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markos #2587641 01/19/12 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Dr. Harley does not advocate demands, disrespect, or anger in response to an affair at all, with only one exception: a demand that the affair END.

He has told betrayed husbands on the private forum and the radio not to express any judgment toward their wayward wives at all. Let alone anger!

Certainly I think he UNDERSTANDS these responses, but he strongly encourages people to AVOID these approaches, because they are self-destructive and make the problem WORSE. When you are angry, whatever it is you are thinking to do is the wrong thing to do.

All of the strong actions that need to be taken to combat an affair are to be taken in calm, controlled, rational manner. We don't help anybody by encouraging them to go into a rage.


Its in print, too Markos. All caps, even. In one of the SAA Q&A responses, one of the first things that Dr. Harley states to the BH is; DO NOT JUDGE HER.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
Prisca #2587642 01/19/12 09:12 PM
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I've seen Markos shaking with rage.
I've seen the murderous rage on his face. Even though he didn't murder me, obviously. He had the look. It was in control of him.

It didn't help our marriage. It left me emotionally scarred.

Dr. Harley told me that our marriage would not get better as long as he continued to have such AOs.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

markos #2587645 01/19/12 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
with only one exception: a demand that the affair END.

I am of the opinion that this demand is most effective if issued in a calm, matter-of-fact manner. Spoken without anger. Spoken firmly. Not an emotional explosion. But a declaration of war against the adultery. Not a war against the spouse.

I cannot imagine this demand being as effective if spoken hysterically, or shouted, with objects thrown, fists raised, or in any way which is out-of-control.

I was not nearly as effective when I punched my WH as I was when I said to him "You're out of here." I was very serious, calm, soft-spoken, and obviously in control of myself. Something far more fearful. Far more powerful.


HoldHerHand #2587650 01/19/12 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Reptilian brain.


IOW; see the previously posted biochemical pathway of rage. All of those neurotransmitters have a very specific physiological response. Emotion are not just "emotional," they are physical.

Yep.

Pepperband #2587675 01/19/12 09:56 PM
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The guilty emotion in all this is not rage, it is anxiety. Anxiety is the primary response to threat. It, too, is tied to fight or flight. But, part of that fight or flight response is an issue when fighting adultery; paralysis. Paralysis is what we see. Waiting, sitting still, deciding to fight or flee.

This is what drives people to goad a BS - trying to move them somewhere, anywhere... RIGHT. NOW.

Move from paralyzed anxiety to... Something... ANYTHING!

I know right? Rage?

Rage is what makes a BS make head-scratching decisions despite every reason being given to them not to. Rage is what makes a BS kick the WS out and justify it when the MB plan clearly states that separation WILL NOT aid recovery. Rage has an entire thread in "Happyville."

Rage... Rage isn't good even "controlled."

Rage is only good when it's GONE, and one instead eliminates the source or trigger (lettuce, anyone?).

Rage is the endpoint of thought, and the result of inaction.

Read again; rage is the result of inaction.

Rage is inaction...


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
HoldHerHand #2587684 01/19/12 10:03 PM
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This results in the pituitary gland producing and releasing large amounts of the adrenocorticotropic hormone, which causes the adrenal cortex to release corticosteroids. This chain reaction occurs when faced with a threatening situation.

Y'all have heard of "roid rage", right?

Unfortunately, I am currently dependent on steroids. (again) It causes me a good deal of anxiety on a regular basis. I can almost feel my anxiety taking off like a 747.
I hate the damn stuff.

Pepperband #2587692 01/19/12 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
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This results in the pituitary gland producing and releasing large amounts of the adrenocorticotropic hormone, which causes the adrenal cortex to release corticosteroids. This chain reaction occurs when faced with a threatening situation.

Y'all have heard of "roid rage", right?

Unfortunately, I am currently dependent on steroids. (again) It causes me a good deal of anxiety on a regular basis. I can almost feel my anxiety taking off like a 747.
I hate the damn stuff.

My A&P 1 teacher was adamant that we know the corticosteroid cortisol frontwards and backwards... And I took the course with him twice.

Why? Because it was pre-nursing at the community college.

What does cortisol do? Raises blood sugars, increases fat storage in the "trunk," effects blood pressure, suppresses the immune system.

When does it do this? When we are under long term stress.

Biologically, it helps us survive periods of starvation, or warfare, or being hunted.

Pharmocologically? We chemically induce the effects of long term stress to suppress the immune system as; an anti-inflammatory (mainly).

And then we can't just dump it, because the adrenal glands aren't producing due to the artificial introduction of a corticosteroid.

Stress sucks.



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
HoldHerHand #2587695 01/19/12 10:36 PM
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Yep.

NeverGuessed #2587755 01/20/12 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
I'd think we'll waste our time playing semantic games here.

I decided to address this.
I am not playing a game.
I think it's often useful to make sure we are not misunderstanding each other using a different interpretation of a word's meaning.
Not wasting my time.

Pepperband #2587773 01/20/12 08:08 AM
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I'd think we'll waste our time playing semantic games here.

See, here is where this medium is inadequate to carry on this type of discussion. Right now it's NG against the world, and okay, those odds are not totally unacceptable, but in the 18(!) posts since I last wrote, we've had introductions of chemically-introduced psycho-tropic anger issues, been sidetracked by the explanations of the body-chemistry that fuels anger (although in another thread, I'd love to learn more), observation that M-W's examples illustrate AOs (Uhh, yeah, but nothing tied them to spousal confrontation, either), and carefully-shielded threats that I'm approaching mod notification ("You aren't fully indoctrinated in the Harley way...").

And NOW you choose to return to parse my sentences from my FIRST post here, which, by the way, I posted by way of saying (paraphrasing), "Okay if you insist rage must have violence, then pick a different word, because MY use of the word, and the emotion itself, has no inclusion of violent ACTION!"

Let's recall that this whole thing began with my position that posters here, anonomously to, and isolated from, all readers, would provide a useful service by basically, "calling a 'ho' a 'ho' " if it instills in quavering BHs the necessary (and, yes, possibly reptilian rotflmao) drive to FIGHT for their own interests, as such interests are also in line with saving marriages.. That position I will not be swayed from.

NeverGuessed #2587795 01/20/12 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
I posted by way of saying (paraphrasing), "Okay if you insist rage must have violence, then pick a different word, because MY use of the word, and the emotion itself, has no inclusion of violent ACTION!"

The Webster online definition which I copied/pasted/posted did not say "action".
The definition said "feel or express". (when used as a verb)
Expression of rage could be in the form of a violent action, or could be verbal violence/written violence/painted violence/violence acted out in mime grin

Picasso's painting Guernica pops into my mind. Full of rage and visual violence.

The part of rage that is scary (to me) is the "uncontrollable" component. Especially when there is a high level of volatility and the possibility of domestic violence. Things can suddenly and unpredictably escalate.

I can't make it out if you agree or not that it is useful to understand if we might be using the word "RAGE" in different terms.

NeverGuessed #2587796 01/20/12 08:47 AM
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You're discussing rage. Right up my alley!

Rage is uncontrollable. When you are enraged, consequences for your actions cease to matter to you. Rage is what causes crimes of passion...murder.

Only once did I truly lose it, about a year after d-day. My ex and I went out with friends to have a few drinks. It was the first time I'd had alcohol since before d-day, because I was afraid of how I might react.

Sure enough, I ended up threatening several people in the club, drove over 100 mph on city streets while drunk, and told my ex that I was going to drive her to OM's house, drag her to the front door, and ring the doorbell. I actually did drive by his house, but fortunately he lived a good distance from the bar and I had time to calm down just enough.

THAT was rage. I didn't care if I killed her, myself, strangers on the road...I was completely out of control.


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NeverGuessed #2587798 01/20/12 08:49 AM
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There is nothing inadequate about this medium for this discussion. Some people just do not agree with you.

Quote
observation that M-W's examples illustrate AOs (Uhh, yeah, but nothing tied them to spousal confrontation, either)
So?


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

NeverGuessed #2587803 01/20/12 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
and carefully-shielded threats that I'm approaching mod notification

Eh? What?
I don't see it.

Krazy71 #2587804 01/20/12 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Krazy71
THAT was rage. I didn't care if I killed her, myself, strangers on the road...I was completely out of control.

((( K )))

I had a similar (less severe) experience prior to my marriage.
I discovered my long term boyfriend had a girl at his apartment.
I drank a huge glass of vodka, got in my car and drove like a crazy woman (krazy). I was going to drive off the cliff and into the Pacific.
A few blocks from the cliff, I realized I did not want to kill myself, I wanted to kill him.
So, I steered my drunken self to his apartment where I pounded on the door and punched him in the gut as soon as he opened the door.

Then, I went home. Rage exhausted.

What a dope. This was in my 20's.

Lesson here? rage + alcohol = stupid

NeverGuessed #2587809 01/20/12 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
I'd think we'll waste our time playing semantic games here.

See, here is where this medium is inadequate to carry on this type of discussion. Right now it's NG against the world, and okay, those odds are not totally unacceptable, but in the 18(!) posts since I last wrote, we've had introductions of chemically-introduced psycho-tropic anger issues, been sidetracked by the explanations of the body-chemistry that fuels anger (although in another thread, I'd love to learn more), observation that M-W's examples illustrate AOs (Uhh, yeah, but nothing tied them to spousal confrontation, either), and carefully-shielded threats that I'm approaching mod notification ("You aren't fully indoctrinated in the Harley way...").

My dear friend NeverGuessed, I have no intention of mod notification!

I do think you are off the beaten path here on anger/rage. Have you listened to Dr. Harley on this issue? (Not rhetorical question.) Would you give him a chance to persuade you to his way of thinking on this issue?

One of the best things Dr. Harley has persuaded me of is that there is no excuse for an angry outburst, ever. I cannot tell you how this has improved ever facet of my life: marriage, parenting, work, church, just going to the grocery store!

I am excited about it. I feel "evangelistic" about it. smile I wish you could learn the benefits of this, too, and I wish you'd give it a chance.

Mod notification never entered into it. (Maybe you weren't talking about me!) In my opinion, you're doing exactly what a person ought to do if they disagree with Harley: discussing it on its own thread. If you were telling a BH that he needed to draw on rage, I'd be hitting the mod notification button, but you are not doing that, I think.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Prisca #2587813 01/20/12 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Prisca
There is nothing inadequate about this medium for this discussion. Some people just do not agree with you.

NG, I married a very insightful woman, here. smile

We disagree. I believe Dr. Harley disagrees with you. I can't figure out any kind of definition of "rage" that makes "rage" anything other than an "angry outburst."

That's okay. Lots of people disagree about things. I work with, live with, go to church with people who disagree with me on lots and lots of things. We can all be respectful about it and discuss the differences.

What I want to know is if you've examined the contrary view to what you're saying.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Pepperband #2587818 01/20/12 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by NG
Rage, kept within controls

My question:

Is there such an animal?

Many people believe there is.

Dr. Harley believes they are mistaken.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
NeverGuessed #2587858 01/20/12 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
I'd think we'll waste our time playing semantic games here.

See, here is where this medium is inadequate to carry on this type of discussion. Right now it's NG against the world, and okay, those odds are not totally unacceptable, but in the 18(!) posts since I last wrote, we've had introductions of chemically-introduced psycho-tropic anger issues, been sidetracked by the explanations of the body-chemistry that fuels anger (although in another thread, I'd love to learn more), observation that M-W's examples illustrate AOs (Uhh, yeah, but nothing tied them to spousal confrontation, either), and carefully-shielded threats that I'm approaching mod notification ("You aren't fully indoctrinated in the Harley way...").

And NOW you choose to return to parse my sentences from my FIRST post here, which, by the way, I posted by way of saying (paraphrasing), "Okay if you insist rage must have violence, then pick a different word, because MY use of the word, and the emotion itself, has no inclusion of violent ACTION!"

Let's recall that this whole thing began with my position that posters here, anonomously to, and isolated from, all readers, would provide a useful service by basically, "calling a 'ho' a 'ho' " if it instills in quavering BHs the necessary (and, yes, possibly reptilian rotflmao) drive to FIGHT for their own interests, as such interests are also in line with saving marriages.. That position I will not be swayed from.


NG,

I see what you are saying. I am not sure if I agree with your use of the word rage however. Maybe I'd use "righteous indignation" as a better word to describe what you want to get.

This is a thread I have been somewhat ashamed to post on. I had a rage incident early on in recovery that almost blew our chances out of the water. When I think of rage, the image that comes to mind is the Hulk... Remember that comic? An intelligent man who's transformed by his lack of self control into this incredibly destructive creature that wreaks havoc wherever he goes.

I have a particular concern for stirring someone to this state. Why? Not because violence may or may not be there, but because of what Mel and Pepp said, the person is not thinking straight. It means if we stir someone to this level of anger, we simply don't know what their reaction may be.

I think of three words in the Old Testament that are used to describe rage:

1) zahaf: To storm. Like Asa was in 2 Chronicles 16. He acted, but not the way he was supposed to...

2Ch 16:10 Then Asa was angry with the seer and put him in the stocks in prison, for he was in a rage with him because of this. And Asa inflicted cruelties upon some of the people at the same time.

Another instance of Zahaf is used here:

2Ch 28:9 But a prophet of the LORD was there, whose name was Oded, and he went out to meet the army that came to Samaria and said to them, "Behold, because the LORD, the God of your fathers, was angry with Judah, he gave them into your hand, but you have killed them in a rage that has reached up to heaven.

2) Rawgaz is another word used: to quiver (with any violent emotion, especially anger or fear)-

2Ki 19:28 Because you have raged against me and your complacency has come into my ears, I will put my hook in your nose and my bit in your mouth, and I will turn you back on the way by which you came.

3)The word translated as fury from the Hebrew is ebraw: Rage or outburst of passion

Psa 7:6 Arise, O LORD, in your anger; lift yourself up against the fury of my enemies; awake for me; you have appointed a judgment.

In each of these three instances rage is never described as a good thing.

the one time rage is used in the New Testament, it is a quote of the Psalms (why do the nations rage and the people plot in vain Psalm 2) in Acts 4:25.

In fact we are often cautioned in the NT about simply being angry or provoked (Be angry and sin not) simply because sin so easily accompanies anger, and with rage it displays itself in an even stronger way.

In some ways though, I **do** agree with you. We need to find a productive way to provoke or move a BS to action, but we need to do it in a way that moves the person to righteous action and not unrighteous action.

I don't want to provoke someone using the "ends justifies the means" model. To me, using anger or rage towards a person and not the actions, feels like a manipulation of the person's distress to get action in an unhealthy way. If the goal is to disparage the WS and not the world-view they have adopted and the actions they are performing, then we have missed the point of saving their marriage. And it is about saving the marriage, right? We want the BS to be angry at what the WS is doing, but we don't want to instill hate for the WS unnecessarily.

One last note before I stop: Many BS' are protective of the WS, which is good. The problem is they are protective of the wrong things for the wrong reasons. I think our goal should be to move them to protect the RIGHT things (the kids, the marriage, their health and spiritual well being, etc..) and to do it for the right reasons.

OK.. One last note... smile

Contra-mundum isn't a bad thing, but it needs to be for the right reason.

cv


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celticvoyager #2587891 01/20/12 10:42 AM
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In some ways though, I **do** agree with you. We need to find a productive way to provoke or move a BS to action, but we need to do it in a way that moves the person to righteous action and not unrighteous action.

Yes!

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