actually. They have a permanent crush.

The difference is the procedures that those marriages follow for issues.

Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce have had a good marriages for 60 years. He says that they have a conflict (difference of opinion) every hour! But the way they handle it makes romantic love the highest goal, and retains it for a lifetime.

You are here on the site with the plans to be a part of the 20%, even if you don't know anyone from that culture.

Take a read at this:

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marital Therapy?

The author is Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers, Dr. Harley's daughter. Dr. Harley's son and daughter are also marriage counselors, and also have successful marriages in the 20%.


Give the man a call. He would love to help you and your husband walk that path.

Dr. Chalmers, and Steve Harley, also do paid marital coaching/counseling, but a chat with Dr. Harley on the radio is free.

Prisca and I sat and talked about you last night, Shmoopy. We are really hoping that you will get involved in learning what it will take to build a successful marriage. Kind of discouraged because so far you are mostly getting upset with people and arguing and kind of repeatedly slamming the door to let people you know you are leaving. But kind of encouraged because you haven't left, yet.

Please give that article by Dr. Chalmers a read.

"If you want to argue and debate each point and claim you don't see the need, or claim it is impossible in your situation, then your efforts will just fizzle, I am sorry to say."

By the way, shmoopy, I have heard Dr. Harley counsel "affairages" on the radio. He is nothing but respectful. He is realistic about their chances, and tries to give everything he can to help them. He wouldn't call you "untouchable" or beat you up or whatever, but he would try to help you see what it would take to build a lifetime of romantic love.

Cool. That's all I ask, not to be treated to shrieks of "'Affairage!' You whore, may your ill-begotten children die with dust in their mouths!" Which frankly is not the impression I get of him from reading his articles, but the sound of the chorus is rather discouraging here. I'll send him an email.